Is there any meat to this theory besides them both being old cities? Because if not then this just seems like aimless conjecture. There are a lot of old cities. They don't all have to be the same one.
Dude, this is "the" old city of the dragon age. It was a city made is a time mage was just like breath and the unimaginable was common place. of couse the city can be in the fade.
Like you, I am under the impression that the Golden City was viewable as golden until the Magisters attempted to invade. Which means that the city was still golden after Arlathan's fall. I don't know if anything has been published that suggests that the city was either golden or viewable before Arlathan's fall.
We already know the city was not golden when the magesters entered. the fact the old god dumat want to get back there so much and he /she is elven base point to this.
We already know the city was not golden when the magesters entered. the fact the old god dumat want to get back there so much and he /she is elven base point to this.
If they could see it in the Fade, why would they call it the Golden City if it was black the whole time?
The Maker never gets any love in any theories. It's a shame. It really is like most people agree that in this fantasy world all the 'gods' (old or elven) exist but The Maker does not.
It is the Maker's existence that for me throws many Black City theories out the window. I think it's simpler than just large city disappeared, arrived in a different place (Golden City existed in the fade before Arlathan was destroyed).
Golden City was the seat of the maker, the Tevinter Magister's were tempted by the Old Gods to take the Golden City by going into the fade. Did they not see that the 'Golden City' was Black before going there? Considering everyone now can see the Black City when entering the fade (dreaming) surely the Magister's saw a Golden version. They forced their way in and turned it black. Blight, darkspawn etc, all pretty much as is after.
I think it's more along the lines of the devs said the Maker will never be proven to exist. The fact we know the elven gods exist gives more credence to the maker not being real, weather that's actually true or not we may never know.
They also said the maker would never be proven not to be real.
At least until the maker returns to light their fires as prophesized in origins by that turned to stone Tevinter Seer who also apparently foretold what Corypheus was going to do back in witch-hunt.
The Maker is one of those "do nothing" kind of gods, unknowable and unprovable, but not disprovable either.
He will never do anything that will be directly attributable to him, so for the purposes of lore discussions about the true nature of reality and history in Thedas he may as well be discounted entirely.
Pretty much that's what makes it debatable I suppose. I still like playing a nay sayer in DA:I and when I reclaim my memories I go I TOLD YOU SO then promptly get smacked back down into place XD Oh, bioware can create some truely good lore.
When tamlen touches the eluvian in da:o he says that he can see a great city underground covered in blackness. Could be related maybe, could just be anothe ruin though.
When tamlen touches the eluvian in da:o he says that he can see a great city underground covered in blackness. Could be related maybe, could just be anothe ruin though.
It could be.
Dalish religion holds that the Creators were trapped in the Fade in the 'Eternal City', which kinda points to a connection. Arlathan was sunk, apparently by the elves or even Fen'harel, not by the Vints. (They would've wanted to loot the place, anyhow.) And if Tamlen can tell it's a great city, but it's covered in blackness, which he mentions along with it being underground...I dunno, but that sounds less like him making sure we know it's dark underground, and more like the city is black the way Corpyheus was anguishing over the Golden City being black and corrupt.
On the other hand, the Black City doesn't look particularly elfy to me. Certainly doesn't sound like what Solas described Elvenhan cities being like. So I think if it is connected to Arlathan, it's probably more of a palace/temple deal, or the Fade has taken creative liberties representing it.
I've founf something very interesting here.
Not sure if it's accurate, but the wiki's Ages section says Arlathan was destroyed in 220 TE with a horrifying blood ritual and the first Blight began in 800 TE. The ritual they performed to physically enter the Fade used the blood of hundreds of slaves and 2/3 of the lyrium in the entire empire. After the visions the Warden had and the quest line into the Deep Roads, I figured the city Tamlen saw was Bownammar. The elves could also use the eluvians for transportation, as well as communication. The Tevinter magisters however, could only figure out how to use them for communication. Corypheus said the city was black when they got there. It also seems to indicate the Maker was not there.
"The city! It was supposed to be golden! It was supposed to be ours!"
"The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was... black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?"
Also the Forbidden Ones (Xebenkeck the Undying, Imshael, Gaxkang the Unbound and the Formless One) were the ones that taught the magisters blood magic.
"The blood feeds, the blood nourishes. In blood, the call is heard. In blood, the deal is made. My master bathed in a river of blood, Then the Great Xebenkeck came!" ―Dabbon Hait
"The first of the magus cast themselves deep in the Fade in search of answers and power, always power. They found the forbidden ones- Xebenkeck, Imshael, Gaxkang the Unbound, and The Formless One. Many conversations were had and much of the fabric of the world revealed. And thus the magic of blood was born." ―Unknown Mage
Flemeth being the Maker or Fen'Harel wouldn't surprise me, I've had several theories involving those ideas. Also that she could be the spirit of Toth via OGB methods. Anon, she is definitely not just a powerful witch. At least a couple characters state that she is no mage or abomination, she's not even human. She's at least 600 years old for starters.
And the eluvians aren't tainted because they they are connected to the Fade, they never really say why they are tainted but presumably simply because darkspawn used them and they taint everything they touch. They may have been using them since the Tevinter magisters that first turned into darkspawn, who would have known about them. In any case, the Black City seems sealed off from the rest of the Fade somehow and there appears to be no taint anywhere in the rest of the Fade.
I've theorized that the Old Gods were not gods but spirits, among the Maker's first children, becoming the first demons. That they were archdemons long before being tainted. That they tried to conquer the Golden City but corrupted it turning it black and then were cast out to their underground prisons, still untainted. They taught the magisters rituals to unbind them but first they had to find them. The OG/ADs used the magisters lust for power in an attempt to free themselves that failed miserably.
First with the eluvians, when the magisters couldn't figure out how to use them for transportation, then with invading the Black City, which they sent the magisters to either in a search for answers or as punishment. When they arrived, their own darkness combined with the darkness in the Black City, creating the taint and turning them into darkspawn. They returned with the song to guide them and eventually (possibly not even until recently) figured out how to use the eluvians. Once the darkspawn find the OG/ADs, they awaken them, but taint them.
They discover that this taint traps them in the mortal realm and use the Wardens to kill their earthly bodies so they can return to the Fade. The Wardens say they are destroyed, possibly even believing it themselves. Maybe the OG/ADs even somehow take the now vacant Black City. OGBs possibly being a way to keep at least 1 trapped here. --Vampire Damian
I think also for tamlen to see this city, there would need to be another eluvian on the other side he was looking through if that makes sense.It could be.
Dalish religion holds that the Creators were trapped in the Fade in the 'Eternal City', which kinda points to a connection. Arlathan was sunk, apparently by the elves or even Fen'harel, not by the Vints. (They would've wanted to loot the place, anyhow.) And if Tamlen can tell it's a great city, but it's covered in blackness, which he mentions along with it being underground...I dunno, but that sounds less like him making sure we know it's dark underground, and more like the city is black the way Corpyheus was anguishing over the Golden City being black and corrupt.
On the other hand, the Black City doesn't look particularly elfy to me. Certainly doesn't sound like what Solas described Elvenhan cities being like. So I think if it is connected to Arlathan, it's probably more of a palace/temple deal, or the Fade has taken creative liberties representing it.
I think also for tamlen to see this city, there would need to be another eluvian on the other side he was looking through if that makes sense.
It makes sense. 
How exactly do the Eluvians work? Was the idea of transportation to hop into an Eluvian, pop out in the Crossroads, then take your pick? Or can they also connect directly to other Eluvians, Mass Relay style?
And the ancient elves (or the elven gods) themselves moved it to the Fade, because it was the place where the Blight started, so became black. They used the orb to move it, as Corypheus moved the ruins of the Temple to the sky in the final part of DAI.
Possibly a certain faction of gods or elven people created the red lyrium and the blight to fight the others.
Discuss...
I agree with the likelihood of the first part of that, but not the second. I just think of Red Lyrium as something which has happened as a biproduct of other things. Not intentionally.
I personally reckon that Fen'Harel *did* lock the Elven Gods away. And He did this by moving Arlathan to the Abyss. Maybe in haste. Maybe not realising what side-effects it would have.
The problem is that (as we are told in the Codex for Andruil) time spent in that part of the Fade can corrupt. The Codex entry speaks of Andruil being changed by hunting that part of the Fade. Gradually becoming something monstrous, which the other Elves were afraid of.
I believe that in moving Arlathan Fen'Harel caused the City and Gods to become tainted. Corrupted and transformed. They became the Tevinter Old Gods calling out to the Magisters, whispering out false promises, trting to get them to enter the City and thereby freeing them.
Doing so corrupted the magisters themselves, transforming them into the first Darkspawn.
I believe that each Archdemon, of each Blight, was once an Elven God, which has found a way out of The Fade and into the real world. It uses the the Taint in the Darkspawn blood to mass an army, and a Blight begins.
That's not to say that eah Elven God is forever corrupted. The Old God Baby for example is, as far as we know, pure. Untainted. So it may be possible to undo the damage.
Also Fen'Harel is the Maker, Flemythal was Andraste, Old Gods are actually the seven elven Gods (minus the wisp of Flemeth and slumbering Fen'Harel) who want their power back and were hidden behind eluvians by the Dread Wolf
Also Fen'Harel is the Maker, Flemythal was Andraste, Old Gods are actually the seven elven Gods (minus the wisp of Flemeth and slumbering Fen'Harel) who want their power back and were hidden behind eluvians by the Dread Wolf
And both Chantry and Tevinter will feel betrayed. WHAT A TWIST! I love it.
Mythal as Andraste is harder to reconcile.
The Maker is one of those "do nothing" kind of gods, unknowable and unprovable, but not disprovable either.
He will never do anything that will be directly attributable to him, so for the purposes of lore discussions about the true nature of reality and history in Thedas he may as well be discounted entirely.
True but people talk about everything like The Maker isn't there at all (so it wasn't him to created everything, Golden City and all) or that The Maker is a character we've already seen (people mentioning Fen'Harel being the Maker). There is more substance in the idea that he exists in the DA world and is responsible for many things (creation of all beings, creation of the world outside Thedas we've never seen where humans and Qunari came from etc).
But to suggest Fen'Harel is the Maker is rediculous, because the Maker while being a 'do nothing god' as you suggest would certainly have the power to stop Corypheus and would know the truth about everything.
Every time I read a theory thread, I see people throwing more and more weird ideas at it all, when sticking to what we have been told is sometimes far simpler.
Mythal as Andraste is harder to reconcile.
Not at all
Go to tumblr and read some interesting theories and ramblings. There is plenty of hints and even proofs in all three games
One of the most obvious ones is the fact that Mythal's image (just like in her Temple) can be found during the final battle on the ruins of the Temple of Sacred Ashes
Not at all
Go to tumblr and read some interesting theories and ramblings. There is plenty of hints and even proofs in all three games
One of the most obvious ones is the fact that Mythal's image (just like in her Temple) can be found during the final battle on the ruins of the Temple of Sacred Ashes
I mean that Andraste basically defined the belief of a being called 'The Maker'. A one single and true God.
All the principles and teachings of The Chantry stem from her teachings.
I cannot see Flemeth having done that. Having created an entire religion in that fashion.
I mean that Andraste basically defined the belief of a being called 'The Maker'. A one single and true God.
All the principles and teachings of The Chantry stem from her teachings.
I cannot see Flemeth having done that. Having created an entire religion in that fashion.
I kind of doubt that they literally were writing down every word she sang. You know, singing, hard to understand sometimes. Plus she didn't create the religion. The belief in the Maker existed long before Andraste was born
I kind of doubt that they literally were writing down every word she sang. You know, singing, hard to understand sometimes. Plus she didn't create the religion. The belief in the Maker existed long before Andraste was born
Actually, yes. I suppose so. She was just became a figurehead, and people followed.
Hmmm.
I mean that Andraste basically defined the belief of a being called 'The Maker'. A one single and true God.
All the principles and teachings of The Chantry stem from her teachings.
I cannot see Flemeth having done that. Having created an entire religion in that fashion.
Listen to Eleni Zinovia.
Notice she says they about the maker.
I mean that Andraste basically defined the belief of a being called 'The Maker'. A one single and true God.
All the principles and teachings of The Chantry stem from her teachings.
I cannot see Flemeth having done that. Having created an entire religion in that fashion.
not really. She inspired it not developed the religion. She had no part of the structuring of the religion because she was dead.
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