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[Gill Kaiser]

"Only in dreams do we hear whispered the names of Geldauran and Daern'thal and Anaris, for they are the Forgotten Ones, the gods of terror and malice, spite and pestilence. In ancient times, only Fen'Harel could walk without fear among both our gods and the Forgotten Ones, for although he is kin to the gods of the People, the Forgotten Ones knew of his cunning ways and saw him as one of their own."

 

I was rereading the story of Fen'Harel in the context of what we now know about him, and it struck me that the Forgotten Ones pretty much have to be spirits of some kind. And they could be the source of the Blight, or blighted themselves.

 

One of the main acts consistently attributed to Fen'Harel is that he locked away the elven pantheon and the Forgotten Ones. Whether through trickery or as an act of rebellion, nothing has proven that story false, and it doesn't seem inconsistent with what we see of Solas in DA:I. Fen'Harel was able to achieve the "Betrayal" because although he was kin to the elven pantheon, the Forgotten Ones were familiar with him and his ways, and saw him as one of their own. 

 

We know now that the elven gods were physical gods, much like the pharaohs of ancient egypt. Mortal mages who became deified rulers and achieved incredible power. Fen'Harel was therefore a mortal elf, which fits with his being kin to the rest of the pantheon. However, the Forgotten Ones trusted him not because he was kin, but because of his behaviour.

 

What kind of behaviour seems pivotal to Solas' character? His approach towards and appreciation of spirits and the Fade. Assuming that this is a character trait specific to him, rather than elven gods in general, it seems to me very likely that the Forgotten Ones were demons or spirits whom only Solas/Fen'Harel ever attempted to communicate with or to understand. While the other elven gods saw only destructive or demonic forces emerging from the Void (which could be, perhaps, a realm deep within the Fade), Solas is exactly the type of person who would try to understand them rather than immediately seeing them as enemies.

 

According to the stories, he locked the respective pantheons into their realms of origin, the "abyss" and the "heavens". What does this mean in reality? Based on hints from Cole and elsewhere, it is probable that the elven gods were locked into the Eluvian network, which in the context of a physical elven pantheon may just as well be the heavens. On the flip side, if the Forgotten Ones were spirits and were therefore native to the Fade, it seems logical that Solas would have locked them away in the Fade.

 

So, where is a well-known locked, dark and pestilential area of the Fade that is always present? The Black City. The source of the Blight as we know it today, ever since the Second Sin. But was it the original source? From the red lyrium idol, and the following codex entry, we know that the Blight existed before the Second Sin and the creation of the darkspawn:

 

"One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts. She began stalking the Forgotten Ones, wicked things that thrive in the abyss. Yet even a god should not linger there, and each time she entered the Void, Andruil suffered longer and longer periods of madness after returning.

 

Andruil put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands. She howled things meant to be forgotten, and the other gods became fearful Andruil would hunt them in turn. So Mythal spread rumors of a monstrous creature and took the form of a great serpent, waiting for Andruil at the base of a mountain.

 

When Andruil came, Mythal sprang on the hunter. They fought for three days and nights, Andruil slashing deep gouges in the serpent's hide. But Mythal's magic sapped Andruil's strength, and stole her knowledge of how to find the Void. After this, the great hunter could never make her way back to the abyss, and peace returned."

 

From the codex of Andruil, it seems that at one point Andruil decided to hunt the Forgotten Ones, entering the Void, and in doing so became dark, twisted, mad and plague-ridden. This, to me, indicates Blight. If the Forgotten Ones are the (a?) source of the Blight, that adds credence to the notion that they are locked in the Black City, which we know is Blighted for sure, from the evidence of Corypheus' proven existence as a darkspawn.

 

This theory doesn't ultimately prove anything about the original source of the Blight, but it does suggest that the Forgotten Ones are the earliest historical reference we have to the Blight's existence. There is nothing that came before. Whether the Forgotten Ones are inherently malicious and corrupt, or whether they themselves were corrupted at some point (it seems unlikely that even Solas would want to become friends with 100% evil entities who spread corruption wherever they went), who can say?

 

In DA:I, Mythal states that the "world was betrayed". I can think of nothing suitably cataclysmic enough to warrant that description more than the creation of the Blight. What was the betrayal, and what is the Blight? It seems the heart of the Dragon Age lore ultimately revolves around finding an answer to that question.

[Gill Kaiser]

This thread should perhaps have been posted in the Story, Campaign & Characters subforum. Is there any chance it could be moved?

[Kurogane335]

I may be wrong, but I find interesting that there is only three Forgotten Ones named in games and that we know of three Forbidden Ones, mighty demons who exist since at least the beginning of the Tevinter Imperium. Also, in the Masked Empire, Imshael knew Felassan, and I believe that the later was a follower of Fen'Harel (much like Abelas was a slave of Mythal), which would imply that the Dread Wolf's worshippers dealt with the Forbidden Ones ans it would be too much of a coincidence for me if the three mighty demons talked in Tevinter legends aren't the same entities which frighten the elves.

[Angarma]

Hm, fascinating.

 

According to World of Thedas, in -2800 Ancient, the Old Gods begin to whisper to humanity from The Black City.

 

Just something small to add, for now.

[Gill Kaiser]

Hm, fascinating.

 

According to World of Thedas, in -2800 Ancient, the Old Gods begin to whisper to humanity from The Black City.

 

Just something small to add, for now.

From what point of view are the World of Thedas entries written? I assume they're written in-universe, like codex entries, so they're fallible.

 

So presumably at that time, the city was still Golden? Considering we know that the Old Gods are physically buried beneath the earth, they must communicate through the Fade while sleeping. Perhaps the Old God bodies are physical prisons for Fade entities that are native to the Black City...

 

Ugh, it's difficult to speculate.

[flabbadence]

It could also be that it just appears Golden. And the illusion shatters the second Cory and his friends step into the place.

 

Was it ever mentioned what exactly the magisters were expecting to find in the golden city originally? I can't remember. Did they think they would see their gods?

[Antergaton]

It could also be that it just appears Golden. And the illusion shatters the second Cory and his friends step into the place.

 

Was it ever mentioned what exactly the magisters were expecting to find in the golden city originally? I can't remember. Did they think they would see their gods?

 

"Usurp heaven." I think the Old Gods wanted freedom so had the Magister's crave power and got them to get into the Golden City to get power so they in turn free the Old Gods. Simple really.

[Taear]

It could also be that it just appears Golden. And the illusion shatters the second Cory and his friends step into the place.

 

Was it ever mentioned what exactly the magisters were expecting to find in the golden city originally? I can't remember. Did they think they would see their gods?

 

There's never a point that Cory calls it the Golden City so that suggests that maybe it has ALWAYS been Black.

 

Also - when you listen to his journal entries in the Shrine of Dumat it reveals that Cory doesn't know who the Maker is. Which really changes what they expected to do and find in the City.

[Robert Trevelyan]

Makes me wonder...

 

What *if* the Elven Gods are the Old Gods. That genuinely Fen'harel locked them away in The Fade, for whatever reason, and just as is stated in Andruil's codex entry the longer they spent their the more tainted they became.

 

Mythal, having been murdered before the Elven Gods were locked away, continued to reside in the mortal plane, as Flemeth and/or her daughters.

 

The remaining 5 deities though became so tainted, that they eventually evolved into the Old Gods of Tevinter. Occasionally finding a way OUT of the Fade, and into the depths of the physical world, just as the First Darkspawn may have done. Afer all the First Darkspawn exited the Black City somehow, and entered the Deep Roads.

 

Each Elven God may have then become an Archdemon, one for each of the 5 Blights to date.

 

It might also explain Solas' contempt for The Grey Wardens. After all, this is an order which could essentially be seen to have been conceved to kill his former friends.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

First, how to you get that the Elven gods might have been mortal. Ancient elves themselves were immortal so, even if the gods were elves same as others of the time, they would be immortal.

 

As far as I understand it, the magisters wanted to serve the old gods in person, specifically Dumat for Cory. That didn't work out so well and, Dumat was the first Archdemon.

[Robert Trevelyan]

First, how to you get that the Elven gods might have been mortal. Ancient elves themselves were immortal so, even if the gods were elves same as others of the time, they would be immortal.

 

As far as I understand it, the magisters wanted to serve the old gods in person, specifically Dumat for Cory. That didn't work out so well and, Dumat was the first Archdemon.

 

 

But what if Dumat was previously an Elven God, tainted and twisted by the Abyss.

 

What if all of the Old Gods who called out to the Tevinters were the twisted Elven Gods trying to escape where Fen'Harel had imoprisoned them?

[Taear]

But what if Dumat was previously an Elven God, tainted and twisted by the Abyss.

 

What if all of the Old Gods who called out to the Tevinters were the twisted Elven Gods trying to escape where Fen'Harel had imoprisoned them?

 

He's not. There's too many Elven Gods and not enough Old Gods and the Old Gods started speaking to Humanity WELL before the fall of Arlathan - we're talking a difference of around 2000 years.

[Abidos]

 

First, how to you get that the Elven gods might have been mortal. Ancient elves themselves were immortal so, even if the gods were elves same as others of the time, they would be immortal.

 

 

I'm also wondering about this. I've seen several posts claiming that it is now cannon that the elven gods were elevated elven nobles/mages but nowhere have I seen anything of the like mentioned in the games or books.  The closest that I found was that this is something Morigan believes while you visit the temple of Mythal, but even she is no longer certain of this after she meets Flemeth,

[Robert Trevelyan]

According to David Gaider, Ancient Tevenes accredited the creation of the world to the same deity the Chantry calls "the Maker", although the ancient Tevenes did not call him that. They were also aware of his relation to the Golden City. They chose to revere the Old Gods instead, who they believed were not creators nor were they created, believing them to be outside "the Maker"s creation plan. According to the Chantry, this practice eventually resulted in the Maker sealing the Old God's away underground.

 

What we know is that Dumat whispered to the ancient magisters, promising them untold powers if they were to enter the Golden City. Whether it was Golden and it went black the moment they entered it, or it was black all along is a point of mystery. We just know that the ancient magisters invaded the Golden City because they wanted the power Dumat promised them.

 

It's possible Corypheus doesn't know that "the Maker" in Tevinter's time and "the Maker" from the Chantry overlap, or he simply refuses to believe he exists because he is silent (ironic considering Dumat is silent towards Corypheus in DA:I).

 

 

Anybody else think that The Maker sealing away the Old Gods and Fen'Harel sealing away the Elven Gods could well be a different interpretation of the same set of events?

[Robert Trevelyan]

He's not. There's too many Elven Gods and not enough Old Gods and the Old Gods started speaking to Humanity WELL before the fall of Arlathan - we're talking a difference of around 2000 years.

 

 

I'm beginning to question whether the Fall of Arlathan and Fen'Harel's betrayal actually happened within relation to each other, though.

 

For one, I thought we are told at the Temple of Mythal that Elven in-fighting was responsible for the Fall, starting problems long before the Gods were lost to them.

[Reznore57]

It could also be that it just appears Golden. And the illusion shatters the second Cory and his friends step into the place.

 

Was it ever mentioned what exactly the magisters were expecting to find in the golden city originally? I can't remember. Did they think they would see their gods?

 

The "Golden Light" , they thought or were told the Golden Light was the power of the Gods themselves.

Instead well they got darkness , but did get some Godlike power.It's really difficult to kill Cory , he can mimic the Calling ("The Song") etc

 

Anyway it's never clear how they got the memo , If something whispered in their dreams...well demons do that too.

So how did they know it was the Gods.???

Also the lore about the Tevinter Old God religion is terribly thin when you think about it.

[Robert Trevelyan]

The "Golden Light" , they thought or were told the Golden Light was the power of the Gods themselves.

Instead well they got darkness , but did get some Godlike power.It's really difficult to kill Cory , he can mimic the Calling ("The Song") etc

 

Anyway it's never clear how they got the memo , If something whispered in their dreams...well demons do that too.

So how did they know it was the Gods.???

Also the lore about the Tevinter Old God religion is terribly thin when you think about it.

 

 

I think it's more that, certainly up until Inquisition, we haven't really interacted with any significant part of the Imperium. So they've never really been fleshed out until now.

 

I feel sure that in future games or DLC things *will* be fleshed out. But not neccessarily in a fashion that eveybody will be happy with.

[spyroware]

Well personally I’m totally sold to the Old Gods – Elven Gods Crossover.

 

Trying to accommodate everything that is going on makes for a weird theory but hey, I think it’s plausible:

 

At first there were the Old Gods, that is, super powerful dragons. These dragons became attracted to the elvhen society because of their affinity to magic or perhaps they were invited by Fen’Harel. They took on elvhen aspects (much like WoW dragons) and taught them their magic. Fen’Harel became a god like them, but not exactly like them. Anyway, he knew them as Old Gods and as the elvhen pantheon. Perhaps the populace had no idea of their dragon aspect.

 

But they were not good rulers, they warred with each other and elvhen society suffered. So Fen’Harel/Solas rebelled by tricking them to go into Uthenera and physically sending the whole of Arlathan to the Fade. It is very likely that he created the Veil and Arlathan as a place more magical than worldly was cast off in the Fade. Simultaneously he sealed their dragon aspects to the depths of Earth. We know that the Grey Wardens know the whereabouts of the physical tombs of the Old Gods, they’re just inaccessible.

 

The trapped elvhen aspects of the Old Gods intent on escaping they devise the Blight as a way to influence the physical world. They whisper to Tevinter and teach them more or less the same things that had taught to the elves. They are specific: come to the Golden City and set us free. They do so but they find nothing. [This can be debated, whether they found nothing or they found something they didn’t expect or they didn’t know what to look for where they got there or maybe they just got scammed]. This unleashes the Blight to the world at large, that is their taint parasitising on life trying return to their Old God dragon bodies making them as whole again as possible.

 

Now that’s the main theme but there are things we have to think about things like Mythal not being sealed in the Fade. Perhaps Mythal was the more sympathetic to her adoptive people unlike the other Gods and became a true friend to Fen’Harel. That passage with Andruil maybe a story about how she acted in a way to protect the bashfulness of the other gods that were getting the elvhen society torn up. Maybe that’s what got her betrayed and murdered in the end by her own brethren? Maybe that was the final straw for Fen’Harel/Solas to blow everything up?

 

The problem with that Andruil entry is that DAI pretty much showed beyond any doubt that elven lore as we know it is fanciful stories at best. Though I doubt the writing team wrote a zillion of fake entries they should be interpreted as openly as possibly. Same with Fen'harel-Maker conflation, certain events are probaby different interpretations. Maybe The first Tevinters were human associates of Fen'Harel's rebellion, thus the connection. See also Dalish Origin in DA:O.

 

More complicated is trying to reconcile the Blight with things like red lyrium. My best idea is that before the Old Gods shifted their support to Tevinter they attempted to influence the world more directly. Lyrium being more physical than magical remained in our part of the world post-separation, but it naturally thinned the Veil around it, so their first failed attempt resulted in tainting lyrium with the Blight in the Primeval Thaig. We know that certain elves fled to dwarven thaigs like the Cadash to escape enslavement and the god worshipping statues in the Primeval thaig could signify something like that. But consuming red lyrium made people crazy rather than darkspawn. Realising that they need people to physically get to the Fade to get infected they then moved to fuelling Tevinter blood magic cults.

 

Heck maybe the Qunari are their next influence race in succession after the Imperium turned Andrastian, an experiment of dragonblood infused Kossith (Iron Bull says the Kossith were very different from what the Qunari are now), with a social structure of fierce obedience to assigned roles, perfect for taking over when the time is right. But that’s a story for another time. Just we shouldn't ignore the Dragon element of the Gods. Flemythal can turn into a dragon and is intensely interested in the soul of an Archdemon, the Well of Sorrow can make Morrigan turn into one too. [Solas can’t shapeshift into one that we know of, singling him out of the Old God/Elven Pantheon]

 

Solas simply regrets what he has done. He’d rather have a warlike high society than the current choice of alienage/troglodyte/slave for elves. The orb was possibly an artifact used in the creation of the Veil, and therefore could be used in its undoing. But he couldn’t use it after his slumber so where to go? Naturally to someone who actually went there and was in the presence of the Gods – Corypheus. Yet Corypheus during the end game he cries "help me Dumat IF you exist." Wanting to bring back the old gods and the glory they brought to the elves may be why he secretly hates the Grey Warden, as they are known to be able to neutralise the power of Old Gods - let's not say that we are sure they outright kill their souls.

[Robert Trevelyan]

Well personally I’m totally sold to the Old Gods – Elven Gods Crossover.

 

Trying to accommodate everything that is going on makes for a weird theory but hey, I think it’s plausible:

 

At first there were the Old Gods, that is, super powerful dragons. These dragons became attracted to the elvhen society because of their affinity to magic or perhaps they were invited by Fen’Harel. They took on elvhen aspects (much like WoW dragons) and taught them their magic. Fen’Harel became a god like them, but not exactly like them. Anyway, he knew them as Old Gods and as the elvhen pantheon. Perhaps the populace had no idea of their dragon aspect.

 

But they were not good rulers, they warred with each other and elvhen society suffered. So Fen’Harel/Solas rebelled by tricking them to go into Uthenera and physically sending the whole of Arlathan to the Fade. It is very likely that he created the Veil and Arlathan as a place more magical than worldly was cast off in the Fade. Simultaneously he sealed their dragon aspects to the depths of Earth. We know that the Grey Wardens know the whereabouts of the physical tombs of the Old Gods, they’re just inaccessible.

 

The trapped elvhen aspects of the Old Gods intent on escaping they devise the Blight as a way to influence the physical world. They whisper to Tevinter and teach them more or less the same things that had taught to the elves. They are specific: come to the Golden City and set us free. They do so but they find nothing. [This can be debated, whether they found nothing or they found something they didn’t expect or they didn’t know what to look for where they got there or maybe they just got scammed]. This unleashes the Blight to the world at large, that is their taint parasitising on life trying return to their Old God dragon bodies making them as whole again as possible.

 

Now that’s the main theme but there are things we have to think about things like Mythal not being sealed in the Fade. Perhaps Mythal was the more sympathetic to her adoptive people unlike the other Gods and became a true friend to Fen’Harel. That passage with Andruil maybe a story about how she acted in a way to protect the bashfulness of the other gods that were getting the elvhen society torn up. Maybe that’s what got her betrayed and murdered in the end by her own brethren? Maybe that was the final straw for Fen’Harel/Solas to blow everything up?

 

The problem with that Andruil entry is that DAI pretty much showed beyond any doubt that elven lore as we know it is fanciful stories at best. Though I doubt the writing team wrote a zillion of fake entries they should be interpreted as openly as possibly. Same with Fen'harel-Maker conflation, certain events are probaby different interpretations. Maybe The first Tevinters were human associates of Fen'Harel's rebellion, thus the connection. See also Dalish Origin in DA:O.

 

More complicated is trying to reconcile the Blight with things like red lyrium. My best idea is that before the Old Gods shifted their support to Tevinter they attempted to influence the world more directly. Lyrium being more physical than magical remained in our part of the world post-separation, but it naturally thinned the Veil around it, so their first failed attempt resulted in tainting lyrium with the Blight in the Primeval Thaig. We know that certain elves fled to dwarven thaigs like the Cadash to escape enslavement and the god worshipping statues in the Primeval thaig could signify something like that. But consuming red lyrium made people crazy rather than darkspawn. Realising that they need people to physically get to the Fade to get infected they then moved to fuelling Tevinter blood magic cults.

 

Heck maybe the Qunari are their next influence race in succession after the Imperium turned Andrastian, an experiment of dragonblood infused Kossith (Iron Bull says the Kossith were very different from what the Qunari are now), with a social structure of fierce obedience to assigned roles, perfect for taking over when the time is right. But that’s a story for another time. Just we shouldn't ignore the Dragon element of the Gods. Flemythal can turn into a dragon and is intensely interested in the soul of an Archdemon, the Well of Sorrow can make Morrigan turn into one too. [Solas can’t shapeshift into one that we know of, singling him out of the Old God/Elven Pantheon]

 

Solas simply regrets what he has done. He’d rather have a warlike high society than the current choice of alienage/troglodyte/slave for elves. The orb was possibly an artifact used in the creation of the Veil, and therefore could be used in its undoing. But he couldn’t use it after his slumber so where to go? Naturally to someone who actually went there and was in the presence of the Gods – Corypheus. Yet Corypheus during the end game he cries "help me Dumat IF you exist." Wanting to bring back the old gods and the glory they brought to the elves may be why he secretly hates the Grey Warden, as they are known to be able to neutralise the power of Old Gods - let's not say that we are sure they outright kill their souls.

 

 

Though, as you say, it doesn't all perfectly fit I do think you're on to something there. Matches fairly well with the conclusions I've been coming to myself.

 

Weirdly, of course, this could well mean that Solas is plausibly the being which many have interpreted as The Maker.

 

I still personally think that Solas was also possibly Shartan.

[Gill Kaiser]

First, how to you get that the Elven gods might have been mortal. Ancient elves themselves were immortal so, even if the gods were elves same as others of the time, they would be immortal.

 

As far as I understand it, the magisters wanted to serve the old gods in person, specifically Dumat for Cory. That didn't work out so well and, Dumat was the first Archdemon.

 

I meant mortal as in "could be killed", and to signify that they were born as a normal person, rather than being spawned from the Fade or popping into existence as fully-formed deities. Of course, as ancient elves they didn't age, but neither did any of their non-god subjects.

 

That said, Mythal survived death in a fashion, so the elven gods had means of immortality of a sort... but I think DAI suggests that they were magical, borne of experience and power, rather than innate.

[Gill Kaiser]

 

I'm also wondering about this. I've seen several posts claiming that it is now cannon that the elven gods were elevated elven nobles/mages but nowhere have I seen anything of the like mentioned in the games or books.  The closest that I found was that this is something Morigan believes while you visit the temple of Mythal, but even she is no longer certain of this after she meets Flemeth,

 

It's mainly the evidence of Solas' existence and things he says. Solas states that the elven gods were not gods, and he himself seems to be a normal elven mage, albeit with a vast amount of knowledge and experience. When he speaks of his childhood, spending time exploring the Fade, and being born in a small village (now a ruin), I think he was telling the truth. It doesn't smack of fabrication like some of his other explanations for his past.

 

If that's true, Fen'Harel was born a normal elf, and achieved "godhood" through magical power and experience, like the rest of the elven pantheon.

[In Exile]

There's never a point that Cory calls it the Golden City so that suggests that maybe it has ALWAYS been Black.

Also - when you listen to his journal entries in the Shrine of Dumat it reveals that Cory doesn't know who the Maker is. Which really changes what they expected to do and find in the City.

DG confirmed at one point that there were records that described it as golden that predated the Blight. He left it open shfher these were reliable entries but his suggestion was that the idea if a perpetually black city was not right.

[TOply]

If Arlathan is the Golden City, and the old Tervinter Dragon Gods and the Elven Gods are one and the same, maybe Solas and/or Mythal placed the key to freeing the imprisoned gods in Arlathan then moved it into the Fade, and created the veil as a barrier to keep it away from their agents. Then when the magisters set foot in the city, some kind of failsafe kicked in, turned it black, and cursed the intruders, turning them into darkspawn but because they were guided by the old gods via blood magic, they were still linked to their masters and were compelled to seek them out.

 

p/s: I only glean lore from boards and wiki so my theories could be way off =p

[xnarcosysx]

I'm beginning to question whether the Fall of Arlathan and Fen'Harel's betrayal actually happened within relation to each other, though.

For one, I thought we are told at the Temple of Mythal that Elven in-fighting was responsible for the Fall, starting problems long before the Gods were lost to them.

Yes. The infighting that occurred after they were sealed away. This has been thoroughly discussed.

[xnarcosysx]

He's not. There's too many Elven Gods and not enough Old Gods and the Old Gods started speaking to Humanity WELL before the fall of Arlathan - we're talking a difference of around 2000 years.

You're wrong. 9 elven gods with 2 that were still in the physical realm. Mythal and Fen ' Harel. That leaves 7 sealed away. Same as the 7 old gods/archdemons