105 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkly Tranquil]

Nah - people have too much nostalgia - go reinstall DA:O on your PC (it should still be free on Origin). It's really...not that great beside the tactical encounters.

Really? I had the opposite experience; every minute spent in Inquisition made me long for Origins again (and I just played it just before DAI launched). DAI's simplistic combat, poorly implemented controls, horrible UI, and largely pointless open word only served to ram home to me the point that a smaller game with a narrower story focus is much better than a massive game filled with trivia that doesn't really matter, as all that filler simply distracts from the main plot of the game. Flash graphics and huge zones mean nothing if they don't enhance the story and gameplay, and overall the things we lost on the way to Inquisition seem far greater than the things we gained.

[kingjezza]

Given that Mike Laidlaw is the lead designer for the Dragon Age series, I'd say no.

 

This.

 

It's been blantently obvious since DA2 was announced that Laidlaw doesn't even like Origins much, he's wanted to move away from it as much as possible from day 1, the problem is, his ideas about what make a better Dragon Age game are only better in his own head, he's failed the series miserably as far as I'm concerned.

 

I've said for ages they should have given him a Jade Empire sequel or something to work on, where he could have put his own ideas to better use, rather than butcher an already succesful franchise.

[katokires]

Fixed. If your substantive point is that complexity is a matter of personal taste, you shouldn't embed your own preferences into your description of the issue.

Back when I was 18 or so, I liked complexity for its own sake too. I'm not really sure why. Possibly as a some sort of a geek status marker, possibly because I wasn't really a very analytic thinker then. A few decades later, and the complexity of a lot of game systems now strikes be as being, essentially, noise.  For instance, when you master the D&D magic system you learn that a lot of the spells are outright worthless, half the rest are only rarely useful, and the useful stuff that's left over includes a lot of duplicate functionality, so the number of spells is a lot more than the number of actual abilities those spells give you.

When I was 18, 12 years ago I didn't even bother with complexity. And I can perfectly rationally explain why I like complexity IN STATS/ATTRIBUTES/whateveryouwanttocallit specifically. I hate complexity in strategy combat, like in Divinity, I HATE IT. Not everything I use as an argument is something I like, because I can perfectly separate what I like and what is good/well done.

 

So first your post was directed towards somethings I'm not. I' not young, I HATE difficulty, challenge and complexity in gameplay. HATE. I just don't play games with it. I didn't even play Disgaea just because it had different types of ground (squares your character stand into) and it was a factor in gameplay. That is how uch I hate complexity.

 

Then comes the problem of complexity for the sake of complexity that you are also so wrong it makes puppies die. I love complexity in status because of two things:

1. I am all about exotic and the more variation on stats the more I go away from traditiona useful builds. The best RPG I played, stats wise was an MMO, Trickster Online, it had 12 stats divided into 4 groups. I could do all kinds of builds.

2. It is not exotic for the sake of exoticness too. My tastes in real life are exotic and NEVER I found a simple game in which I could represent myself and all variations of myself (my characters). With stats, as many as possible, I can make "myselves" (lol), sometimes, perfectly, specially with mods. In Trickster I could control ASPD, damage, hit chance, critical chance all in separate stats, not just Dexterity like many RPG do. On top of that I could add all the equipment thing. But I'm also content with D&D 6 stats thing, not that bad and usually helps me since out of battle they represent a lot and help me even more to represent myself. In Inquisition it is 100% impossible to even start to represent myself. In fact I should give some random name to my character and name the armors and weapon I craft with my name since they are the only things you can customize (and it is kind of what I do like using my last name, its meaning and variations to name armors, addons and so on). It is ridiculous, I am my armor, the character itself is nothing but a generic ****. Also as I stated before your stats mean nothing regarding who you are, this **** is not for me (or anyone who like RPG). Sometimes I manage to represent myself with only 4 stats, but it is VERY rare. Usually 6 or more is gold. 4 sometimes is barely enough, most times insifficient. 3 or less is just never enough no matter what, even coupled with high equipment customization.

 

So yeah, I hate tactical combat and complexity in general but I accept it because it usually comes with my real need, a good stat system. I need it because no simples system gave me what I needed up until exactly now. Simples games work for people who want to take joy in playing thegame, I mean the actual playing, combat, puzzles, exploration, etc
People who's joy is only in making the character and creating thousands of builds (nwn2db.com for instance) will get nothing from a game like DAI. Nor did they get from DA2 that even having 6 stats had them simplified to optimize class hit/damage as Inquisition thus reducing the possibilities for people like me.

That's it. NOTHING related to what you thought I was talking about because it is nothing of complexity for the sake of complexity since I hate complexity except for the stats for reasons I specified above.

 

Edit: Also, functionality. This word is poison, hell, doom. I despise functionality more than anything in my life. Even in real life I hate how people let go of subjective and creative choices in favor functional, even when it means life or death. If my life was an RPG my enemy would be called Functionality. Things don't have to function, they have to represent you, no matter how useless they are (like most y builds are).

[fchopin]

 
To Bioware's credit, meeting Dorian actually makes me want to play as someone from North Thedas, preferably someone from Tevinter. Ideally you would be playing the leader of some kind of underground group whose motives and methods you decide. Perhaps you're Tevinters answer to Cerberus, seeking to improve the power and influence of the Imperium across the world, or perhaps your goal is to topple the current power structure. Either way it could make for an interesting game.

I would not mind playing someone from Tevinter or north Thedas as I also found Dorian interesting.

[The Mad King]

I really have no idea what's DA:O's appeal..there's no jump, the game is incredibly short, and other than interactions with your companions, there's not much to it. People who like the combat are even more weird, in Inquisition you can freely move and jump while in Origins you have to run away really quickly from coming attacks which you barely dodge anyhow. 

[Darkly Tranquil]

I really have no idea what's DA:O's appeal..there's no jump, the game is incredibly short, and other than interactions with your companions, there's not much to it. People who like the combat are even more weird, in Inquisition you can freely move and jump while in Origins you have to run away really quickly from coming attacks which you barely dodge anyhow.

Because jumping and dodging are not required in Origins. Are you unfamiliar with how combat in traditional CRPGs workshop? Have you never played Dungeons and Dragons with pen and paper? Hitting and dodging in combat is determined by the attack and dodge values of the characters engaged in combat + a dice roll. If the attackers roll + attack beats the defenders defence, he hits; if it doesn't the defender dodges or parries it (depending on the specific mechanics being used). All the attacks are computed within the game, without the users reflexes determining anything, so there is no need for players to be jumping or dodging because it does nothing to alter the chances of hitting (unless you turn your character's back to the enemy).

This is why people refer to Origins (and other older RPGs) as "tactical" RPGs; because the skill of the player is in building the skills, stats, and gear of their party, and then using those skills in combat by choosing when to employ them and how you place your characters (ie. using tactics). The combat therefore plays more like a board game, with the player moving the pieces around and fighting the battles using dice (simulated within the game engine) to determine the outcome of events. The most extreme form of this style of gameplay is found in games like Divinity: Original Sin, which uses full turn based combat, rather than the hybrid stop-start style of Baldur's Gate or Origins.

Conversely, newer "action RPGs" have far a far more videogame oriented way of resolving combat, with a far greater focus on the player's reflexes and skills in typically videogame combat mechanics. In these settings, things like jumping, blocking, parrying, and dodging are things the player controls themselves. This is the kind of combat common in MMOs like Guild Wars 2, ARPGs like Kingdoms of Alamur: Reckoning, and action games like Shadow of Mordor.

As odd as it may sound, many people like the old school "slow" combat because one spends ones time carefully considering each move like a chess match, rather then frenetically pressing buttons so something awesome happens. As someone who started playing RPGs in the 80's and cut their teeth on games like Ultima IV, slow, tactical combat is near and dear to my gaming heart.

[Rawgrim]

This.

 

It's been blantently obvious since DA2 was announced that Laidlaw doesn't even like Origins much, he's wanted to move away from it as much as possible from day 1, the problem is, his ideas about what make a better Dragon Age game are only better in his own head, he's failed the series miserably as far as I'm concerned.

 

I've said for ages they should have given him a Jade Empire sequel or something to work on, where he could have put his own ideas to better use, rather than butcher an already succesful franchise.

 

I think he would have been excellent for action adventure games. But he seems to be fumbling when it comes to rpgs. Might be EA is hampering him too, though. Not sure what is going on there. He seems like a nice fellow, though.

[l7986]

I kind of wish the devs had told us to STFU about Hawke and that he/she was going to be the main character of inquisition.

[Farangbaa]

Is this some kind of joke? Antikythera Hero was the most revolutionary computer game ever made. Those Greeks were hardcore gamers.

This would be really funny

Except the Greek didn't exist 5000 years ago

[Fearsome1]

The sequel to Dragon Age: Origins was called Awakening. Had your Warden survived the archdemon, he/she became Warden-Commander of Ferelden and continued the battle against the darkspawn (who took on a more pernicious aspect; talking,  etc.).

 

That excellent expansion was a true SEQUEL! Asking for another is redundant. The DA franchise has gone in other directions. What is so hard to understand about that?

[ADelusiveMan]

I'd say Inquisition is as close as you're ever going to get to a true 'sequel' as far as gameplay goes. They basically took what everyone liked about both games and then expanded on it.

[_Aine_]

I think that the fans will never get another DAO.  The story has been told firstly, but perhaps more importantly the Vision is no longer the same. Whether the change in vision is better or worse of course is up to the individual.   Everyone has their own "style" and getting different people directing the vision and game would obviously change the way it is done.  The feel is like their fingerprint.  No matter how much they try to change, that fingerprint is still there.  Kind of like character design, you can tell people's style by how they build faces, despite differences in features.  Kind of like alchemy but I digress....

 

 Inquisition, in my opinion, is at the very least better than DA2.  The story, while good, didn't feel as "deep" as DAO in terms of our own investment in the outcome, but it did have an interesting method on its own of uncovering a story differently and building your path as you go.  As positive as I am about Inquisition, there are several areas I wish were done differently.  There are certain areas where the "choice and consequence" felt very "surfacey" and artificial also. (Sorry Bioware) I think those areas could be either avoided or perhaps better hidden but regardless, bottom line is:  It's not my game, only my experience.  I comment on how the experience worked for me in the hope that in terms of bulk data (not my own voice being heard) that the majority opinion is heard somewhere.    I think more than anything though, that they may feel "done" with this particular chantry-centric story.  It felt like a wind-down rather than an epic finish despite it being a good game!  I think maybe that is what many people are feeling when they finish.   When the story continues, I would bet that it will enter a new phase, just based on the way it "ended" here.  Speculation only mind you but speculation is fun.  

 

Also, small note here: different characters, races, choices do play out differently giving a stronger or weaker view of the story in what I have experienced so far.  So, to a small degree (but still a relatively tangible one) the impression you get may be quite different depending on WHO you were, what you did, what you chose, and who you connected with most in game.  In some cases, quite different.  Had my second playthrough been my first, I think my overall opinion may have been different.  My third is different still.  Some are definitely stronger than others.  

[Melyanna]

I'm very likely outnumbered, but I very much want DA2 "2", just without the plot constraints like Petrice, Orsino/Meredith, etc. With more narrative freedom and better environments a game like that could be stellar.

 

I agree with this: I think DA2 had a great plot and amazingly written characters. I would have loved it if it didn't have the technical flaws you mentioned.

Even though I really like RPGs where you can truly customize your character (as in, name, the way it looks, background, etc), and Origins was the best of the series from this point of view.

 

Overall, I agree with those who said that Awakening was great as a sequel to Origins, and that Inquisition does not feel like a spin off at all.

 

I will love and miss Origins forever, because nothing was quite like it at the time, but this doesn't mean that Inquisition isn't good, or that Bioware needs to give us a "Origins 2" - I am just being nostalgic.
I think a small amount of nostalgia is normal, but that is not a good excuse to blindly criticize the new products.

[vnth]

Why do everyone refer to DAO as nostalgia like it's some relic from the late antiquity? 2007-2008 is not that long ago. I'm still playing it (albeit with texture mods) and it looks much better than Divinity original sin. Graphical improvement from DAi is not really that impressive and the animation is very bit as awkward as DAO.

[rak72]

Really? I had the opposite experience; every minute spent in Inquisition made me long for Origins again (and I just played it just before DAI launched). DAI's simplistic combat, poorly implemented controls, horrible UI, and largely pointless open word only served to ram home to me the point that a smaller game with a narrower story focus is much better than a massive game filled with trivia that doesn't really matter, as all that filler simply distracts from the main plot of the game. Flash graphics and huge zones mean nothing if they don't enhance the story and gameplay, and overall the things we lost on the way to Inquisition seem far greater than the things we gained.

This

 

I miss being able to play with M/KB, I miss the UI, I miss choosing my skill points when I level up.  I miss having my whole arsenal of abilities at my disposal. The armor is SOOOOOO boring now - all the same for the 3 classes.  I hate the PJs, and miss being able to run around naked if I wanted.  Ugh, and the hair, and the lack of mod support to help remedy some of these.

 

The over simplification drained all of the soul out of the game.  There are 3 or 4 beefy parts to the story  and the rest is a bunch of bla bla bla filler.  It was alright, and I got many hours of enjoyment from it, but I am looking forward to going back to DAO (and I was playing right before DAI came out, so it's not just wistful nostalgia).

 

I really don't find it to be all that "open world" either.

[Melyanna]

Why do everyone refer to DAO as nostalgia like it's some relic from the late antiquity? 2007-2008 is not that long ago. I'm still playing it (albeit with texture mods) and it looks much better than Divinity original sin. Graphical improvement from DAi is not really that impressive and the animation is very bit as awkward as DAO.

 

Well, for me at least, it's not because it's old, but because it gives me that warm and fuzzy feeling of "This when it all started. My blossoming relationship with the DA franchise looked so cute"... (err, maybe that sounded a little creepy - I just hope it gives you an idea of what I mean with nostagia).
It also helps that the characters where a lot younger and more innocent than the average Hawke, or Inquisitor.

[sch1986]

 
To Bioware's credit, meeting Dorian actually makes me want to play as someone from North Thedas, preferably someone from Tevinter. Ideally you would be playing the leader of some kind of underground group whose motives and methods you decide. Perhaps you're Tevinters answer to Cerberus, seeking to improve the power and influence of the Imperium across the world, or perhaps your goal is to topple the current power structure. Either way it could make for an interesting game.

Love this idea... I think it would be a really amazing story given tevinter's views about the rest of the world. They could do a lot with NPC interactions if you choose not to be a Mage. Or they could do a lot if they allow you to be a human without nobility status. I can't even imagine how they would treat an elf (ex-slave perhaps rising to power?), or a dwarf. Given the Tevinter Qun war I don't know if playing a Qunari would make sense here. But maybe they could come up with something else to make up for it. Or even if you are a human noble traveling to places out side Tevinter would probably get interesting feedback from NPCs.

[LupoCarlos]

It'd be fanservice, and i hate fanservice.

 

I'd do like for our character to find an archdemon an corrupt it, so it'd begin the next blight. It'd be awesome for that character to be the hero of Ferelden.

[Han Master]

This.
 
It's been blantently obvious since DA2 was announced that Laidlaw doesn't even like Origins much, he's wanted to move away from it as much as possible from day 1, the problem is, his ideas about what make a better Dragon Age game are only better in his own head, he's failed the series miserably as far as I'm concerned.
 
I've said for ages they should have given him a Jade Empire sequel or something to work on, where he could have put his own ideas to better use, rather than butcher an already succesful franchise.

Yup, not wasting any more money for bioware. The quality of their games went down hill after ME 2.

[AlanC9]

So first your post was directed towards somethings I'm not. I' not young,

Actually, I wasn't particularly interested in your age, or your reasons for liking complexity. I was just discussing how my own tastes in these matters has developed. Though, yeah, my working hypothesis was that you were a bit younger than you are, mostly because I've seen a fair amount of hysterical overstatement in your posts, and that's often associated with younger members.

Anyway, since you've brought up your age yourself, I suppose I should mention that you fit right in with a hypothesis we were kicking around on the ME boards last year which seems to apply here as well. Attachment to "traditional CRPG" mechanics" -- to use a fairly nebulous phrase -- seems be, on average, a good deal higher among players in the middle of our demographic than it is for either the younger or the older players. The reasons for this -- assuming it's even a real thing -- are debatable.

[DanAxe]

I loved Origins. I played it countless times. And I will probably play it again sometime. But that is done and over. To be honest i like Inquisition's game style much better than Origins. So to me, an Origins 2 would be a no no.

 

I understand that Inquisition story might not be as impactful as origins, but i think thats because its such a large game, with so many aspects and so many things to do, that the main story kinda gets lost in all the rest. After 2 playthroughs of Inquisition, i can say now (contrary to what i thought after my 1st pt) that the story is really good. You just have to stop looking at it as "the main quests are the story". Its not. The story is everything. In every region (even if not related to the main story) has loads of stuff that connects to the Dragon Age story as a whole (and not just as 1 game). Theres pieces of lore and stories to explore at every corner of every map. To me, thats also the story of this game (and ofc the story of the whole saga). I couldnt care less that most areas didnt have a main story quest in them, i was just as excited to explore them as the zones with main quests.

 

You could argue that the main quests are still too few considering the size of the game. And i cant disagree with that. But i think the storymode DLC's will fix that, to the point when all the DLC's for Inquisition are out, you will be able to pick up the game again, play it from scratch to the end of every dlc and feel like the main story is much bigger and using a lot more of this amazing world game they created and dish out a whooping 200h playthrough without breaking a sweat, enjoying every minute of it.

 

If anything, I think Inquisition is a step in the right direction. Could it be better? Yes it could. But its still one hell of a ride, and will only get better with DLCs.

[AlanC9]

As odd as it may sound, many people like the old school "slow" combat because one spends ones time carefully considering each move like a chess match, rather then frenetically pressing buttons so something awesome happens. As someone who started playing RPGs in the 80's and cut their teeth on games like Ultima IV, slow, tactical combat is near and dear to my gaming heart.

It's not quite clear to me why this is a problem with fast combat per se as long as the pause button still exists. Personally, I'd rather keep fast execution for the fights where I'm just going to steamroll everything without pausing, which will be most of them unless Bio radically revises their aporoach to combat design.

[Thane4Ever]

IDK, I just replayed DAO after finishing DAI. It's still the same great game, with great characters, great voice acting, standard-issue fantasy story and good gameplay (especially with some of the mods.) However, I was really struck by something I had forgotten - DAO was full of reused areas and the worst possible pointless fetch quests...full of them. It was tedious.

 

Having played both in the last month or so, I'd say that DAI is simply miles ahead in the side quests department. No crap mages collective quests, pointless hooded couriers, no same 5 "encounter" maps.

What were the reused areas? I just replayed as well. Seemed like each village and area was different, except for the Deep Roads, but even the Thaigs were somewhat different.  I don't mean to be snarky I genuinely want to know. Nothing like the reuse in DA2.

 

Also, the pointless fetch quests were annoying in both games.  At least in Origins you could easily avoid them since they were clustered with each NPC (Blackstone Irregulars, Chantry, etc).  DA:I was lacking in in the sort of NPC side quests like finding the Blacksmith's daughter (if you don't find her he hangs himself), I thought that was pretty good stuff, or the creepy orphanage in Denerim.

[Gustave Flowbert]

I would love a DLC/expansion that let's us delve into the origins of our characters a bit. I like the bits and pieces we pick up from gameplay but I think it would be so neat if there is this new map that unlocks for whatever reason and it's actually a very important place from our past!!! So we get flash backs to our time there and then our time in the present with the Inquisition as we explore and beat up baddies/find neat loot/get some new story tidbits.

 

I actually thought this would have been a perfect way to transition Inquisitors during the main story progression from their past to the leader of this organization but I do still like the end product we're playing.