225 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

And I didn't mean to imply that all female rulers in Thedas were positive, just that NONE of the male rulers have been portrayed positively by themselves thus far.

[Ogillardetta]

And I didn't mean to imply that all female rulers in Thedas were positive, just that NONE of the male rulers have been portrayed positively by themselves thus far.

Cullen is a good leader. Gaspard seemed like the right choice to me in this game but Its so damn hard to stand there and let Celene die. 

[Heimdall]

Oh? Roderick is a chick?Never knew...And honestly, I don't care that men are barred from the chantry on principle. Women have been, and still are in a lot of countries, barred from a lot of things on principle. And this is a videogame. If you can't handle being left out in a videogame, imagine what it must've been like for women in real life.

Sorry, I thought we were trying to see the portrayal of woman in power in a video game as a positive. Heaven forbid we actually get a game where exclusion is acknowledged and at least remarked upon for the injustice it is...

Roderick is a clerk, he has no actual power and he isn't a priest.

[papercut_ninja]

And I didn't mean to imply that all female rulers in Thedas were positive, just that NONE of the male rulers have been portrayed positively by themselves thus far.

 

King Cailan, Duncan, Gregoir, Irving, Bann Teagan, Arl Eamon, Marlowe Dumar, Lord Harrowmont, Seneschal Varel...all fairly competent and well-meaning leaders...

[TeraBat]

What did yours have to do with Dragon Age?

Absolutely none, though I wish they were less idealized personally, and that Tevinter wasn't made out to be teh evul patriarchy. And that Chantry misandry wasn't given a pass, and that despite woman inhabiting roles outside their traditional roles in our society men are consigned to the same old roles. Nor am I a fan of all positive rulers being woman. All the male rulers in Dragon Age so far have been either warmongers, incompetent or there's a woman doing the real work behind the throne.

 

'Traditional roles'? According to which tradition? Even among European Christendom, gender roles did vary quite a lot (fun fact: California community property law is not, as most assume, due to liberal and forward-thinking hippies overrunning the state. Rather, it's a legacy from the Spanish settlers, who brought Spanish marital law with them in the 17th century; which itself was a legacy left to them by the Moorish (Islamic) occupation of Spain several centuries earlier). 

[Farangbaa]

Sorry, I thought we were trying to see the portrayal of woman in power in a video game as a positive. Heaven forbid we actually get a game where exclusion is acknowledged and at least remarked upon for the injustice it is...

Roderick is a clerk, he has no actual power and he isn't a priest.

 

Oh stop, please. When a woman says something like this on a forum all the men go mad and call her crazy feminist, SJW and all the blabla.

 

Now we have one instance of male injustice not being acknowledged and we men have to cry about it? Absolutely not. We're just going to suck it up.

[Heimdall]

Cullen is a good leader. Gaspard seemed like the right choice to me in this game but Its so damn hard to stand there and let Celene die.

Gaspard is a warmonger, and not a very competent one at that. I don't have a problem with Cullen as a leader, though how accurate that word is for his position I'm not sure, I have a problem with him, the only male advisor, being consigned to the military part of the organization. Cailan, Dumar, Gaspard, Loghain... Just once I'd like to see a male leader that isn't incompetent and renowned for something besides military service.

[TeraBat]

I missed the codex entry where Tevinter is a patriarchy. 

 

It's certainly a highly stratified and status-conscious society; where those on top are given near-absolute power over those below them. But I do not recall there ever being an implicit assumption that a man of a certain social class was automatically considered superior to a woman of his same class. As far as I can tell, the power differential in Tevinter has more to do with free vs slave and magic vs not magic than it does with gender. 

 

Also, Varric and Iron Bull are both spymasters nearly as effective as Lelianna (Varric with the Carta and Iron Bull with the Ben-Hasserath). 

 

And maybe I totally missed the point of that infamous ending scene... but I'm pretty sure Solas got a crapton of power, and none of it was military. 

 

Edit: And as long as we're banging the accuracy drum, birth and military service are both accurate depictions of how medieval men gained power. 

Modifié par TeraBat, 05 janvier 2015 - 11:44 .

[Heimdall]

'Traditional roles'? According to which tradition? Even among European Christendom, gender roles did vary quite a lot (fun fact: California community property law is not, as most assume, due to liberal and forward-thinking hippies overrunning the state. Rather, it's a legacy from the Spanish settlers, who brought Spanish marital law with them in the 17th century; which itself was a legacy left to them by the Moorish (Islamic) occupation of Spain several centuries earlier).

In Dragon Age, it's mostly military. though to give you an example of what I mean, for once I'd like to see a man as (off the top of my head) a caretaker of children while his wife is off taking advantage of the opportunities available to her in Thedas, instead if childcare remaining the mostly province of women as it seems to be.

[Heimdall]

Oh stop, please. When a woman says something like this on a forum all the men go mad and call her crazy feminist, SJW and all the blabla.
 
Now we have one instance of male injustice not being acknowledged and we men have to cry about it? Absolutely not. We're just going to suck it up.

If the goal is to tear down the assumptions of gender roles, it has to happen for both, not just for women.

There's nothing wrong with criticizing the way men are portrayed.

[TeraBat]

In Dragon Age, it's mostly military. though to give you an example of what I mean, for once I'd like to see a man as (off the top of my head) a caretaker of children while his wife is off taking advantage of the opportunities available to her in Thedas, instead if childcare remaining the mostly province of women as it seems to be.

 

What, like the father of the girl you potentially save in Honnleath? 

 

Or the single dad you're raised by as a City Elf; with an accompanying strong implication that your mother was the fighter in the family? 

 

Or how Arl Eamon took responsibility for raising a young Alistar, while Isolde basically ignored him? 

[Heimdall]

King Cailan, Duncan, Gregoir, Irving, Bann Teagan, Arl Eamon, Marlowe Dumar, Lord Harrowmont, Seneschal Varel...all fairly competent and well-meaning leaders...

A title does not make one a ruler. In order:

Incompetent, his wife is the real power behind the throne
Military order leader, not a ruler
Military order leader, not a ruler
Irving's fine, but not a ruler, ultimately subordinate to Fiona
Bann Teagan's fine, but not a ruler
Ditto
Meredith's stooge and incompetent
Suppressive traditionalist
Varel's not a ruler

[Heimdall]

What, like the father of the girl you potentially save in Honnleath? 
 
Or the single dad you're raised by as a City Elf; with an accompanying strong implication that your mother was the fighter in the family? 
 
Or how Arl Eamon took responsibility for raising a young Alistar, while Isolde basically ignored him?

The first two are great examples, would that there were more of them.

Actually Isolde did everything in her power to make Alistair unwelcome and convinced Eamon to send him away.

[Farangbaa]

If the goal is to tear down the assumptions of gender roles, it has to happen for both, not just for women.

There's nothing wrong with criticizing the way men are portrayed.

 

As long as people who remark about the bad way women are portrayed are still being vilified by men, there is.

 

And in light of just how badly we men have treated women are the past 20 millenia or so, I think we deserve a little injustice.

[Heimdall]

I missed the codex entry where Tevinter is a patriarchy. 
 
It's certainly a highly stratified and status-conscious society; where those on top are given near-absolute power over those below them. But I do not recall there ever being an implicit assumption that a man of a certain social class was automatically considered superior to a woman of his same class. As far as I can tell, the power differential in Tevinter has more to do with free vs slave and magic vs not magic than it does with gender. 
 
Also, Varric and Iron Bull are both spymasters nearly as effective as Lelianna (Varric with the Carta and Iron Bull with the Ben-Hasserath). 
 
And maybe I totally missed the point of that infamous ending scene... but I'm pretty sure Solas got a crapton of power, and none of it was military. 
 
Edit: And as long as we're banging the accuracy drum, birth and military service are both accurate depictions of how medieval men gained power.

First, I never said it was a patriarchy. I said it was portrayed as such, given how often the male Divine is made out to be one of the primary distinction that sets it apart from the female dominated south, coupled with all the diabolical blood magic and power mongering. Hence, by contrast with the south, it is made out to be 'teh evul patriarchy'.

Actually Iron Bull just gets messages from the Ben-Hassrath, he isn't managing a spy network and Varric outright tells you that Leliana is a better spymaster than him if you ask.

I like Solas, I don't see how him being an elven God is relevant to this discussion though.

I've never been "banging on the accuracy drum" in relation to Dragon Age. That would be silly.

[TeraBat]

The first two are great examples, would that there were more of them.

Actually Isolde did everything in her power to make Alistair unwelcome and convinced Eamon to send him away.

 

Which Eamon only did once he had secured a good position for Alistair among the Templars, and Alistair was old enough to leave and begin training. 

 

You also have to keep in mind that kids are pretty sparse in Dragon Age. They don't figure into a lot of plots, and they aren't even used as window dressing or setting elements. If we're focusing on accuracy, there should be a ton more kids running around than we see. Given that, 2-3 competent men raising kids is a pretty good ratio, I'd say. 

 

Also: while Cullen is a military leader, he also has a very emotionally raw character arc. He displays vulnerability and weakness; a radical departure from traditional depictions of stoic fighting men who are never sad or doubtful. Same with Blackwall and even Iron Bull - they are all men who express raw emotion at certain points during their personal stories. Dorian's emotional arc takes a different turn, but you can also see just how passionate he is about Tevinter and about making his homeland into a better place. Showing the sort of emotions which the men of Dragon Age express runs ardently counter to 20th century American thought about how men behave and express their feelings. 

 

So while many of the men shown have a significant military background, they are nevertheless permitted a greater emotional range than real-world war heroes. 

[Heimdall]

As long as people who remark about the bad way women are portrayed are still being vilified by men, there is.
 
And in light of just how badly we men have treated women are the past 20 millenia or so, I think we deserve a little injustice.

An eye for an eye makes everyone blind.

[TeraBat]

First, I never said it was a patriarchy. I said it was portrayed as such, given how often the male Divine is made out to be one of the primary distinction that sets it apart from the female dominated south, coupled with all the diabolical blood magic and power mongering. Hence, by contrast with the south, it is made out to be 'teh evul patriarchy'.

Actually Iron Bull just gets messages from the Ben-Hassrath, he isn't managing a spy network and Varric outright tells you that Leliana is a better spymaster than him if you ask.

I like Solas, I don't see how him being an elven God is relevant to this discussion though.

I've never been "banging on the accuracy drum" in relation to Dragon Age. That would be silly.

 

Aha. I see now you are simply arguing in bad faith. Either that, or you don't know what a patriarchy actually is; nor power. 

 

Done now! Have a good night! 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As long as people who remark about the bad way women are portrayed are still being vilified by men, there is.

 

And in light of just how badly we men have treated women are the past 20 millenia or so, I think we deserve a little injustice.

The men of today shouldn't suffer for what happened in the past. They weren't the ones to do those things. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Tevinter just sounds bad (or ultra competitive) in general. It's social darwinism. Males and females alike.

Exactly. The Tevinter Imperium is a Social Darwinist society.

The only set gender role is the Black Divine, which is always male to spite the Chantry whose Divine is always female. 

[nightscrawl]

Bioware went a little crazy with all the women in leadership in this game I think.
 
Leader of the Wardens, Leader of Orlais, Leader of the elven rebellion, Leader of the Chantry, Leader of the mage rebellion, and 3 out 4 founds of the Inquisition are all women.
 
The only men we see in leadership roles are Cullen and Gaspard.

Several of these you mentioned were already established characters pre-Inquisition. The Divine (non-Tevinter) is always a woman. Celene was crowned in 9:20 Dragon. Briala was established in The Masked Empire novel. Leliana is from DAO. Cassandra is from DA2. Fiona was originally from The Calling novel, and established as Grand Enchanter in Asunder.

DAI itself is merely the vehicle that brings all of these pre-established female characters together under a single title.

 

As far as men, you are missing a few. Corypheus himself is male. Even if you don't consider him such now, he was originally a human man. There are also Samson, Alexius, Erimond, Ser Barris, Abelas, and The Iron Bull can be partially counted as the leader of his mercenaries. All of these play a significant part in the section of the game they are featured in, either as a leader, a villain, or both of these.

 

What I like about the way BioWare treats women is that, for the most part, it's not really a factor at all. These are just characters that happen to be women, much like Ripley that the OP mentions. With regard to Warden Commander Clarel and Calpernia, I don't see how their gender has any bearing whatsoever (I have yet to finish my Calpernia play). Why not make them women too? You might say, "Why not make them men?" Well OK, but there is a gigantic swath of material out there with primarily male characters: male heroes, male villains, male cannon fodder; enough that a game like DAI is the rare exception. And given that their gender has no bearing on their behavior or the plot, I find the complaint to be shallow.

Feel free to post an example of how I'm wrong here, but I also didn't notice ANY examples of rape suggestion as a plot device, which was used in both DAO and DA2. If there is one in DAI, it was either so subtle as to go over my head or I just missed the dialog completely.

 

From my own observation, DAI appears to be BioWare's most progressive game to date. It's really amazing.

[Heimdall]

Which Eamon only did once he had secured a good position for Alistair among the Templars, and Alistair was old enough to leave and begin training. 
 
You also have to keep in mind that kids are pretty sparse in Dragon Age. They don't figure into a lot of plots, and they aren't even used as window dressing or setting elements. If we're focusing on accuracy, there should be a ton more kids running around than we see. Given that, 2-3 competent men raising kids is a pretty good ratio, I'd say. 
 
Also: while Cullen is a military leader, he also has a very emotionally raw character arc. He displays vulnerability and weakness; a radical departure from traditional depictions of stoic fighting men who are never sad or doubtful. Same with Blackwall and even Iron Bull - they are all men who express raw emotion at certain points during their personal stories. Dorian's emotional arc takes a different turn, but you can also see just how passionate he is about Tevinter and about making his homeland into a better place. Showing the sort of emotions which the men of Dragon Age express runs ardently counter to 20th century American thought about how men behave and express their feelings. 
 
So while many of the men shown have a significant military background, they are nevertheless permitted a greater emotional range than real-world war heroes.

And I do enjoy those things, and consider them a positive. I don't have a problem with the characters themselves. I just want a little more balanced male cast in regards to their skillset and background, particularly when it comes to leaders.