50 réponses à ce sujet

[simpatikool]

It is the solution. And man I am SURE that a low budget game like a Baldur's Gate in Thedas would be ridiculously easy for Bioware to make. I couldn't care less about this Inquisition bullshit if they gave me low low low budget old style RPG in Thedas. It is happiness for everyone. They would spend 1cent to make a crappy old rpg game we would GLADLY pay them trillions of euros + our souls, and everybody would be happy. But no, they want console dumbs to be happy and **** the others.

 

I am sorry, but I enjoyed the hell out of the original Baldur's gate series. Heck, Ice Wind Dale is still my most treasured game as far as nostalgic RPG memories are concerned, but progress is progress. Dragon Age Inquisition is a hell of a lot of fun to play. Why do we have to always harken back to yesteryear? I like the direction they have gone. It is  not perfect, but it is a solid game and worth playing the hell out of.

[Cyonan]

All good ones: Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights for instance.

Unless you are one of those dellusional people who think that people would even bother about a Bioware RPG if not for those D&D games.

There was no Dragon Age, there was "building on top of D&D fame"

Of course with the name Origins they wanted to make their own road from there on. And they did.

I just hated them for using me and other fans of old for creating this shitty world they did, this not-D&D.

Yeah, I loved this game, perhaps I should call it not-D&D Origins.

Then came not-D&D 2.

Now we have not-RPG Origins which means the next one will probably be not-RPG 2.

Then I'm sure it will be just-another-random-action-game

Sad thing they tried to lure the fans that gave them money to create this shitty not-D&D into liking their "original" (ROFLMAO) world

But happily Inquisition made sure never again

 

As far as I know they never acted like Origins was going to be D&D. A spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate sure, but that doesn't imply that it's going to be identical in terms of mechanics.

 

Besides, D&D never really translated into video games all that well from a mechanics standpoint. I just can't call it good design if the game expects you to have read a 300 page manual from an entirely different game in order to understand half of what the tooltips are telling you, even if I do personally understand them. Also, THAC0 can go die in a fire in any ruleset.

 

Plus if we want to talk about BioWare games which didn't strictly use D&D rulesets that got them lots of fans pre-EA: Kotor and Jade Empire need mentioning.

[Andraste_Reborn]

This is like the ultimate toggle request.

 

I hate to think how many kittens the developers will have to punt out the window if they ever read this. It'll be like adorable but horrifying rain.

[Sylvius the Mad]

DAO was developped mainly before EA bought BIoware. And you know it, you're just purposedly playing dumb, which is hardly a good way to argue in good faith.

The sale to EA was made necessary because no one would publish DAO.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Besides, D&D never really translated into video games all that well from a mechanics standpoint. I just can't call it good design if the game expects you to have read a 300 page manual from an entirely different game in order to understand half of what the tooltips are telling you, even if I do personally understand them.

But there should be a 300 page manual.

Where's DAI's 300 page manual? Where's DAI's 30 page manual.

This game needs documentation.

[His Majesty Lord Crash]

Besides, D&D never really translated into video games all that well from a mechanics standpoint. I just can't call it good design if the game expects you to have read a 300 page manual from an entirely different game in order to understand half of what the tooltips are telling you, even if I do personally understand them. Also, THAC0 can go die in a fire in any ruleset.

 

I've played BG back in the days without having any previous knowledge about the D&D ruleset. I had no problem to get into it, even without reading the 300 page manual. But in the end it's indeed about dedication. Most old-school games required some dedication until you get rewards. Most modern games can't give you rewards soon enough and I don't think that's a good developement.

 

I also share your thoughts about D&D and it's translation to video games (and even general problems like the effects of the Vancian magic system and the typcial linear warrior, quadruple mages problems and so on). But I've rarely seen a better overall tactical combat and gameplay mechanic in video games ever since. So the real question is not whether D&D is perfect for video games but whether you can come up with something better. And I don't think Bioware achieved so far in coming up with something better, at least no for fans of tactical party based RPGs. Of course, I don't share the idea that action gameplay fits video games better than tactical or P&P-inspired gameplay in general.

 

The sale to EA was made necessary because no one would publish DAO.

 

Sorry, but I think that's pure speculation. Or do you have any solid quotes for that statement? And even if it's true it doesn't change the fact that it was pretty much the end of the "old" Bioware...

[Sylvius the Mad]

So the real question is not whether D&D is perfect for video games but whether you can come up with something better.

GURPS. A Real-Time-with-Pause CRPG using GURPS rules. So a fully classless system where everything makes sense together. Where daggers do less damage than swords, and magic can be awe-inspiringly powerful (but only with effort).

Sorry, but I think that's pure speculation. Or do you have any solid quotes for that statement?

Not anymore. It's been a long time.

And even if it's true it doesn't change the fact that it was pretty much the end of the "old" Bioware...

Arguably true, but it would suggest that there was no commercial avenue available wherein they could make big traditional games.

I suggested shortly after KotOR came out (because BioWare had launched their own online store for NWN modules) that BioWare should switch to smaller market games and distribute them digitally, rather than relying on publishers.

They elected to go another direction.

[His Majesty Lord Crash]

GURPS. A Real-Time-with-Pause CRPG using GURPS rules. So a fully classless system where everything makes sense together. Where daggers do less damage than swords, and magic can be awe-inspiringly powerful (but only with effort).

 

I have to look into that, thanks for the hint.

 

But then again I doubt somebody used the system so far in a video game? And even if somebody did it wasn't Bioware. They wanted to create their own mechanics but imho they failed to offer better mechanics to what D&D offered already 10 years before...

[DemGeth]

DA:I is great hopefully they expand on it in the next DA.

[tmp7704]

Inquisition is in no way better than DA2, apart from pure visuals. Everything else is just worse, sorry.

When you say "everything else", do you genuinely mean to include there things like parachuting waves of enemies, dialogues which bordered on nonsensical exchanges of "witty" one liners, inability to participate in the party banter, completely disjointed conversation tones and the world generally not reacting to the tones you picked, being locked to single race, and more? Do you consider all these things as DA2 doing it better?

[ladyvader]

Stop lying to yourself. EA bought Bioware in october 2007. Dragon Age: Inquisiton was released november 2009.

Who's purposely playing dumb here? I can assure you it's not dreamgazer.

Mass Effect was developped mainly before the acquisition. Maybe you have them mixed up or something?

(and I feel like I need to add: the, in my opinion, vastly overpraised Mass Effect 2, was developped COMPLETELY under the wing of EA)

 

 

Mainly?  ME was released in November 2007 on Xbox 360 and was an exclusive.  Or my copy says so anyway.  March 2008 is when it was released on PC.

[Cyonan]

 

I've played BG back in the days without having any previous knowledge about the D&D ruleset. I had no problem to get into it, even without reading the 300 page manual. But in the end it's indeed about dedication. Most old-school games required some dedication until you get rewards. Most modern games can't give you rewards soon enough and I don't think that's a good developement.

 

I also share your thoughts about D&D and it's translation to video games (and even general problems like the effects of the Vancian magic system and the typcial linear warrior, quadruple mages problems and so on). But I've rarely seen a better overall tactical combat and gameplay mechanic in video games ever since. So the real question is not whether D&D is perfect for video games but whether you can come up with something better. And I don't think Bioware achieved so far in coming up with something better, at least no for fans of tactical party based RPGs. Of course, I don't share the idea that action gameplay fits video games better than tactical or P&P-inspired gameplay in general.

 

The first time I played the older games I hadn't done D&D yet and I still managed to blunder my way through things, but that doesn't change the point. I'm not talking about getting rewarded by the game, but rather having the game giving me the basic information I need so that I can make informed decisions rather than having to blunder through it or Google it.

 

I can't think of too many great examples of tactical gameplay mechanics while staying within the RPG genre. Shadowrun Returns is pretty solid, as is Fallout's SPECIAL system other than a few balance issues with Intelligence. In all honesty despite it not being a RPG, I'd probably say my favourite tactical turn based mechanics are in Fire Emblem(although not a huge fan of the pairing up system that Awakening used in place of the old rescue system).

 

 

But there should be a 300 page manual.

Where's DAI's 300 page manual? Where's DAI's 30 page manual.

This game needs documentation.

 

Oh I'm not against a manual. Just when the manual is for an entirely different game than the one I bought.

 

and yes, documentation is something BioWare needs to work on. It would have saved a lot of time in Mass Effect 3 =P

 

They actually kind of went in the reverse direction I'm asking for. Instead of better explaining the underlying mechanics of the game they seem to be trying to hide them even more.

[Jinnrou]

It takes them years to develop and release one game and they release it full of bugs and horrendous design choices. You expect them to release two different games for two different styles of play?

 

Yeah, that's not happening.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I have to look into that, thanks for the hint.

But then again I doubt somebody used the system so far in a video game? And even if somebody did it wasn't Bioware. They wanted to create their own mechanics but imho they failed to offer better mechanics to what D&D offered already 10 years before...

Fallout was supposed to use GURPS, but then Steve Jackson Games pulled the license at the last minute, so Black Isle had to invent SPECIAL pretty much on the spot.

[theluc76]

Quick, name a Dragon Age game that doesn't have EA's label on it.

DAO, the batch when it first came out.

[Akka le Vil]

I have to look into that, thanks for the hint.

 

But then again I doubt somebody used the system so far in a video game? And even if somebody did it wasn't Bioware. They wanted to create their own mechanics but imho they failed to offer better mechanics to what D&D offered already 10 years before...

 

Fallout is based on GURP.
 

[Lord Marcus]

Stop lying to yourself. EA bought Bioware in october 2007. Dragon Age: Inquisiton was released november 2009.

Who's purposely playing dumb here? I can assure you it's not dreamgazer.

Mass Effect was developped mainly before the acquisition. Maybe you have them mixed up or something?

(and I feel like I need to add: the, in my opinion, vastly overpraised Mass Effect 2, was developped COMPLETELY under the wing of EA)

Mass Effect 2 was awesome and made its mark as the best RPG shooter of the decade. Fact is there are no other RPG shooters that come close to the ME Trilogy.. Not even fallout and Deus ex. As for DA: Inquisition im on my 25th playthrough after playing 6 years still having fun collecting shards at the hissing wastes. Also a NEW Mass Effect is headed our way which will be an awesome game under EA/Bioware which im sure everyone who are not into mindless games like GTA and COD will buy the ME4 product and DLC.

[SofaJockey]

Mass Effect 2 was awesome and made its mark as the best RPG shooter of the decade.

 

As for DA: Inquisition im on my 25th playthrough after playing 6 years still having fun collecting shards at the hissing wastes.

 

ME2 was indeed awesome, best of the three.

Even given the multiple times I've played, I would certainly play a 'Definitive Edition' Next-gen upgrade of the ME Trilogy.

 

Played DAI for 6 years? wow, affected by the time travel rift clearly 

[katokires]

As far as I know they never acted like Origins was going to be D&D. A spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate sure, but that doesn't imply that it's going to be identical in terms of mechanics.

 

Besides, D&D never really translated into video games all that well from a mechanics standpoint. I just can't call it good design if the game expects you to have read a 300 page manual from an entirely different game in order to understand half of what the tooltips are telling you, even if I do personally understand them. Also, THAC0 can go die in a fire in any ruleset.

 

Plus if we want to talk about BioWare games which didn't strictly use D&D rulesets that got them lots of fans pre-EA: Kotor and Jade Empire need mentioning.

KOTOR, right? AUSHAUHSUHAUHSUHA You are funny.

As for Jade Empire, I installed, saw it was an action game, uninstalled. I live martial arts since I was 5, but no, can't stand playing action games if it had NWN or BG mechanics I would totally play it. But the thing is I know nothing of Jade Empire sales, I know nothing of Jade Empire but it didn't look like it was a original world from Bioware, if it wasn't it would still fit the problem I said, that Bioware used the money from fans to grow and make games not for these same fans.
 

 

I am sorry, but I enjoyed the hell out of the original Baldur's gate series. Heck, Ice Wind Dale is still my most treasured game as far as nostalgic RPG memories are concerned, but progress is progress. Dragon Age Inquisition is a hell of a lot of fun to play. Why do we have to always harken back to yesteryear? I like the direction they have gone. It is  not perfect, but it is a solid game and worth playing the hell out of.

You should really be sorry for you lack of mental capacity to understand the OP and my post. That's precisely the point. You like the direction they wen, I don't. They make two kinds of games. Everybody is happy. Try again.

Also as I said in another post, who enjoys a game says nothing about it, who they make the game for says a lot. So even if the most BG hardcore likes Inquisition it doesn't say **** if it was or wasn't for BG fans, or NWN fans or DAO fans. But getting rid of stat districution in both character creation and level ups, simplifying tactics, stat system, skill system, secialization, conditions, and on, and on, and onm simplifying everything, that says a lot. Specially simplifying character making/building which is mark of old RPGs.

 

Why is that that you enjoying the game doesn't say anything? Or why a hardcore BG lover liking Inquisition doesn't say anything? Because people like different kinds of games so that's why some changes fit some people and not others. To know if a game is made for the previous fans you need to look at factm, characteristics that made the previous games what they were and that were changed. You need to be objective since liking or not doesn't tell ****.

 

So for those interested in story, writting, companions and so on Inquisition is probably great and you are probably one of these. For those like me who absolutely loved and need those mechanics of old Inquisition is pure **** since they got rid of everything compeling that the mechanics from BG, NWN and DAO had. But again... of old? As much as 2014 is old since Divinity and Wasteland did a great job with complex mechanics. So yeah, it is old, right? Smashing buttons is old too and Inquisition is just that.

[AlanC9]

As for Jade Empire, I installed, saw it was an action game, uninstalled. I live martial arts since I was 5, but no, can't stand playing action games if it had NWN or BG mechanics I would totally play it. But the thing is I know nothing of Jade Empire sales, I know nothing of Jade Empire but it didn't look like it was a original world from Bioware,

So you didn't learn much about Jade Empire in the 30 seconds or so you played it? I guess that makes sense. But how'd you get as far as installing JE without knowing that it was an action RPG? It's not like Bio was hiding that.
 
 

You should really be sorry for you lack of mental capacity to understand the OP and my post. That's precisely the point. You like the direction they wen, I don't. They make two kinds of games. Everybody is happy.

This only works for everybody if Bio doubles the amont of games they make, so everybody gets just as many games as they would have before. (And people who like both styles do even better that way, of course.) If the number of games stays the same, then someone who likes the new direction is hurt by half of Bio's output going to a style he doesn't like.

[Sidney]

Fallout was supposed to use GURPS, but then Steve Jackson Games pulled the license at the last minute, so Black Isle had to invent SPECIAL pretty much on the spot.

SPECIAL remains my favorite CRPG system.

[Cyonan]

KOTOR, right? AUSHAUHSUHAUHSUHA You are funny.

As for Jade Empire, I installed, saw it was an action game, uninstalled. I live martial arts since I was 5, but no, can't stand playing action games if it had NWN or BG mechanics I would totally play it. But the thing is I know nothing of Jade Empire sales, I know nothing of Jade Empire but it didn't look like it was a original world from Bioware, if it wasn't it would still fit the problem I said, that Bioware used the money from fans to grow and make games not for these same fans.

 

KotoR falls under a game that got them plenty of fans that didn't use a D&D ruleset despite being based on dice rolls. Not sure what you're on about there, unless you're really going to discount it because it used the Star Wars licence.

 

You not liking or not knowing anything about Jade Empire doesn't mean anything. It's an older pre-EA BioWare game that people liked, and it's an original world that's heavily based on asian themes.

 

It was actually one of BioWare's first games that didn't licence something else as BG and NWN both are part of the Forgotten Realms D&D setting.

 

but either way I imagine it's all irrelevant. BioWare doesn't seem to be into making low budget isometric RPGs and is focused on high budget cinematic story based games.

 

That and EA would have to actually green light it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

KotoR falls under a game that got them plenty of fans that didn't use a D&D ruleset despite being based on dice rolls. Not sure what you're on about there, unless you're really going to discount it because it used the Star Wars licence.

You not liking or not knowing anything about Jade Empire doesn't mean anything. It's an older pre-EA BioWare game that people liked, and it's an original world that's heavily based on asian themes.

It was actually one of BioWare's first games that didn't licence something else as BG and NWN both are part of the Forgotten Realms D&D setting.

but either way I imagine it's all irrelevant. BioWare doesn't seem to be into making low budget isometric RPGs and is focused on high budget cinematic story based games.

That and EA would have to actually green light it.

KotOR used d20 rules, just like NWN.

If it had used the old d6 SWRPG rules, it would have been better.

[Akka le Vil]

KotoR falls under a game that got them plenty of fans that didn't use a D&D ruleset despite being based on dice rolls.

KotOR doesn't use STRICTLY SPEAKING the D&D ruleset, but the D20 system is close enough to be the same

[akabane_k]

revert tactical cam and tactics menu to origins

Make combat a bit more complex

Things work better when you try to improve rather than redo everything