220 réponses à ce sujet

[Farangbaa]

Pretty much this. That ending was horrid from the standpoint that it took an extended cut and several DLC entries to actually have it make any sort of sense. When it was purely straight out of the vanilla packaging it came out of bloody nowhere and was such a tonal shift that I nearly got whiplash trying to deal with it. Just a SMALL amount of back writing would have saved that ending. Perhaps even giving the Catalyst a different motivation that wasn't circular and didn't fly completely in the face of the Rannoch mission we completed hours before where it's possible to make the Geth and Quarians allies to AMAZING effect. Even just removing that choice would have helped. Instead it felt like the writers for the ending didn't get the memo for the rest of the script and you had no choice but to go along with it. Because you cannot tell me that synthetics and organics will never get along when your primary example of such an argument can be made to work together, and with very little lingering animosity at that.
 
I don't mind sad. My headcanon for ME3, as I refused to buy the DLC after that ending, is a lot sadder than what we were given. If I didn't enjoy tragedy I wouldn't be as much of a fan of Berserk as I am today either. But it needs to make sense and not be there simply to manipulate your emotions. That's why I hate the idea of mandatory death in anything unless there is a damn good reason for it. I've long since grown numb to the ploys of writers who feel that throwing a couple deaths in will somehow make me care, consequences and sense be damned. It isn't tragic, it's senseless.

Must.. resist... urge... but.. can't

Geth-Quarian peace is meaningless. On a timescale of billions of years two weeks of peace are insignificant. (I mean, geeze, how many ceasefires have tehre been between Israel and Hamas? Lasting peace is still far from an option)

And even if the Geth-Quarian peace is eternal, it still mean nothing.

'All organics will create synthetics'. So great, the Geth and Quarians play nice now, after the Geth have first exterminated 99% of the Quarian population and then figured 'this... might be bad' so they let 1% go. And only because they didn't know the consequences of wiping out their creators... which I find a rather weak explanation, but oh well.

In the MEU there are countless species. Countless oppertunities to create new AI. Which they will, there's no doubt about that. (Because, the problem the Catakyst states is well known thing in the AI world, i.e. the technological singuraity. This is holding no one back in creating AI, of which I;m glad. We have to at least try to equate God and create life). And for what it's worth, every AI that we know of in the game succeeds in at least destroying 99% of it's (direct) creators.

[Bethgael]

 

When Character die for something/one important to them (Alistair from DA:O, Mordin, Legion). - Emotional

When it's your/mine fault (suicide mission). - Emotional

When you leave someone behind knowing they would die while trying to complete your mission, but them not knowing that and still hoping that you'll return to help/save them. - Emotional

 

It did't feel necessary for someone to be left behind, so others could escape Nightmare demon. And it shouldn't have been PC's choice.

 

 

Worse, it was genuinely pointless.

 

Here's the thing: once you were out of the Fade, you had to close the rift behind you, which would in the words of the spirit "banish the Nightmare to the end corners of the Fade" and breaking Cory's hold on the wardens not yet bound to him via demons, and ending his fake Calling on those who survive.

You have to leave, so someone does have to get that Nightmare to look anywhere but you.

Right. Okay, so far.

 

One of the others volunteers (because your party has already run off without you. Thanks, guys. Can anyone imagine them actually doing that? No? Neither can I).

Hawke/Warden is not dead when you leave.

So, out you go, close the door, then turn around and open the effing thing again and get Hawke/Warden back--cos presumably Hawke/warden is not riding the nightmare, right?

No. Instead, you leave them there, make a speech, act like they're dead, and run around closing all the other rifts, therefore closing any other door that Hawke/Warden could possibly use to escape--and meanwhile, they're bodily in the Fade, something people keep telling you (ad nauseum) is so veryvery dangerous, because, magisters and Black City and whatnot.

I had Alistair/Hawke my first playthrough, so it was emotional--for me. Then I had to stop and think about what my Inquis would do (she'd received a letter from the HoF--an Amell mage romancing him--saying not to let Alistair die, so there was the deciding kicker--also my Inquis was pro-mage/Warden and Ericka Hawke was a mage who had helped Anders (who is still a Warden, Ericka! As is your brother, whose life was saved by them! And, btw, your second cousin!)/romanced and not killed Anders so her hypocrisy annoyed my Inquis to no end, so, sorry Hawke. She was sad about Varric's sad though).

Then when I thought about it later, the plot hole in the writing just made me angry. Contrived and unnecessary "death", yet again, Bioware, all wrapped up in an ex-PC and (possibly) a favourite DA:O character to make it feel important. /sigh

[Joseph Warrick]

@Psychevore

 

You're telling a story. The peace sends a message: That peace is possible. Then the catalyst says that peace is impossible. We have two messages. This makes that part of the story bad.

 

If you want to invalidate the first message as meaningless, then what you do as the writer of the story is to make the geth and quarian go back to killing each other. That's how you deliver the message that it is inevitable. By showing it. Fallout 3 did this in the Tenpenny Tower ghoul massacre.

 

What might have happened in ME3, I suspect, is just that the critical path of the game was designed for new players. New players cannot attain peace between geth and quarians, so they never see that peace is possible. There is no narrative conflict so that bit makes sense in that case. Then, alternative scenarios were added and there was a lack of coordination amongst writers.

 

--

 

On topic: emotional immersion doesn't require death. The approval thing at the Orlesian ball keeps the tension up without violence.

[Teddie Sage]

If this game had a screw up option like the Suicide Mission from ME2, I guess it would be a fun way to replay the game. However, I'm emotionally invested in my companions well being and personal issues before doing the last battle, I like seeing these people changing based on my decisions. Games don't need to have sad moments all the time for me to feel some sort of attachment to the stories. 

[panamakira]

The death that kept being emphasized was Justinia's, problem was I didn't care AT ALL about her death. It was hard to connect to Leliana and Cassandra about it.It would've been interesting if there was a risk of losing someone we cared for. 

[JeffZero]

Ah the suicide mission. My second biggest gripe about ME2, right after being space dr Phil. (and then people complain about being an errand boy in DA:I.. lol)

All game long they tell it's gonna be harrrddddd, deaths are very likely blablabla. And then you do the thing and even a deaf, blindfolded monkey can finish it with zero casualties.

Talk about anti climax.

Haha. Yuuuup. Hence why I orchestrate a couple of casualties every time. Feels far more thematically appropriate to me.

[In Exile]

I agree with this. It isn't so much that a game needs to be all death and darkness, but a franchise like Dragon Age does need to have a dark undercurrent which the player is often reminded of.

There are still genuinely emotionally satisfying and memorable moments in Dragon Age, such as the conclusion to Josephine's romance, but this satisfaction generally only occurs with the cheerier elements of the story. Attempts to explore the less merry aspects of life, death and the world have more often than not been rather forced, even sloppy, in my opinion.

Not to come off like a nostalgic fanboy, but Origins absolutely nailed the atmosphere for me, and this is something which doesn't diminish no matter how many times I play it. When I played its successors however, I have to say I never really got a sense of darkness or, in some cases, even maturity. There were certainly attempts to convey this, but for several reasons, from a flawed concept, to lack of attachment to characters and, for me, the art style, moments which were intended to be (and indeed had the potential to be) gritty and emotionally nourishing often came across as shallow at best (such as the Warden questline in DA:I) and juvenile at worst ( such as Leandra's death in DA II).

I'd definitely like to see BioWare move back to the approach they took with Origins and, to some extent, the Mass Effect games. To be honest, I do wish they'd cease to indulge the desire for the now ubiquitous "snark" in their games. This leads to things like sitting in judgement over a wooden box and seducing an octogenarian aristocrat with a Superman pose, and really does give the impression that Dragon Age is a series that doesn't even take itself seriously anymore.

It's all subjective. DAO had no darkness for me. It was incredibly heroic - like DAI. The only people who suffered were effectively faceless mooks. Bioware did the same thing it always did. It worked for you in DAO. It didn't in DAI. It might in DA4. Bioware's milked the same design regardless.

[phaonica]

Worse, it was genuinely pointless.

 

Here's the thing: once you were out of the Fade, you had to close the rift behind you, which would in the words of the spirit "banish the Nightmare to the end corners of the Fade" and breaking Cory's hold on the wardens not yet bound to him via demons, and ending his fake Calling on those who survive.

You have to leave, so someone does have to get that Nightmare to look anywhere but you.

Right. Okay, so far.

 

One of the others volunteers (because your party has already run off without you. Thanks, guys. Can anyone imagine them actually doing that? No? Neither can I).

Hawke/Warden is not dead when you leave.

So, out you go, close the door, then turn around and open the effing thing again and get Hawke/Warden back--cos presumably Hawke/warden is not riding the nightmare, right?

No. Instead, you leave them there, make a speech, act like they're dead, and run around closing all the other rifts, therefore closing any other door that Hawke/Warden could possibly use to escape--and meanwhile, they're bodily in the Fade, something people keep telling you (ad nauseum) is so veryvery dangerous, because, magisters and Black City and whatnot.

I had Alistair/Hawke my first playthrough, so it was emotional--for me. Then I had to stop and think about what my Inquis would do (she'd received a letter from the HoF--an Amell mage romancing him--saying not to let Alistair die, so there was the deciding kicker--also my Inquis was pro-mage/Warden and Ericka Hawke was a mage who had helped Anders (who is still a Warden, Ericka! As is your brother, whose life was saved by them! And, btw, your second cousin!)/romanced and not killed Anders so her hypocrisy annoyed my Inquis to no end, so, sorry Hawke. She was sad about Varric's sad though).

Then when I thought about it later, the plot hole in the writing just made me angry. Contrived and unnecessary "death", yet again, Bioware, all wrapped up in an ex-PC and (possibly) a favourite DA:O character to make it feel important. /sigh

 

I agree with this completely. I'm all for having choices that you cannot get a good outcome for, but the setup for this one was so irritating. Like, where the f**k did my party members go, because I'd have been demanding volunteers. Not to mention that you just leave Hawke or the Warden for dead, physically in the Fade, where no one is supposed to be when clearly you have the ability to open doors directly to the raw fade if you care enough.

[Bethgael]

I agree with this completely. I'm all for having choices that you cannot get a good outcome for, but the setup for this one was so irritating. Like, where the f**k did my party members go, because I'd have been demanding volunteers. Not to mention that you just leave Hawke or the Warden for dead, physically in the Fade, where no one is supposed to be when clearly you have the ability to open doors directly to the raw fade if you care enough.

It worked, a bit in a RP way, for me, in hindsight, because in that runthrough I had Blackwall in the party. Later... well, offstage, my Inquisitor (who didn't leave him behind in Orlais to die, even so, because she never left any of the Inquisition behind--especially after Hawke) all but yelled at him (if she'd been a yeller) that of all the people in the Fade, it should have been Blackwall who left his waste-of-space arse behind instead of Hawke.

Blackwall didn't disagree. The bastard.

But, yes. Giant Gaping Plot Rift, guys.

Perhaps there is/was a "rescue Hawke/Warden" DLC planned. Even if there is/was, that will never explain why it wasn't done immediately, when you knew exactly where the One You Left Behind is.

(And if there is, and they go with "heat of the moment; didn't think of it" I will throw something. )

[OMGsideboob]

...Because characters dying is becoming a trope beaten into the ground by developers without brains??

 

If done well, it can be wise... but its RARE for death to be done well. Borderlands 2, Dishonored, Oblivion, GTA 4, Modern Warfare 3... and thats just games I can remember using death as a "ante" in stories just for the hell of it...

 

Only Bioware games and The Last of Us ever really made me give a damn about a character dying. Its just a facetious way of writing IMO...

[KaiserShep]

I agree with this completely. I'm all for having choices that you cannot get a good outcome for, but the setup for this one was so irritating. Like, where the f**k did my party members go, because I'd have been demanding volunteers. Not to mention that you just leave Hawke or the Warden for dead, physically in the Fade, where no one is supposed to be when clearly you have the ability to open doors directly to the raw fade if you care enough.

 
I don't know how well this "volunteer" thing would work, especially for the characters that are less devoted to the idea of taking one for the team, especially since two people are already insisting that they stand in. I don't think any of the characters you'd be bringing with you would agree, and there's no real way to fight about it. I guess if the PC suddenly had a case of magical persuasion, but that's not likely to be very convincing.

 

You just know that Vivienne would just say no and it would end there lol

[phaonica]

It worked, a bit in a RP way, for me, in hindsight, because in that runthrough I had Blackwall in the party. Later... well, offstage, my Inquisitor (who didn't leave him behind in Orlais to die, even so, because she never left any of the Inquisition behind--especially after Hawke) all but yelled at him (if she'd been a yeller) that of all the people in the Fade, it should have been Blackwall who left his waste-of-space arse behind instead of Hawke.

Blackwall didn't disagree. The bastard.

But, yes. Giant Gaping Plot Rift, guys.

Perhaps there is/was a "rescue Hawke/Warden" DLC planned. Even if there is/was, that will never explain why it wasn't done immediately, when you knew exactly where the One You Left Behind is.

(And if there is, and they go with "heat of the moment; didn't think of it" I will throw something. )

Haha! I agree that it should have been Blackwall! When I was trying to figure out who to leave, I decided to headcanon that Blackwall stayed behind. I didn't know anything about Blackwall except that he was a Warden, didn't seem to have any attachments, and hadn't given me any indication that he would be anything less than honored to die for this cause. When I got back to Skyhold, I pretended he wasn't there. Didn't use him in my party and never spoke to him again.

[phaonica]

I don't know how well this "volunteer" thing would work, especially for the characters that are less devoted to the idea of taking one for the team, especially since two people are already insisting that they stand in. I don't think any of the characters you'd be bringing with you would agree, and there's no real way to fight about it. I guess if the PC suddenly had a case of magical persuasion, but that's not likely to be very convincing.
 
You just know that Vivienne would just say no and it would end there lol

I took Blackwall, Dorian, and Iron Bull with me to Adamant. I didn't know Blackwall very well, then, and I didn't have any reason at the time to suspect that he might chicken out. Maybe he would have, maybe he wouldn't have.

And maybe if they're not interested in taking one for the team, they shouldn't have joined my army....

 

Maybe I'll start making sure there's always one space on my team for someone who can get left behind in an emergency, lol.

[Mark of the Dragon]

Because the only emotion worth having in a game is sadness and the only way to have that is to kill everyone. Alright then.

No but without sadness at times everything else loses its impact just like a totally depressing game would eventually lose impact if it killed everyone.

[dreamgazer]

"But, but ... why did you railroad their deaths, BioWare? Whyyyy?! It's an RPG! I should be able to prevent this! AGENCY!"

[Thane4Ever]

I think part of it is that it's very easy in this game to do everything right - to please your companions at least enough that they don't enter crisis mode or leave and to make decisions that aren't catastrophic.  In ME2 and Origins it was really easy to make choices you'd regret later.  In DA:I you really have to work at being a bastard.  Sometimes the conflict is what initiates the emotional drama.

[dreamgazer]

In ME2 and Origins it was really easy to make choices you'd regret later.

In ME2? Really?

[Saricc]

Varric's "Where's Hawke" made me laugh when i heard it. Good writing bioware at a supposed emotional scene.

Uh. That's a little weird that you laughed at that, tbh. 

[Thane4Ever]

In ME2? Really?

I'm thinking of failing to properly upgrade the Normandy.  

[dreamgazer]

I'm thinking of failing to properly upgrade the Normandy.

That's not really a "choice", though. No more than choosing to buy a weapon or armor upgrade at one of the kiosks.

[Balek-Vriege]

  I really liked this game's plot and honestly it's the first Bioware game since Mass Effect 1 that I actually started a serious second playthrough with.  However, I found myself playing the exact same character again because all the others seem to be generic in comparison and lacking, well, emotional depth.  I'm again playing a female elf mage Inquisitior Lavellan as the story seems to be almost written for it.  Almost every important scene gets extra dialogue that ties your character in and in the late game an elven character feels so immersed in the plot, I can't see myself playing any other race.

 

  From the extra dialogue at Haven with Solas, the Mage/Templar war, the way you and Solas talk about the orb after Haven is destroyed, the extra dialogue and pleas to ancient elves and certain gods to help the "the people" who need them, to the final battle with Corypheus calling you rattas or whatever, the extra dialogue with elven characters not only makes the tragedy of the elves very personal, but also adds a sense of irony to it all.  Especially when it comes to Corypheus with his human pride as he tries to ascend to godhood, only to be stopped by a lowly dalish elf of all creatures, that happened to accidently and humbly stumble upon his fade ritual, technically has the power in his eyes to become a god, but in the end doesn't want it (leading to the stare down and inquisitor troll grin).

 

  Not to mention the Solas final romance scene to my surprise is probably the best romance scene I have seen in any game.  That's saying something when it's basically a breakup no matter what you do (for now anyways).  It adds a whole other level of tragedy to the Inquisitor's story and makes the main plot even more immersive for what little is left by that point.

[bluonblu]

I just recently played and finished Assassin's Creed IV. {SPOILERS FOR AC4} To keep it short, i felt that Edward Kenway and him losing almost all his friends whether it being Blackbeard or Mary Reed gave a sort of emotional depth to the game that was fairly repetitive in gameplay and its other tired mechanics. Why do i use AC4 as in example? Well because i just played it and it made me feel more close and attached to the side characters in that game than in Dragon Age: Inquisition simply because you feel loss. Loss that Edwards friends die and that stark reminder seeing them in a sort of flashback all sitting at a table drinking at the end of the game.

Dragon Age Inquisiton lacks this and therefore makes everything feel safe and dandy. There is no weight, no risk, you already won by the time you reach the Temple of Mythal. It makes the game forgettable without a meaningful death(s). How can a tired out franchise like Assassin's Creed do it better than the supposed "masters of writing" at Bioware?

 

Apart from the people who did mass effect(did beautiful death scenes), it seems bioware are too scared to kill off your companions. It makes this game feel unimportant and not memorable because of it, you need things that punch you in the gut, deaths that break your heart. Life or death situations. Dragon Age Inquisiton sorely needed it and properly done scenes. 

 

It's sad that Assassin's Creed IV made me ponder more about its ending than Dragon Age Inquisition. I really dont know what to say Bioware, you are slinking more and more into a dark hole with your egregious and safe writing. 

 

I feel more creeped out watching Leliana's development than if they had simply killed her off. It doesn't always have to be a grand, glorified death scene. - Just finished her personal quest in Valence and you can see how invested she becomes in justifying herself, how she becomes more and more ruthless (all in the name of the grand cause). Haven't completed my playthrough yet, but somehow I doubt we're headed to a sugary sweet future for her.  

 

For me, it's heartbreaking enough, since her character in DAO (while not naive) seemed to have found peace and strove to be a better person. 

[Shahadem]

Death does not equal emotional depth. Emotional depth comes from good writing and relateability.

 

There was absolutely nothing emotional about the death when you are supposed to be fighting the big bad demon in the Fade because of the horrible writing and removal of the player's agency. Plus the binary choice created a false dichotomy. Maybe if the demon had remained hidden, and then only attacked us just as were leaving the Fade so that Stroud was the only person still in the Fade and he was the one who always died, that could work. But it would have to be a huge surprise that the demon was still alive until it strikes at the last minute and by then everyone else has already left the Fade and the demon had stuck its leg right through Stroud's chest, paralyzing him so he couldn't reach for his magical instant heal elfroot potion.

[txgoldrush]

Emotional depth =/ death of a character

 

A lot of deaths pissed me off in ME3 rather than making me sad or angry. Thane and Anderson could both survive if Bioware wouldn't take control of Shepard away from player. Inquisition has plenty of emotional scenes. The moment where your people starts singing The Dawn Will Come after they realize you survived Haven was far more emotional for me than any ME deaths that were forced on us.

 

DAI team doesn't have to take any lessons from ME3, it should be other way around actually, since DAI does everything right what ME3 did wrong.

Wrong

 

Mass Effect 3 did the biggest thing right that DAI did completely wrong. ME3, 95% of the time focused on what it does well, unlike DAI which can't connect the narrative with the exploration and gameplay well.

 

ME3 did deaths right. Why?

 

Theme.

 

The main theme of Mass Effect 3 (not the whole series, just 3) is victory through sacrifice. Thats why there are "forced deaths", unlike Mass Effect 2, where the theme was about preperation and leadership. Thane, Legion, Nyreen, Andersen, Tarquin Victus, and Mordin's death fits the theme of the game.  And many others like Eve and even Conrad Verner can die saving others. There is a common theme in most of that games deaths, its far from forced. Also take into account the choices that are made that sacrifice others and their lives and destiny to achieve the goal, for example, Garrus talking about the ruthless calculus of war. Nevermind Shepard also fits this as well and the choices at the end reflect this theme.

 

Sorry but narrative ALWAYS is more important than role playing. Hell, even a role playing heavy game like Planescape Torment, the narrative takes over in the end with one similiar ending for all playthroughs.

[txgoldrush]

"But, but ... why did you railroad their deaths, BioWare? Whyyyy?! It's an RPG! I should be able to prevent this! AGENCY!"

LOL....basically what this fanbase has turned into.

 

They don't care about the narrative or its themes, they just want to do what they want. Ugh.