220 réponses à ce sujet

[Berkilak]

Mature = grimdark = quality, amirite?

[KaiserShep]

Mordin's death is the only real standout for me. Legion's is great when he's killed by Shepard, but very questionable when he just dies because of weird wireless connection reasons in the peace or pro-geth ending. Thane actually has a good final moment, but damn that Kai Leng fight. Kirrahe's death if Thane is gone is even worse though. Why the hell would this hold-the-line guy be standing there cloaked the entire time?

[txgoldrush]

Mordin's death is the only real standout for me. Legion's is great when he's killed by Shepard, but very questionable when he just dies because of weird wireless connection reasons in the peace or pro-geth ending. Thane actually has a good final moment, but damn that Kai Leng fight. Kirrahe's death if Thane is gone is even worse though. Why the hell would this hold-the-line guy be standing there cloaked the entire time?

Because he knows that he cannot try and take Leng in a one on one fight, and who said that he just stood there? He is cloaked, he could have jumped in the way.

 

Legion dies in a thematic appropriate manner along the main theme of the game, thats why it works.

[abisha]

Mordin's death is the only real standout for me. Legion's is great when he's killed by Shepard, but very questionable when he just dies because of weird wireless connection reasons in the peace or pro-geth ending. Thane actually has a good final moment, but damn that Kai Leng fight. Kirrahe's death if Thane is gone is even worse though. Why the hell would this hold-the-line guy be standing there cloaked the entire time?

 

mordin was just stupid, first he kills for it in ME2 then you kill him for the sole reason.

also  quarian got what was coming to them, if you travel for over 300 years what's a other 50 years adapting to a other planet atmosphere.

kind of stupid story telling to be honest.

[KaiserShep]

Alright, so this will be my last bit of yet another Mass Effect derailment, but:

 

Because he knows that he cannot try and take Leng in a one on one fight, and who said that he just stood there? He is cloaked, he could have jumped in the way.

 

Legion dies in a thematic appropriate manner along the main theme of the game, thats why it works.

 

Whatever man. This entire scene is just really poorly constructed. Kai Leng is by himself, surrounded by potentially 4 armed combatants. He should not have been able to do anything if the fourth person was there. Everyone suffers from cutscene incompetence so that Kai Leng can succeed in killing someone, not to mention the convenient impenetrable barrier that pops up when need be. This is certainly not a high point in the game. At least Thane gets some cool moves before he gets skewered, unlike Kirrahe. Basically, I cannot tolerate a playthrough where Kirrahe is alive and Thane is dead. The Salarian Councilor's death is much better.

 

mordin was just stupid, first he kills for it in ME2 then you kill him for the sole reason.

also  quarian got what was coming to them, if you travel for over 300 years what's a other 50 years adapting to a other planet atmosphere.

kind of stupid story telling to be honest.

 

Mordin doesn't kill anyone in ME2 over the genophage; he potentially kills Maelon because of his brutal experimentation. Mordin was clearly troubled by the ethics of the genophage, hence his soul searching and exploration of various religions.

 

Whatever one feels the quarians deserve is not really important. The only thing that matters is how well the scene is put together, and how much sense the results of a certain choice makes. Basically, I maintain that killing Legion is the only end for this character that makes sense to me, because the alternative is a dumb connection error.

 

Anyway, in relation to this thread, it basically boils down to this: If I have to put more effort into reasoning my way around a character's death, or turn my brain off entirely, the emotional payoff wanes significantly.

[ChaosMarky]

Mandatory death =/= emotional depth.

I felt a lot of emotion in the Denerim gates scene, and no one died. That's not to say that no one should ever die, but the whole who-to-sacrifice among companions doesn't really have much of an effect on me, at least nothing positive.

 

i agree. The "dawn will come" sing-along segment was also very emotional as well. People looking for deaths are just too emo... This isn't game of thrones..

 

You want "emotion"? Go play ME3 and reach the ending. You'll definitely feel a very overwhelming emotion: ANGER... and then DEPRESSION... and then ACCEPTANCE.

[elrofrost]

This game has no drama. There are a few moments that come close. A FEW. One of the biggest complaints, even some of the critics who praised the game brought this up - that your companions feel more like tools then actual companions. 

 

The only connection I feel with this game is the lore.

 

Now ME3. Kai Lang was HORRIBLE. Almost ruined the game for me. Another example of BW using a character from a book (or in his case a comic) that most never heard of. just like Cole. When I first met Cole I was like, "Who the hell is this?". I had to stop and google him. 

 

But the rest of ME3.. you gonna tell me thinking you almost lost Grunt (assuming he didn't die in ME2 and you completed his ME2 quest) didn't move you a bit? The first time you saw Mordin die? Or, if you betrayed Wrex, having to kill him on the Citadel? And speaking of betrayal... is there any in DAI?

DAI lacks emotional connection. The most I cared about was the lore.

 

PS: That's the best example of emotion in this game: the "Dawn will Come" scene at the end of DAI? LOL  
 

Like I said, this game has a few moments. A few. And most of them aren't that gut twisting. Sure the song was nice, but the rest of that scene - discovery of Skyhold -  I was pissed. I felt like stabbing Solas in the face: "You gonna JUST NOW tell me about an empty fortress built in the mountains?" What? And of course, my next question would've been how he knew about it.

Modifié par elrofrost, 05 janvier 2015 - 12:08 .

[Antergaton]

I can see what you mean. There is part of me that is annoyed at the idea that all could survive. In terms of how characters act in DA:O and DA2 they are basically of free mind and you can lost them all (but 2) if you try. Many you can just not recruit but many turn on you. Sten questions what you are doing and can leave if you give the wrong answer. Lelliana dies in Temple of Ashes. Even Alistair can leave before even the Archdemon is killed. In DA2, both Bethany and Carvar can die/leave, Anders is a dick, Isabela can run off or you can give her away.

 

Yet in this, you recruit them and they stay. End of. Infact, why is it only Sera you can tell to leave?... No one turns on you if you do the wrong thing, sure they 'disapprove' of your actions but only that.

 

To me it's that David Gaider and his world wants to remain intact because he wants to use the characters. Us killing them isn't to his plans. Big hint Leliana should be dead.

[txgoldrush]

Alright, so this will be my last bit of yet another Mass Effect derailment, but:

 

 

Whatever man. This entire scene is just really poorly constructed. Kai Leng is by himself, surrounded by potentially 4 armed combatants. He should not have been able to do anything if the fourth person was there. Everyone suffers from cutscene incompetence so that Kai Leng can succeed in killing someone, not to mention the convenient impenetrable barrier that pops up when need be. This is certainly not a high point in the game. At least Thane gets some cool moves before he gets skewered, unlike Kirrahe. Basically, I cannot tolerate a playthrough where Kirrahe is alive and Thane is dead.

 

 

Mordin doesn't kill anyone in ME2 over the genophage; he potentially kills Maelon because of his brutal experimentation. Mordin was clearly troubled by the ethics of the genophage, hence his soul searching and exploration of various religions.

 

Whatever one feels the quarians deserve is not really important. The only thing that matters is how well the scene is put together, and how much sense the results of a certain choice makes. Basically, I maintain that killing Legion is the only end for this character that makes sense to me, because the alternative is a dumb connection error.

Please.

 

The thing is, killing Kai Leng is not Shepards priority, his or her priority is portecting the councilor. Take notes, Shepard and his companions are blocking the exit where the councilor flees while Kai Leng fights Thane. He has a cloaking device, what makes you think he wouldn't just break of off Thane and go after the councilor if Shepard tries to get involved in the fight and move from his position? Nevermind that Shepard may not have a clear shot if Thane is fighting Kai Leng. The only "incompetence" is Kai Leng not immmediately shooting the councilor, but then again, he is trying to frame Shepard for the murder for Udina.

[KaiserShep]

Just like Cole. When I first met Cole I was like, "Who the hell is this?". I had to stop and google him.

I actually had no issue with Cole, since Solas kind of covers the basics of what he is fairly well. Whatever he was or did in the novel didn't really matter at that point. The only real issue with him is that his introduction varies greatly based on the mission you choose. His intro is obviously better in the Templar route.

[Antergaton]

 

Now ME3. Kai Lang was HORRIBLE. Almost ruined the game for me. Another example of BW using a character from a book (or in his case a comic) that most never heard of. just like Cole. When I first met Cole I was like, "Who the hell is this?". I had to stop and google him.

 

But the rest of ME3.. you gonna tell me thinking you almost lost Grunt (assuming he didn't die in ME2 and you completed his ME2 quest) didn't move you a bit? The first time you saw Mordin die? Or, if you betrayed Wrex, having to kill him on the Citadel? And speaking of betrayal... is there any in DAI?
 

 

I never understood Kai Lang, he appeared and I was supposed to think him a threat because someone said I should. There was a history already I knew nothing about. The same for Cole, I did the same thing as you I thought 'Who the hell is this?'. At least with Dorian you can make contact with him before making the Templar/Mage choice.

 

I didn't look Cole up though, I just never used him. I'm not even kidding, 2 playthroughs and I think I've used him like once. Horrible character and placement.

 

Yet, after all you and Mordin went through, if I play renegade, it's the first real instance when renegade becomes more than just "doing questionable things to get the right result" it's just "a bad thing for the bad reasons".

[txgoldrush]

I never understood Kai Lang, he appeared and I was supposed to think him a threat because someone said I should. There was a history already I knew nothing about. The same for Cole, I did the same thing as you I thought 'Who the hell is this?'. At least with Dorian you can make contact with him before making the Templar/Mage choice.

 

I didn't look Cole up though, I just never used him. I'm not even kidding, 2 playthroughs and I think I've used him like once. Horrible character and placement.

 

Yet, after all you and Mordin went through, if I play renegade, it's the first real instance when renegade becomes more than just "doing questionable things to get the right result" it's just "a bad thing for the bad reasons".

Kai Leng was a henchmen at best, a teritary antagonist, on the level of Benezia in ME1. He is not that important. Cole on the other hand was a companion. Its much worse here. But whats really bad in DAI went back to talking codex entries and weak or small time character development. This is what hurts Cole some, but not as bad as Dorian, Sera, or Vivenne.

 

And shooting Mordin? In a case, its for the best. Hell the best EMS outcome from that arc is have Wreav as leader, but Eve alive because the data was saved in ME2. You then have to shoot Mordin, get both Krogan and Salarian help, while Eve is worth more EMS than Mordin. It is indeed pratical.

[KaiserShep]

Actually, he was on a higher level than Benezia, since unlike Benezia, he was encountered multiple times and was far more active throughout some major plot points in the game. Benezia was just hanging out in some frozen wasteland with bugs, waiting to fight us, then give us information, then fight us again and die with quite possibly one of the corniest lines this side of Trolls 2.

 

To Kai Leng's credit, his death scene is far cooler, and more visceral.

[elrofrost]

 

And shooting Mordin? In a case, its for the best. Hell the best EMS outcome from that arc is have Wreav as leader, but Eve alive because the data was saved in ME2. You then have to shoot Mordin, get both Krogan and Salarian help, while Eve is worth more EMS than Mordin. It is indeed pratical.

Yeah. But what a heartbreak. I could see doing this if Wrex was dead from ME1 (in my first play-though he was - why i killed off Ashley). I never shot Mordin though. I doubt I even could. And it's just a game, I know.

 

And that's what missing from DAI. They only companion I'd hesitate in killing would be Bull. And that's because he's fun in party banter (when it happens). 

[abisha]

I never understood Kai Lang, he appeared and I was supposed to think him a threat because someone said I should. There was a history already I knew nothing about. The same for Cole, I did the same thing as you I thought 'Who the hell is this?'. At least with Dorian you can make contact with him before making the Templar/Mage choice.

 

I didn't look Cole up though, I just never used him. I'm not even kidding, 2 playthroughs and I think I've used him like once. Horrible character and placement.

 

Yet, after all you and Mordin went through, if I play renegade, it's the first real instance when renegade becomes more than just "doing questionable things to get the right result" it's just "a bad thing for the bad reasons".

 

must agree on this, cole is indeed very sloppy and total not interesting.

was lot more interesting if it was a bound demon or something lot more sinister.

but i find it now a whining ****** in need, like i wanna help blah blah blah.

[Blooddrunk1004]

Wrong

 

Mass Effect 3 did the biggest thing right that DAI did completely wrong. ME3, 95% of the time focused on what it does well, unlike DAI which can't connect the narrative with the exploration and gameplay well.

 

ME3 did deaths right. Why?

 

Theme.

 

The main theme of Mass Effect 3 (not the whole series, just 3) is victory through sacrifice. Thats why there are "forced deaths", unlike Mass Effect 2, where the theme was about preperation and leadership. Thane, Legion, Nyreen, Andersen, Tarquin Victus, and Mordin's death fits the theme of the game.  And many others like Eve and even Conrad Verner can die saving others. There is a common theme in most of that games deaths, its far from forced. Also take into account the choices that are made that sacrifice others and their lives and destiny to achieve the goal, for example, Garrus talking about the ruthless calculus of war. Nevermind Shepard also fits this as well and the choices at the end reflect this theme.

 

Sorry but narrative ALWAYS is more important than role playing. Hell, even a role playing heavy game like Planescape Torment, the narrative takes over in the end with one similiar ending for all playthroughs.

Are you saying that because you dislike big areas, side quests and exploration? The narrative was fine as it comes to narrative connecting with world that is just based on your view if you like big areas or if you like linear corridor areas like ME series did (last two games at least). And yes i don't like Skyrim when it comes to how plot was handled but i like it in Inquisiton.

Narrative more important than role playing? You can make both equally as good and Bioware managed to do that in some of their previous games.

ME3 certainly wasn't one of them though. They couldn't even handle side quests and objectives properly.

 

My main problem with ME3 was it's theme, it didn't had enough "ME theme" which is what made previous games so great. it was trying to be to much like Halo and Gears of War. Few deaths were handled well like Mordin, Legion or Tali I don't mind forced deaths, i actually support them. What i do mind however is when my protagonist starts acting like an idiot, Thane could have easily been saved if Shepard would help him take down Kai Leng, instead he was just watching him getting stabbed. Same goes for Anderson, if TIM doesn't kill him Shepard automaticaly shoots him without even allowing us to decide anything, which makes 0 sense.

 

They never took control away from us as the Inquisitor sure he/she says few stuff on her own sometimes but main thing is i felt like Inquisitor was my character, i didn't felt like that in ME3. Shepard was someone else, he wasn't my character anymore.

 

But this going off topic so i don't think i will bother with more posts on why i dislike ME3 and why i like Inquisition.

[KaiserShep]

ME3 was OK with its actual side missions, since the combat is fun. The fetch quests were really lame though. The eavesdrop mechanic was a very bad idea that should never have been implemented, and I'm glad that DA:I didn't fall into a similar trap. At least the NPC's actually call you or you can just talk to them directly before the quest starts.

[Antergaton]

And shooting Mordin? In a case, its for the best. Hell the best EMS outcome from that arc is have Wreav as leader, but Eve alive because the data was saved in ME2. You then have to shoot Mordin, get both Krogan and Salarian help, while Eve is worth more EMS than Mordin. It is indeed pratical.

 

Shooting him is not for the best. There would be other ways to stop him, reason with him, heck delay him and let the place fall/blow up before he can do it. 

 

What made the characterisation better though is Mordin's sacrifice is mentioned several times after and each time your Shepard remains blank or doesn't react like they should. While doing it felt wrong, the game reacted amazingly.

 

 

must agree on this, cole is indeed very sloppy and total not interesting.

was lot more interesting if it was a bound demon or something lot more sinister.

but i find it now a whining ****** in need, like i wanna help blah blah blah.

 

To me also, I thought his design was bad too, a hat and without the hat he looks stupid. Massive head.

[bluonblu]

This game has no drama. There are a few moments that come close. A FEW. One of the biggest complaints, even some of the critics who praised the game brought this up - that your companions feel more like tools then actual companions. 

 

The only connection I feel with this game is the lore.

 

Now ME3. Kai Lang was HORRIBLE. Almost ruined the game for me. Another example of BW using a character from a book (or in his case a comic) that most never heard of. just like Cole. When I first met Cole I was like, "Who the hell is this?". I had to stop and google him. 

 

But the rest of ME3.. you gonna tell me thinking you almost lost Grunt (assuming he didn't die in ME2 and you completed his ME2 quest) didn't move you a bit? The first time you saw Mordin die? Or, if you betrayed Wrex, having to kill him on the Citadel? And speaking of betrayal... is there any in DAI?

DAI lacks emotional connection. The most I cared about was the lore.

 

PS: That's the best example of emotion in this game: the "Dawn will Come" scene at the end of DAI? LOL  
 

Like I said, this game has a few moments. A few. And most of them aren't that gut twisting. Sure the song was nice, but the rest of that scene - discovery of Skyhold -  I was pissed. I felt like stabbing Solas in the face: "You gonna JUST NOW tell me about an empty fortress built in the mountains?" What? And of course, my next question would've been how he knew about it.

 

This game has no drama. There are a few moments that come close. A FEW. One of the biggest complaints, even some of the critics who praised the game brought this up - that your companions feel more like tools then actual companions. 

 

The only connection I feel with this game is the lore.

 

Now ME3. Kai Lang was HORRIBLE. Almost ruined the game for me. Another example of BW using a character from a book (or in his case a comic) that most never heard of. just like Cole. When I first met Cole I was like, "Who the hell is this?". I had to stop and google him. 

 

But the rest of ME3.. you gonna tell me thinking you almost lost Grunt (assuming he didn't die in ME2 and you completed his ME2 quest) didn't move you a bit? The first time you saw Mordin die? Or, if you betrayed Wrex, having to kill him on the Citadel? And speaking of betrayal... is there any in DAI?

DAI lacks emotional connection. The most I cared about was the lore.

 

PS: That's the best example of emotion in this game: the "Dawn will Come" scene at the end of DAI? LOL  
 

Like I said, this game has a few moments. A few. And most of them aren't that gut twisting. Sure the song was nice, but the rest of that scene - discovery of Skyhold -  I was pissed. I felt like stabbing Solas in the face: "You gonna JUST NOW tell me about an empty fortress built in the mountains?" What? And of course, my next question would've been how he knew about it.

 

Comes down to your definition of drama, I guess. For me, DAI has plenty and not (only) the choices that obviously set up a great change (such as who's left behind in the Fade.)  

It's more: Cassandra embodies and lives her faith, only to find out the grim truth behind the order of Seekers. Even if I disliked her character (which I don't), I couldn't help but feel for her at that point. Or the romance with Dorian - heartbreak is virtually encoded in there. Sure, if the Inquisitor doesn't just make it a fling, they have a healthy relationship... but it's clear that at one point he'll leave to reform Tevinter. A noble, but arguably futile act. Hmmm, how about the history of Crestwood's refugees? 

 

There's tons of content that has plenty of drama, at least by my standards.    

[FiveThreeTen]

I never understood Kai Lang, he appeared and I was supposed to think him a threat because someone said I should. There was a history already I knew nothing about.

For me Kai Leng is like the Human-Reaper baby and TIM in ME2 => Cartoonish characters that contributed to turn the ME serie into a joke for me. His lack of developement was just the nail on the coffin.

 

I actually had no issue with Cole, since Solas kind of covers the basics of what he is fairly well. Whatever he was or did in the novel didn't really matter at that point. The only real issue with him is that his introduction varies greatly based on the mission you choose. His intro is obviously better in the Templar route.

Actually, I think what he did in the book and his relationship with Rhys/Evangeline/Lambert is very important for his character developement. He explained it to you sure, but in a very Cole-lish manner that must be a fairly confusing for those who didn't read Asunder.

I have the same problem with the whole reversal of tranquility business (that kinda sparked the Mage/Templar War) which was just mentionned on a note hidden in a cave in the Western Approach and scattered in some Codex entries.

[SnakeCode]

I think Dragon Age has always been lacking emotionally and whilst a lack of significant deaths plays a part it's not all of it. Bioware gets constant praise for their writing whereas outside of the character writing (for companions at least)  I've always found them to be lacking quality in this department. Compare any Dragon Age title to The Last of Us or even ACIV and it becomes apparent how lacking in emotional depth these games are.

[Cantina]

I understood the need for Hawke to survive at the end of DA2, it made sense.

 

However I will say, yes, there is no sense of loss, no sense of danger.

 

When it came time to choose between letting Hawke or Stroud stay. It was a no brainer choice for me. Stroud stayed.

 

Even then the choice was stupid. It’s a giant spider. We can’t all just kill the damn thing and be done with it? Oh sure you can fight a dozen freaking bears that seem to appear out of nowhere, but a giant spider? Nope sorry.

 

The main choices in the game, had no consequences. None.

 

I choose to ally with the Mages. I thought perhaps at one point I’d end up hearing about how a Mage turned into an abomination and

I had to quickly deal with the situation. Nope nothing happened.

 

Later, I chose to make an alliance with The Wardens and the text telling me that some Wardens may still be vulnerable to Cory’s control. Here I was thinking: “Great, I am going to hear about how a handful of Wardens wandered off under the control of Cory and I have to track them down and deal with those.” Nope. Again, nothing happened.

 

I allowed Morrigan to drink from the well. This seemed to be the only choice out of all the choices that had any effect on the game and the world around the game.

 

The ending was the worst. Just dropped off on top of the mountain and fight. Uh. OK. Then there was NO choice to allow my Inquisitor to die or to live.

 

Not to mention throughout the game my female Inquisitor seemed to come off so emotionless compared to Hakwe in DA2.
 

Then you have the companions. OK, sure you can p!ss them off and some may leave. But why should I have to p!ss them off to get them to leave?

 

I for one, despise Vivienne. I want her to leave. Yet, I have no option to tell her to leave nor maxing out her disapproval allows me to do so.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy playing DAI. However compared to DAO or hell DA2, it came off as hollow when it comes to choices and the sense of danger.

[Dutch]

Reading some of the comments about me3. I completely agree about it being more emotional than Dragon age Inquisition.

[Dutch]

I understood the need for Hawke to survive at the end of DA2, it made sense.

However I will say, yes, there is no sense of loss, no sense of danger.

When it came time to choose between letting Hawke or Stroud stay. It was a no brainer choice for me. Stroud stayed.

Even then the choice was stupid. It’s a giant spider. We can’t all just kill the damn thing and be done with it? Oh sure you can fight a dozen freaking bears that seem to appear out of nowhere, but a giant spider? Nope sorry.

The main choices in the game, had no consequences. None.

I choose to ally with the Mages. I thought perhaps at one point I’d end up hearing about how a Mage turned into an abomination and
I had to quickly deal with the situation. Nope nothing happened.

Later, I chose to make an alliance with The Wardens and the text telling me that some Wardens may still be vulnerable to Cory’s control. Here I was thinking: “Great, I am going to hear about how a handful of Wardens wandered off under the control of Cory and I have to track them down and deal with those.” Nope. Again, nothing happened.

I allowed Morrigan to drink from the well. This seemed to be the only choice out of all the choices that had any effect on the game and the world around the game.

The ending was the worst. Just dropped off on top of the mountain and fight. Uh. OK. Then there was NO choice to allow my Inquisitor to die or to live.

Not to mention throughout the game my female Inquisitor seemed to come off so emotionless compared to Hakwe in DA2.

Then you have the companions. OK, sure you can p!ss them off and some may leave. But why should I have to p!ss them off to get them to leave?

I for one, despise Vivienne. I want her to leave. Yet, I have no option to tell her to leave nor maxing out her disapproval allows me to do so.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy playing DAI. However compared to DAO or hell DA2, it came off as hollow when it comes to choices and the sense of danger.

Great Post.

[ThreeF]

 

I for one, despise Vivienne. I want her to leave. Yet, I have no option to tell her to leave nor maxing out her disapproval allows me to do so.

 

 

 

This kind of puzzles me, it's obvious from miles away what sort of person Vivienne is in her recruiting mission, I mean if one has such strong hate for her personality, when recruit her in the first place, or you just want the pleasure of kicking her out?

About the other thing, I'm going to say it again, not everyone want to experience loss and despair and failure in games. Point in case every thread made about Hawke/Warden choice, most people who didn't left Hawke behind did it because they were too attached and didn't want bad things happen to that character, that says a lot about the player mindset. I think most like some sort of dramatic tension, but few  would enjoy real consequences of it.

Look at DA2 too and how many were/are complaining about not being able to stop Anders, or that it had to be Anders, or that in the end you were not able to prevent anything at all. I think DA2 was Biowares attempt at dark and grim and futile, such stories are difficult to write and make them appealing to a large audience at the same time. Most play to win not to lose.