215 réponses à ce sujet

[DaemionMoadrin]

That the same piece of armor can be used by both a dwarf and a qunari is dumb (and it happened in DA:O).

 

Heh. And you can't do the same in DA:I? Or any other RPG?

Iron Bull constantly got the armor Cassandra didn't use anymore.

[Dubya75]

Anyone claiming that DAI is NOT dumbed down (I hate having to use that term) is delusional. Going over and having a look at Tactics in DAI compared to that of DAO and even DA2 is enough evidence of that.

I don't think anyone can argue against it.

 

IMO, Bioware also made a HUGE mistake to use Frostbite 3, probably seduced by the pretty rendering capabilities, lighting and absolutely huge areas that are possible, all the while IGNORING the fact that they are going to have real trouble with game mechanics.

But who needs a proper game when you can have a pretty game, right?

 

It is my absolute conviction that DAI would have been 10 times better if Bioware kept using their own game engine. Perhaps it would not have looked as good, we would not have had the massive open zones etc etc......BUT we would have had a game with actual improved elements like AI, tactics, combat and all the best parts of the previous games, effortlessly re-applied and built upon to create the best game in the series.

 

But of course, that didn't happen. Instead, the Bioware team bit off much more than they can chew and after almost 4 years in development, all we really have is a mainstream action game pretending to be an RPG.

[Elhanan]

The AI was better previously; agreed. And while it was explained that this was removed to stop the AI from winning the game, and not the Player, the end result is added frustration and increased reloads. But I do not see the game as 'Dumbed Down' (note: personally hate that phrase).

DAO and DA2 had buttons to push for Spells & Talents; so does DAI, and the combat speed is now between the two, which pleases me. While I miss the Sustains personally, the new system actually requires more thought; maybe added planning as to the party synergy. And while I prefer manually placed Attributes, weapon specializations, weapon changing during battles, and like mechanics, there were also increases seen in customization of both the character and equipment.

Am hoping DA4 will allow for full Player controlled designs, and a return to the previous AI, but the system in place is still much better than other games where I choose and prefer to run solo.

[Xhaiden]

True. All good things come to an end. It's just that EA hastens that process often.

How many good developers ceased to exist because of EA? The list is long and includes pioneers like Westwood and Bullfrog.

 

The situation we have now is this: There are some gigantic publishers dominating the market: EA, UbiSoft and so on. They aren't going to risk their profits by giving any new innovative game a chance because it might fail, they rather publish sequels of establishes franchises. And they fight hard for every share of the market.

 

That's why we are getting bland, generic crap these days. As long as we continue to feed this trend, it is not going to change. DA:I is not generic crap but we can see the trend. If we don't protest now, then the next DA sequel will only be worse.

 

Once BioWare's good reputation is gone completely, once they are no longer known to release excellent games... then EA will step in and "reorganize". I doubt BioWare will have any more luck than all the other developers before them.

 

EA was pretty terrible for this through out the 90s and early 2000 ( Draining and shuttering studios that is ). The list isn't as long as you'd think, but it includes some painfully noteworthy names, yes. But even EA admitted this was a shitty period in the company's history and decided to take a more hands off approach to its developer studios. Though it still has issues with employee working conditions. They are, however, quite guilty of avoiding any risks or new / unproven IPs in favour of maintain proven franchises ad naseum.

 

Ubisoft on the other hand, despite the shatstorm that was Unity and the cashcow of AC, does take on more innovative and niche games like Child of Light and Valiant Hearts.

 

Bioware should be fine for the forseeable future. Despite the vocal minority froth on these boards DA:I has been a critical and commercial success. I won't worry too much about Bioware unless I suddenly see all their writers quitting en mass or something and fleeing to other studios. As that would indicate some top down shifts in management that the core teams aren't happy with. That's usually a good warning sign that the end is neigh for a studio under a publisher.

[Rawgrim]

No, you characters' options were restricted by class and specialization (which is ok, by the way). DA:O just had a few more skills in the skill-tree, but since you would only use the best ones, the practical outcome was only that you simply wasted more time by reading/using the useless ones.

 

Also, in DA:O you could "see" the enemies in your radar behind the door, send Morrigan to the door, create a blizzard inside their room... and they would take a ridiculous amount of time to even open the door to try to fight you. Some of them would even die from the blizzard inside the room before doing anything. Now THAT was dumb.

 

That the same piece of armor can be used by both a dwarf and a qunari is dumb (and it happened in DA:O). King Cailan's strategy to face the blight was dumb. Alistair was dumb. Having a romantic dialog in the middle of a quest, surrounded by the other companions, was dumb. On the contrary, a fast-paced combat system built to fit the both the multi-player and the single-player experience is just a fast-paced combat system built to fit both experiences.

 

*Don't get me wrong, I liked DA:O. I'm just tired of people idealizing games from the past just because things change.

 

Yes the game has classes, most rpgs do. But in DA:O you had a lot more freedom within that class, to create your very own character. In DA:I you are limited to "ninja with two daggers" or "guy with bow". That's it. The game doesn't even have non-combat skills.

 

You can see people behind doors in DA:I as well. And sometimes even enemies that are a floor above you. Not sure what you point is?

 

The fact that NPCs in the game behave like dumbasses, has nothing to do with the gameplay being dumbed down. That is a story element. It would be an issue, however, if the game takes control over your character an makes him behave like ******. Which actually happens in DA:I at some points. Having conversations during a quest is not dumb. If you have read a fantasy book, or any book, for that matter, you will notice that people actually talk to eachother when they are out "questing".

 

Who said anything about idealizing? People just want to have control over their own character, to have meaningful choices, and to do meaningful things in the game. Having to think about desicions is good too. This is not nessecary in DA:I because you can't ever get punished for a poor choice. Impossible to screw up.

[umadcommander]

dumbed down from DA2?

 

[Rawgrim]

Oh, and by the way, they didn't fail. 

 

- According to the current numbers in VGchartz, DA:I sold, in less then 2 months, pretty much the same amount that DA2 in 3 years. It's also about 1/4 of the DA:O numbers already (considering total DA:O sales since 2009).

- It's leading the GOTY voting for 2014 in pretty much every major gaming site.

- There are already thousands of people playing MP worldwide, and this number will only grow as more players finish the SP campaign. So the game has another (larger) monetization option.

 

Disregarding what the friends of OP say, it seems pretty obvious that DA:I will make more money than any of the previous DA games. And all of that coming from a game (DA2) that had been considered a failure by pretty much everyone.

 

- DA:I is also selling on two more consoles than DA2 did. New gen out now. It also came out right before xmas, and with very little competition.

- Of course it is leading. EA pays money for reviews and rewards.

- Yes. Microtransactions = quality of the game.

 

Making more money doesn't equal a good product. Or are you saying Justin Bieber is a top of the line musician?

[Reymoose]

Anyone claiming that DAI is NOT dumbed down (I hate having to use that term) is delusional. Going over and having a look at Tactics in DAI compared to that of DAO and even DA2 is enough evidence of that.

I don't think anyone can argue against it.

 

IMO, Bioware also made a HUGE mistake to use Frostbite 3, probably seduced by the pretty rendering capabilities, lighting and absolutely huge areas that are possible, all the while IGNORING the fact that they are going to have real trouble with game mechanics.

But who needs a proper game when you can have a pretty game, right?

 

It is my absolute conviction that DAI would have been 10 times better if Bioware kept using their own game engine. Perhaps it would not have looked as good, we would not have had the massive open zones etc etc......BUT we would have had a game with actual improved elements like AI, tactics, combat and all the best parts of the previous games, effortlessly re-applied and built upon to create the best game in the series.

 

But of course, that didn't happen. Instead, the Bioware team bit off much more than they can chew and after almost 4 years in development, all we really have is a mainstream action game pretending to be an RPG.

 

You shouldn't hate the term 'dumbed down', I mean it is what it is. A better term can be 'simplified' but that implies it's improved and removing features that had no problems being in the game isn't simplification.

 

You're absolutely right about the engine. In my opinion, Frostbite 3 is a terrible engine that Bioware was forced to use simply because EA forced it on them, it has no redeemable or advanced features that existing engines don't have the capability to do, and even then, an engine specifically for the DA series would have served it better.

 

Bioware should be fine for the forseeable future. Despite the vocal minority froth on these boards DA:I has been a critical and commercial success. I won't worry too much about Bioware unless I suddenly see all their writers quitting en mass or something and fleeing to other studios. As that would indicate some top down shifts in management that the core teams aren't happy with. That's usually a good warning sign that the end is neigh for a studio under a publisher.

 

Don't dismiss valid criticism as 'froth', that only implies that you don't want to have a discussion or change your mind about issues. You absolutely should be worried about the content that marketing or executives think that made the game so popular, because people in the financial portion of the gaming industry absolutely have no idea why games are popular.

 

So when they hear 'commercial and critical success' and look at cheap, modular, filler content that can be produced on an annual basis, then that's what they will sell you. The revolving door around Bioware is huge, there haven't been writer/developer mass resignations/layoffs, but over the years, the company has bled it's core team, promoting people who are more in line with what EA wants to get out of Bioware.

[Rawgrim]

 

I like the combat speed better too Dumbed-down may not be the best term. Below is some ways Inquisition is more simple for me in combat and character build (boring IMO compared to Origins). I use m/kb, and action cam.

 

• No mouse-click to move, attack, interact
• Character portraits, can’t select multiple characters
• Went from 40 quickbar slots to 8
• No detailed tooltips
• Dual wield?
• Mage melee attack?
• Overall limited ability trees
• Less spells (bye bye creation, arcane, entropy)
• Less variation in spells (mostly just spamable ones left)
• Willpower basically dosen’t affect mana? Great, even more exciting to play a mage…
• No more can we build our hero with stat points at each level up
• NO MORE DEEP CUSTOM TACTICS

 

 

Non combat skills are gone too.

[Elhanan]

I like the combat speed better too Dumbed-down may not be the best term. Below is some ways Inquisition is more simple for me in combat and character build (boring IMO compared to Origins). I use m/kb, and action cam.

• No mouse-click to move, attack, interact
• Character portraits, can’t select multiple characters
• Went from 40 quickbar slots to 8
• No detailed tooltips
• Dual wield?
• Mage melee attack?
• Overall limited ability trees
• Less spells (bye bye creation, arcane, entropy)
• Less variation in spells (mostly just spamable ones left)
• Willpower basically dosen’t affect mana? Great, even more exciting to play a mage…
• No more can we build our hero with stat points at each level up
• NO MORE DEEP CUSTOM TACTICS

* DW is Rogue and dagger only, if this is what was meant. Also a fan of the Rogue hybrid, which is handicapped currently.

* Did not use many Entropy spells in previous games, but thought these were included in Necromancy. Arcane Bolt seems to have become Electric Barrage (ie; Magic Missiles all), and Arcane passives may still be included as passives; uncertain. And I prefer the new healing system, though a simple healing spell should be included, IMO.

* Melee Mage - with staff blade attached, this is how I explain current close combat, even if it is restricted to Elemental discharge.

I agree with many of the other observations, but disagree about simplicity. Point & Click is far easier than current set-up; might be an engine problem, and I miss having both as in NWN.

[Vader20]

What's the idea behind fast paced combat ?

[Vulkan Lives]

Meanwhile, I have three friends who have never played a Dragon Age game before (despite hearing me babble about it ever since DAO came out) who are now playing Inquisition. They all like it so far.

 

This is anecdata, of course, but my social circle is at least as significant as the OP's (by which I mean tiny and statistically meaningless.)

But would they like it as much if they had played DA:O or DA2?

[Dakota Strider]

When talking about sales for DAI, we will have to wait for the numbers that show how many of the initial sales were pre-ordered, before people actually learned what was in the game.  All we had was what Bioware execs, and paid for influenced game critics told us.  Since DA2 was mentioned, it also surpassed the sales of DAO... in week 1.  Turned out that about 75% of DA2's week 1 sales were from pre-orders.  But, from week 2 onward, DAO outsold DA2.  

 

So, DA2 has great opening sales...based on the fact fans thought they were getting DAO part 2. 

 

DAI has great opening sales... after everyone that stands to make money from it, sells us that it is going to be DAO part 2. 

[Rizilliant]

I absolutely agree with the OP.. The dubing down craze most game developers are taking now adays is frusterating.. Its ruining all the greatest games in their respective genres.. Diablo, The Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, World of Warcraft, etc.. These are games created by what used to be, Juggernauts in the industry.. Rather than continueing to crate the games they were masters of, and continueing to make games for their niche of the market, these devs have adopted a ideaology that making a game that is less "niche", that may or may not appeal to a wider audience, is better for profits sake alone! Sure, you may sell a few more copies, but those "casual" players will play for maybe a month, and move onto the next flavor of the week!..

 

What made those games great that i previsouly listed? The dedicated fanbase, who loved, with passion, the epic games created..If you alienate these fans, to appeal to the masses, you are going to eventually become another assassins creed that feels like a watered down joke, that is being mass produced twice yearly.. worth maybe a single playthrough to anyone.. But NO ONE will continue to enjoy it for a decade, like DA:O, Morrowind, ME1, vanilla WoW, or even The Burning Crusade! Assassins Creed games were epic, until they became a yearly release.. Its very apparant, the developers care more for hurrying to release them, as opposed to passionately create a true gaming experience! They are hollow shells of what they once were.. 

 

Just as bad, is the obvious disreguard for a games stability/playability upon release! Day 1 patches are a joke, and should be voiced by all.. Publishers are putting unrealistic expectations, limitations, quota,  and deadlines on these developers, and the consumers are left with games that require weeks, and months of fixing to work properly.. Imo, this is borderline criminal. Because the gaming industry doesnt have much enforcement of quality, or the lines are blurred in it..

 

Ive said in the past, i would never purchase another EA title, and thus far, ive lived up to it.. Bioware was the 1 exception to that rule.. However the recent activity, pr, and ethics have brought me to a grim, final conclusion.. They are indeed gone.. Crossed over to the shareholders care, than passionate about their "product". This, after Da2, was the final straw. How many of you, will still buy from EA, or have said youd never again?

[Elhanan]

* I wanted to try a dual wielding Qun warrior, that would have been cool   Laidlaw said no at the moment, but maybe in time
* Simple healing spell YES
* Melee mages, guess I just don't like restrictions
 
Simplicity of custom companion tactics is what I cry the most about
 
Point and click may be more simple if you look at it differently yes, but I just see the current controls as lacking since we have fewer ways of issuing commands. WASD movement of our hero in action cam was also there in Origins, but on top of that we could also click to move, loot, attack, interact. Now we only have WASD.

RE: Controls - Believe one can hold the Mouse button and drive with WASD; offers far more control than some other WASD games.

As for Behaviour, I have had luck with reducing Mana & Stamina consumption restrictions to 20-30%, Potion consumption to 20%, and setting characters to Follow themselves, or Follow the Warrior of choice for ranged characters. And ordering Commands in Tac-Cam works a lot longer than in action mode.

[katokires]

No, you characters' options were restricted by class and specialization (which is ok, by the way). DA:O just had a few more skills in the skill-tree, but since you would only use the best ones, the practical outcome was only that you simply wasted more time by reading/using the useless ones.

 

Also, in DA:O you could "see" the enemies in your radar behind the door, send Morrigan to the door, create a blizzard inside their room... and they would take a ridiculous amount of time to even open the door to try to fight you. Some of them would even die from the blizzard inside the room before doing anything. Now THAT was dumb.

 

That the same piece of armor can be used by both a dwarf and a qunari is dumb (and it happened in DA:O). King Cailan's strategy to face the blight was dumb. Alistair was dumb. Having a romantic dialog in the middle of a quest, surrounded by the other companions, was dumb. On the contrary, a fast-paced combat system built to fit the both the multi-player and the single-player experience is just a fast-paced combat system built to fit both experiences.

 

*Don't get me wrong, I liked DA:O. I'm just tired of people idealizing games from the past just because things change.

Your take on RPG is wrong.

And perhaps you should praise Inquisition if you already don't. You are the kind of person the game is for.

"...but since you would only use the best ones..." - Any RPG player with this line of thought, EXCEPT for MMOs, is better playing action games, like Inquisition

While you are in no way forbid of creating a practical character, to argue on the assumption that players play optimal or even functional characters is insane

It has the most disgusting base, that the player actually prefers to stick to what works and not to their imagination, dreams, wishes, stories and so on

Playing an RPG is all about creating an original character

That's why Bioware changed and is useless for me now, they changed the focus to the actual gameplay

If I wanted to use "the best skills" or "kill enemies that are smart enough to not just die behind a door" I would buy an action game

RPGs used to offer a thing no other genre did, the building of the character, the possibility to represent an idealized entity into a digital world, now it seems to be about smashing orcs and elves heads with a hammer and looking cool doing so

Action fans gain nothing since there are much better action options, RPG fans lose almost everything, who gains something with this butchery? With this focus on simplicity and funcionality? EA, Bioware, dumb players (the vast majority)
Spending literally HOURS, sometimes DAYS, creating character builds, for both tabletop and digital RPGs, oh, what a great joy, never again it with Bioware RPGs

How someone enjoyed the old Bioware games if not for character creation/customization is beyond me since combat sucked, and that's what made them marvelous: They were character creators and combat simulators with very boring mechanics

That's why I idolize them, because they were what I needed, not because I think they were more than they were

And yeah, that is what I expected Inquisition (and any other RPG for that matter) to be, character creators and combat simmulators with boring (actionless) mechanics
Does it sell? Not. Am I rational for wanting it? Not. Do I care? Not. I whine because I can, not because it is right or makes sense, it hurts, I cry, as simples as that. All my "points" are about it. And no, I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't intend looking like I know what I'm doing, I mean, rationally, also I think it is stupid anyway, I mean, to be rational and say things that make sense. And yeah you read it right.

[Vox Draco]

Pft ... DAI made me use Origins again after years, and I bought the first game over EA's platform ... hey, it was Dead Space 3?! For ten Euros, including the DLC, but that one was a rip-off if I ever seen one...

 

Anway, Dead Space 3 was a good game. After all the rather negative-medicore reviws and feedbacks I was surprised how much I liked the game. Some reviews made it look like it was nothing more than a rail-shooter pr cover-shooter, but its far from true. And the lack of "fear" has a rather obvious reason if you are a Deadspace-veteran...you already know the drill ... if anything Dead Space 3 did "wrong", its not that they dumbed it down (crafting your own weapons is a lot more interesting than before I'd say, and it makes sense with Isaac being engineer), but that it cannot erally surprise anyone anymore with the Necromporph ... I call that the Alien-effect...was anyone scared with the Xenomorphs after watching the first two movies? I wasn't, because they were nothing special anymore...

 

And I also liked DA3...I think they did well on getting rid of the attribute-allocating for the most part. Useless semi-feature anyway. And the whole "level up and assign another useles point in smite - regret 20 levels later!) is gone as well. I should play it again thinking about that ...^^

 

Oh, DAI ...I forgot...you don't like it, okay, we feel with you. It's sadly still a good game, and your opinion is only one of many. That's a harsh truth everyone on the internet has to accept someday, you opinion is just a voice in the crowd and nothing special ... sorry I shattered your world, DAI-Complainers ^^

[katokires]

...and your opinion is only one of many...

Then my opinion is going to be a loyal servant standing by my side as I defeat my enemies, consume their souls, wreak havoc in the realms and challenge the gods. I will escape, build an army and bring doom to them all. One of Many

[Farangbaa]

Anyone claiming that DAI is NOT dumbed down (I hate having to use that term) is delusional. Going over and having a look at Tactics in DAI compared to that of DAO and even DA2 is enough evidence of that.
I don't think anyone can argue against it.
 
IMO, Bioware also made a HUGE mistake to use Frostbite 3, probably seduced by the pretty rendering capabilities, lighting and absolutely huge areas that are possible, all the while IGNORING the fact that they are going to have real trouble with game mechanics.
But who needs a proper game when you can have a pretty game, right?
 
It is my absolute conviction that DAI would have been 10 times better if Bioware kept using their own game engine. Perhaps it would not have looked as good, we would not have had the massive open zones etc etc......BUT we would have had a game with actual improved elements like AI, tactics, combat and all the best parts of the previous games, effortlessly re-applied and built upon to create the best game in the series.
 
But of course, that didn't happen. Instead, the Bioware team bit off much more than they can chew and after almost 4 years in development, all we really have is a mainstream action game pretending to be an RPG.

Yes because the making the game play the companions for you, like you could in DA:O, is smarting it up.
And having to intervene sometimes in DA:I, is dumbing it down.

That makes absolutely no sense.

[PrinceofTime]

Bioware wanted to tap into the Skyrim audience with the open world comparison marketing they pushed. Obviously they failed since the vast majority of gamers were playing games from Call of Duty to GTA5 this holiday. The sales when released will be interesting.

[katokires]

Me too. I have friends who never played the series and bought DA:I. I don't have any friends who played the previous games and didn't play this one.

 

Also... "dumbed-down"? What do you think DA:O was, a master in quantum physics? I played the game and neither the story or the game mechanics were much harder than DA:I. You people need to stop your nostalgia/resistance to change. It's really messing with your perception of reality.

Perhaps when you start making sense? What the ****? "Dumbed down" means "easier"? Hell I should really check the dictionary... oh wait... no, it doesn't

Dumbed down = simplified

Things were simplified in DA2 and now even more in DAI

Tactics, stats, the whole combat system, the whole character development, everything has been simplified so that "not so bright" people can play the game. Now, in Inquisition, any person that doesn't even understand the stat system can play and finish the game because they cannot screw it up, unless they intend to, they should also need to be unlucky to somehow have equipment they are not supposed to, to do that they would need to craft using special material to wear equipment from other classes and somehow randomly make the wrong choices for all materials. Even if someone manages to do so by chance I still doubt it would affect the gameplay to the point it really cause any damage to a character combat ability.

It is all about player skill now. All about all I hate.

Anyway, the point is that being dumbed down is fact and it is not related to the difficulty.

[katokires]

Yes because the making the game play the companions for you, like you could in DA:O, is smarting it up.
And having to intervene sometimes in DA:I, is dumbing it down.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Dumbing and Smarting are of course about mind, intelligence right?

So it is about understanding the combat system and setting tactics properly

Not about reacting in real time, it takes no "smarts" at all, it only takes reflex or something like that

Doing =/= Thinking

Thinking = Good

Doing = Bad

If I liked doing I would play action games. I like thinking, only, my "doing" goes as far as clicking with the mouse, and it is like extremely abusive "doing", RPGs should be played with telekinetic mind powers, Bioware went the opposite direction and made it more "doing" and less "thinking"

But you don't have to agree with me, I have ultimate despise for real world and actions and complete idolization for fantasy and thinking