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Dragon Age Inquisition and Females/Gender roles


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#26
errantknight

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Bioware went a little crazy with all the women in leadership in this game I think.

 

Leader of the Wardens, Leader of Orlais, Leader of the elven rebellion, Leader of the Chantry, Leader of the mage rebellion, and 3 out 4 founds of the Inquisition are all women.

 

The only men we see in leadership roles are Cullen and Gaspard.

Ha. I bet you would never say 'Bioware went a little crazy with man in leadership, etc.' You should probably think about that for a minute.

...

 

OP, I really don't think the sex scenes in any of the games are intended as male fan service, but as a natural extension of an adullt story with adult relationships. They were recieved as well by female players as male, for the most part. Also mocked to as great a degree, lol. Those of you who've never done computer animation have no Idea how difficult animating something like that is while still being tasteful enough to get a mature rating and not higher.

 

Honestly the only place they went off track with the portrayal of females in this game was the walk/run animations, and I really think those were done with the best of intentions.



#27
errantknight

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One thing I really liked - random female guard captains. Even for NPCs, there is no default presumed gender - because that person in the face-and-gender-obscuring armor might just start talking with a very feminine voice. 

 

(I also really appreciated Cass' taste in terrible romance literature from a very different angle. Cass has effectively been made Tranquil and then cured. Even after curing, it makes an absurd amount of sense that her emotional responses are going to be off. Which is precisely why she has such a hard time writing and it's why she likes the sort of books with very over-the-top and obvious emotional cues)

This is a really interesting idea. Her emotions aren't exactly on an even keel. Her responses often tend to be very emotional, sometimes inappropriately so. She's not sure if the inquisitor is actually flirting with her, or if she imagined it. She often takes things more seriously than intended. Hmm. very interesting indeed. And she's the result of this in a very highly trained individual in a controlled environment. I can see this not going well with the tranquil.


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#28
caradoc2000

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Most of the NPCs you kill are still men, though.  Hopefully that's something that can be tackled in the future when people stop thinking it's okay when men die.

The high dragons are all women.


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#29
Nefla

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Of course you run into the problem that 'a lot of powerful females' [easily overshadowing males both in respect to their numbers and/or the power they wield] is completely unrealistic in and of itself given most of human history/civilisation. Especially in a loosely medieval setting where such would hardly be the expected norm :P  

 

That's not even factoring in Bioware consistently going out of their way to portray women as the better or default option. Anora as the experienced professional who ran Cailan's kingdom for him versus Alistair's [and Cailan's] idealism and lack of experience [interest]. Celene the nice reasonable peaceful pragmatist versus Gaspard the evil warmongering usurper. Even bad guy wise, Calpernia the noble ex-slave who wants to make her homeland a better place compared to Samson the druggy who just wants to go out in a blaze of glory before he overdoses. 

 

 

The first three are complete arses you're meant to kill/hate. Barris and Alexius are both natural lackeys. Stroud is a barely developed filler. Alistair has a 'better' female alternative [Anora] and Loghain is a deluded [ex-]bad guy [who is possibly redeemable]. Even Cullen and Gaspard are hardly great examples of male leadership given the former is a junky and the latter gets completely outplayed by Celene and Florianne unless you save his bacon.

 

How are the female examples any different? I'd say the male and female examples are the same quality.



#30
Nefla

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This is hilarious.  In the real world, in a medieval setting, there would be almost zero women soldiers, leaders, etc.  But for some reason the overabundance of female leaders and soldiers is a realistic portrayal of women in a medieval setting?  Uh-huh, OK.

 

It doesn't bother me, I could care less one way or the other.  It's a game with a mediocre on-a-good-day story.  But don't try saying that the female portrayal in this game is realistic, because it is not even close.  Bioware is becoming a huge PC progressive platform, but I don't care about that, either.  All I care about is this:  am I enjoying their games?

 

But the funniest part of the OP was the assumption that sex scenes are for guys, that women don't enjoy them or something....  Women watch that stuff, too.

It sure seems like it bothers you. Dragon Age is high fantasy with historical influence but is in no way historically accurate to any time period. (unless I napped through the history lesson about dragons, magic, elves, demons, crazy dream worlds, etc...) The closest time period being mimicked socially is our own modern one.


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#31
KaiserShep

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I prefer scenes where the sexes don't matter at all over something like the little girl-power-let's-show-the-men conversation in ME3 between Shepard and Eve. Imho the former makes the latter obsolete.

 

To be fair to the scene in ME3, Eve's speaking from the perspective of a member of a culture that is ruled seemingly exclusively by its males that is also severely violent (and failing). Of course, it would've been funny if Shepard had the option of saying "Yeah, we humans don't really have that problem."


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#32
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One thing I really liked - random female guard captains. Even for NPCs, there is no default presumed gender - because that person in the face-and-gender-obscuring armor might just start talking with a very feminine voice. 

 

(I also really appreciated Cass' taste in terrible romance literature from a very different angle. Cass has effectively been made Tranquil and then cured. Even after curing, it makes an absurd amount of sense that her emotional responses are going to be off. Which is precisely why she has such a hard time writing and it's why she likes the sort of books with very over-the-top and obvious emotional cues)

 

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I don't think tranquility did that. A lot of people like some really cheesy romance novels. :D



#33
KaiserShep

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Bioware went a little crazy with all the women in leadership in this game I think.

 

Leader of the Wardens, Leader of Orlais, Leader of the elven rebellion, Leader of the Chantry, Leader of the mage rebellion, and 3 out 4 founds of the Inquisition are all women.

 

The only men we see in leadership roles are Cullen and Gaspard.

 

Hey don't forget Andraste, who is basically the Jesus H. Christ of Thedas.



#34
TeraBat

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It sure seems like it bothers you. Dragon Age is high fantasy with historical influence but is in no way historically accurate to any time period. (unless I napped through the history lesson about dragons, magic, elves, demons, crazy dream worlds, etc...) The closest time period being mimicked socially is our own modern one.

 

If I may riff on your post a bit: if I really wanted to, I could do a fairly good writeup of how the various armors and weapons used in the game are completely inaccurate to their historical usage. The most accurate suit of armor is the Dalish, as it recognizes the flaws inherent in a chain/scale maille system (but even then, form fitting armor ain't gonna happen unless there are some hidden laces somewhere on your arms and legs, I don't care how many gaps you leave at the joints for movement). 

 

Not to mention the combat primacy of the horse and plate armor, which was the end-all, be-all of medieval warfare. And sure you get a mount in DAI, but it's optional. No medieval leader worth the jewels in their crown would be caught dead fighting on foot

 

But no one ever complains that the clothing, weapons, armor and battle tactics are inaccurate to medieval setting. Not to the extent that they complain that women and queer folk aren't discriminated enough to satisfy their sense of 'realism'. 

 

Edit: Okay, after pondering a bit, Blackwall's gambeson is also historically accurate. 


Modifié par TeraBat, 05 janvier 2015 - 08:50 .

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#35
IncendiarySheep

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And for every woman you can name there are easily several more men. It has nothing to do with taking away from those women, in fact that they managed to rise to prominence despite the disadvantages they faced in part marks them out. But to pretend there was somehow this unseen or unacknowledged 50/50 split is ridiculous. Are we all to pretend that Caesar conquered Gaul with Rome's great, and conveniently forgotten, female legions while we're at it? 

 

True.  But Caesar also did not have any conveniently forgotten legions of mages.  Magic in Thedas is hugely powerful, and is dependent upon some kind of inherent sensitivity to the fade that has nothing to go with gender or physical strength.  A single mage is worth many soldiers on the battlefield, so magic gives women an opportunity to stand with men on the battlefield and to demonstrate they can be both soldiers and leaders.  It undoubtedly also provides plenty of other opportunities for being useful.  That alone is a significant difference between Thedas and the opportunities available to women real medieval world.  And experience shows that once women have demonstrated leadership in one area, it is easier to accept them as leaders in others. 

 

Magic, or at least alchemy, also provides healing in Thedas.  The high death rate, particularly amongst children, in medieval societies meant that most women had to spend most of their lives pregnant just to ensure that they had enough offspring to ensure someone outlived them. Then they had to care for said truckload of children, usually without help from grandparents or other relatives (lifespans being rather limited).  Simply as a practical matter, that precluded married women from most other opportunities outside of the house ( although historical records do show that many women run in past generations run successful businesses from their homes - and looking slightly further back, Roman women in particular were very successful in business).  

 

Moreover, the religion of Thedas is based upon a female prophet - this makes it very, very different to Christianity and Islam and Buddhism and just about every other religion in the modern world, all of which were developed by male prophets, many of whom seem to have had real problems with women (who they may not have had all that much to do with, given the segregation problem I'll get to shortly).  Women have a powerful and significant place in the Andrastian faith, which appears to be the only unifying force in Thedas (much like Christianity in the early middle ages).  Again, this provides an opportunity for women to demonstrate they can be leaders and dispel any misogynistic assumption that they can't. It also allows women an opportunity to shape society, and its laws and culture that they did not have in judeo-Christian culture and ecclesiastic law. 

 

Plus, Thedas clearly has birth control of some description.  The male obsession with controlling women was, in past generations, inextricably tied to the desire to control female fertility, which in turn bred an obsession with virginity and resulted in segregating women and keeping them as 'innocent' (or ignorant) as possible.  Birth control obviously doesn't completely eliminate the male fear of raising children that are not genetically his, but it does mean that attitudes to sex change such that casual relationships become more acceptable.  With mixing and familiarity comes friendship and empathy and acceptance of one another - something that is much harder when men and women are kept as separate as possible to minimise the risk of infidelity

 

Similarly, while Dragon Age does not delve into the issue, it seems likely that attitudes to sexual assault are probably quite different in Thedas than in the real medieval world.  For most women in the medieval world, the threat of sexual assault was a very effective means of male control.  The emphasis of chastity meant that for middle and upper class women, their virginity was their most valuable possession - thus the language of 'giving' and 'taking' it.  With marriage a woman's main career choice, any form of extra martial sexual activity (or even a rumor of it) could result in her economic devastation.  Then there was the  threat of disease and pregnancy. Plus to top it all off,  a woman who was the victim of sexual assault was often without any remedy at all - for most of the medieval period, rape was not a crime against a women, but against her husband or father, she was not allowed to prosecute the offence in her own name (meaning widows and spinsters had no avenues or address), and if the matter did somehow come before an (all male) Court, her uncorroborated word was worth less than that of her alleged rapist (the latter remained the law in most common law jurisdictions until the 1990s).  Thus, the onus was on women to ensure that they were never in a position were they could be sexually assaulted, with the consequence that they had to be very cautious about what they did.  This is one reason why changing attitudes to sexual harassment and assault are such a pillar of feminism. 

 

I could go on and on about the differences ... they are endless, and I don't even need to touch elves and dwarves and demons.

 

In any case, it's certainly true that past eras on this world have generally sucked for women.  But to be completely fair, they have also sucked for most other people as well.  Societies have tended to be dominated by a small group of elite men, whose power, prestige and wealth came from their parents or their connections.  And even their lives could suck if they developed so much as a tooth abscess, a kidney stone, or a friendship with the wrong faction at Court.  Viewed in a greater historical context, the chances of Cassandra, a woman, rising to the head of a templar style order in the real world was really not that much less likely than Cullen, the commoner boy from a village in Nowheresville, doing it.  Yet that doesn't stop us having games filed with peasant heroes and noble, elderly kings.  That's one reason why we call it fantasy!


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#36
Heimdall

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I like what they did with women, I just wish they would spend more time developing male characters outside their stereotypical roles. I wasn't pleased that the only male in the Inquisition's leadership was "the military guy".

EDIT: Or that the Chantry's misandry is portrayed positively while Tevinter's misogyny is portrayed negatively.
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#37
Decepticon Leader Sully

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demotivation.us_THIS-Is-not-going-to-end

 

Honestly I don't care about the gender of my badass female character



#38
TeraBat

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Everything IncendiarySheep said, +1. 

 

I also want to point out one fallacy. 

 

There's some assumption going on that women, pre-First Wave, were all weak and incompetent. That's not true. Women have always been just as intelligent and strong as we've always been. Yes, many women have been denied access to education and power; and that is, always has been, and always will be, unjust. 

 

But Roman women or classical Greek women or Renaissance Venetian women weren't stupid. Many of them achieved excellence and influence as they were allowed; even though their achievements were later ignored in favor of men's achievements; and a man often took credit for what his wife accomplished. Pre-Industrial Revolution, many working class/peasant women worked right alongside their husbands, sons and brothers - because that was some hard effing work that didn't care who did it as long as it got done. Farming is hard, yo; and once upon a time, 80% of all human beings on the planet worked in agriculture.  

 

Also, riffing a bit on what IncendiarySheep said about birth control: It's not even about a man knowing his offspring; it's about giving a woman enough control over her body that she no longer has to choose between the frustration of celibacy and the threat of death in childbed; or celibacy and the overwhelming demands of childcare. It's about a woman only having as many children as she has resources to support; which in turn gives those children their best chance. 


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#39
Heimdall

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Everything IncendiarySheep said, +1. 
 
I also want to point out one fallacy. 
 
There's some assumption going on that women, pre-First Wave, were all weak and incompetent. That's not true. Women have always been just as intelligent and strong as we've always been. Yes, many women have been denied access to education and power; and that is, always has been, and always will be, unjust. 
 
But Roman women or classical Greek women or Renaissance Venetian women weren't stupid. Many of them achieved excellence and influence as they were allowed; even though their achievements were later ignored in favor of men's achievements; and a man often took credit for what his wife accomplished. Pre-Industrial Revolution, many working class/peasant women worked right alongside their husbands, sons and brothers - because that was some hard effing work that didn't care who did it as long as it got done. Farming is hard, yo; and once upon a time, 80% of all human beings on the planet worked in agriculture.  

Nobody's denying that woman were just as capable. Nobody has said that as far as I can tell. It should not be overstated, however, the point stands that the women who made those achievements despite the odds stacked against them were the exception rather than the rule. There was no hidden 50/50 split.
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#40
TeraBat

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Nobody's denying that woman were just as capable. Nobody has said that as far as I can tell. It should not be overstated, however, the point stands that the women who made those achievements despite the odds stacked against them were the exception rather than the rule. There was no hidden 50/50 split.

 

Your point as far as it extends to Dragon Age being...?

 

If the artificial barriers which IncendiarySheep did such a good job detailing are removed, then why shouldn't women be able to rise to positions of prominence and power? 


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#41
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I wasn't pleased that the only male in the Inquisition's leadership was "the military guy".

 

Well, there's my Inquisitor. You can borrow him if you want. :D

 

I'll give this a slide though, because there isn't much leadership anyways. It's a very small core group. As a male though, it felt balanced enough. 2 males and 3 females. With me and Cass the "field operatives".


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#42
Heimdall

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Your point as far as it extends to Dragon Age being...?

If the artificial barriers which IncendiarySheep did such a good job detailing are removed, then why shouldn't women be able to rise to positions of prominence and power?

What did yours have to do with Dragon Age?

Absolutely none, though I wish they were less idealized personally, and that Tevinter wasn't made out to be teh evul patriarchy. And that Chantry misandry wasn't given a pass, and that despite woman inhabiting roles outside their traditional roles in our society men are consigned to the same old roles. Nor am I a fan of all positive rulers being woman. All the male rulers in Dragon Age so far have been either warmongers, incompetent or there's a woman doing the real work behind the throne.
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#43
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What did yours have to do with Dragon Age?

Absolutely none, though I wish they were less idealized personally, and that Tevinter wasn't made out to be teh evul patriarchy. And that Chantry misandry wasn't given a pass, and that despite woman inhabiting roles outside their traditional roles in our society men are consigned to the same old roles. Nor am I a fan of all positive rulers being woman. All the male rulers in Dragon Age so far have been either warmongers or there's a woman doing the real work behind the throne.

 

I think that's a bit iffy with the Chantry. Some of the Chantry leadership has made controversial decisions. Like wiping Shartan out of the Chant (I might understand the war with the Dales, but Shartan didn't deserve that. It's an ugly move). In addition, we aren't guaranteed positivity here either. People all disagree on Vivienne and Leliana as Divines especially. Cass is more balanced, but even then, she has detractors too.


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#44
papercut_ninja

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Have a problem with how the game reflects realism?

 

...can you just wait a minute while I shoot fireballs out of my arse before I reply...



#45
Heimdall

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I think that's a bit iffy with the Chantry. Some of the Chantry leadership has made controversial decisions. Like wiping Shartan out of the Chant (I might understand the war with the Dales, but Shartan didn't deserve that. It's an ugly move). In addition, we aren't guaranteed positivity here either. People all disagree on Vivienne and Leliana as Divines especially. Cass is more balanced, but even then, she has detractors too.

That's good, but what bothers me more is that hardly anyone remarks on men being barred from the Chantry on principle.

#46
Farangbaa

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Bioware went a little crazy with all the women in leadership in this game I think.
 
Leader of the Wardens, Leader of Orlais, Leader of the elven rebellion, Leader of the Chantry, Leader of the mage rebellion, and 3 out 4 founds of the Inquisition are all women.
 
The only men we see in leadership roles are Cullen and Gaspard.


And how does that make you feel?

Why I said loosely medieval, it informs the general tone of the setting, not the specific content.
 
 
And for every woman you can name there are easily several more men. It has nothing to do with taking away from those women, in fact that they managed to rise to prominence despite the disadvantages they faced in part marks them out. But to pretend there was somehow this unseen or unacknowledged 50/50 split is ridiculous. Are we all to pretend that Caesar conquered Gaul with Rome's great, and conveniently forgotten, female legions while we're at it?


Stop. This is ridiculous. If you're going to compare it with real life: SHOW ME THE DAMM DRAGONS.

There are none, your realism argument fails.

#47
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That's good, but what bothers me more is that hardly anyone remarks on men being barred from the Chantry on principle.

 

True. The only time I've seen it in the whole series is here though.. When you can ask Giselle , for example.. "Why only human women?" They never even bothered addressing it before. I think?



#48
papercut_ninja

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That's good, but what bothers me more is that hardly anyone remarks on men being barred from the Chantry on principle.

 

Yes it is almost as if there exists some invisible matriarchial structure that everyone just accepts and takes for granted...the epiphany is so close...


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#49
Farangbaa

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That's good, but what bothers me more is that hardly anyone remarks on men being barred from the Chantry on principle.


Oh? Roderick is a chick?

Never knew...

And honestly, I don't care that men are barred from the chantry on principle. Women have been, and still are in a lot of countries, barred from a lot of things on principle. And this is a videogame. If you can't handle being left out in a videogame, imagine what it must've been like for women in real life.
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#50
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Oh? Roderick is a chick?

Never knew...

And honestly, I don't care that men are barred from the chantry on principle. Women have been, and still are in a lot of countries, barred from a lot of things on principle. And this is a videogame. If you can't handle being left out in a videogame, imagine what it must've been like for women in real life.

 

He's just a bureaucrat. ;)

 

 

 

On a sidenote: I kind of wish he was in the game more though. He was an interesting character.