225 réponses à ce sujet

[Maverick827]

At least these threads are a good way to tell who should be ignored.

[Farangbaa]

Uh huh, and pretending men or white people today are somehow responsible and deserving of punishment for a past they had no part of is still ludicrous. That's vengeance, not justice.The scale doesn't matter. The goal is the center, not for the pendulum to swing the other.

That said, I think men have been harmed by traditional gender roles and expectations foisted upon them for just as long as women, though far less acknowledged. Even if you think women have had it worst, and they have, it doesn't mean men's problems shouldn't be acknowledged or addressed.

Again. WHERE IS THE PUNISHMENT?!?!

This is what's wrong in this entire debate. That men feel like they are getting punished somehow, while the only thing that's going on is that women are taking their fair share. That men feel like they are giving up something by given women equal right.

How white people feel like they are giving something up by given people of other colours the same rights as they have.

And again, for clarity and possibly shake your head a little: I am a heterosexual white male.

[ERINII]

In my country both genders are very close to equal, so I used to be very baffled over things like feminism and such. I started to understand debates like these only after I talked about the matter with my online friends. So yeah, I understand it, but I still fail to notice things like "powerful female leaders" because I'm not used to paying attention to things like that. People just are.

 

I read a few comments about BioWare doing a good job with creating a world where gender doesn't matter, and I'm glad to hear that it isn't just me. Characters are found likable or not because of their personality, not because of how they look or what gender they are.

[_Aine_]

I tend to listen to my first impression on such things.  As a female I don't know if I am typical of my gender or not in terms of game preference but when I played the game, nothing jumped out in any manner of "Yay, equality" or "booo, sexism" nor did it reek of politically correct compensation either.  

 

Maybe I am not "normal" here, but I honestly don't care about that sort of thing *as a strict rule* in gaming.  For RPG type games i would HOPE that there WAS a sexist character. A conservative character.A hypocrite character.  I want CHARACTERS not a game that sterilizes everything to fit the social mores of OUR time and yet is set in another.  Chainmail bikini on main character looks mostly ridiculous for obvious practical reasons.  On a desire demon?  It is a DESIRE demon.  It makes *more* sense not less.  

 

I really like logic to the point of it being a personal liability really lol, but i appreciate characters that break from one or two dimensional types.    Let them have a weakness that despite intelligence make them make a really bad decision. A religious character with a really bad sexual compulsion or bad habit (like Wicked Grace or something.)  Someone who stutters when angry etc.  A very racially tolerant character with an exceptional dislike for toes.     I look for personalities and quirks.  And even characters as a contrast who have few.   I think having a game "society" that reacts as that society would instead of how we want to believe our own world is at its best is simply good story telling when used cautiously and within reason (without using something shocking just to titillate.  Use it like salt:  use a little and people talk about the food, use a lot and all people will talk about is the salt.  )  I would hope that if we end up with the Qunari or Vints that our experience of the society would be drastically different.   But, that is me.  I guess I don't want to play in a white washed world that sells a "dark" environment.  Nor do I want a dark world that overdoes it just to say it is dark.  Balance.  Balance.  

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Bioware went a little crazy with all the women in leadership in this game I think.

 

Leader of the Wardens, Leader of Orlais, Leader of the elven rebellion, Leader of the Chantry, Leader of the mage rebellion, and 3 out 4 founds of the Inquisition are all women.

 

The only men we see in leadership roles are Cullen and Gaspard.

 

And literally every tevinter magister in the game.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Women starts pro-women's rights thread; men chime in about men's rights and receive arguments against it, no one bats an eye.

If a man started a pro-men's rights thread, women chimed in about women's rights, and receive arguments against it, everyone would be called a misogynist, the thread would be locked, some of the male posters would be given warnings, etc.

Let's just say that, from a gender equality perspective, there are still some things that can be done for everyone, and that no one is wrong for wanting their gender to be better represented.

 

The person who made the thread is a male.

[Maverick827]

And literally every tevinter magister in the game.

Who are, almost without question, mustache-twirling villians.

I will say that it would be amazing commentary if BioWare set DA4 in Tevinter and showed us a better side, and let us see the South from their perspective and actually have us believe them. We've only gotten one side of the story. Let us see the South razing the lands of Tevinter during an Exalted March, killing innocents. Let's see the Black Divine (the True Divine) as not Emperor Palpetine. Let's see magisters who aren't always sacrificing slaves for blood magic rituals.

I would hate it if they kept Tevinter this country of one-dimensional villains.

[_Aine_]

I agree with this, and it is *exactly* what I would love to see.  The view from the other side of the Looking Glass.    

 

Who are, almost without question, mustache-twirling villians.

I will say that it would be amazing commentary if BioWare set DA4 in Tevinter and showed us a better side, and let us see the South from their perspective and actually have us believe them. We've only gotten one side of the story. Let us see the South razing the lands of Tevinter during an Exalted March, killing innocents. Let's see the Black Divine (the True Divine) as not Emperor Palpetine. Let's see magisters who aren't always sacrificing slaves for blood magic rituals.

I would hate it if they kept Tevinter this country of one-dimensional villains.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Question. is there a point to this thread?

 

the all female chantery is a mirror of our world and a spin on other anchient religions who had female priests and Shamen its like every other fantasy worl wnith its faux vatican. 

 

to the guys above me i agree. 

[Maverick827]

The person who made the thread is a male.

Does that change anything?

But you're right, I shouldn't have assumed.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Who are, almost without question, mustache-twirling villians.

I will say that it would be amazing commentary if BioWare set DA4 in Tevinter and showed us a better side, and let us see the South from their perspective and actually have us believe them. We've only gotten one side of the story. Let us see the South razing the lands of Tevinter during an Exalted March, killing innocents. Let's see the Black Divine (the True Divine) as not Emperor Palpetine. Let's see magisters who aren't always sacrificing slaves for blood magic rituals.

I would hate it if they kept Tevinter this country of one-dimensional villains.

 

And the vast majority of power holding women are, almost without question, people who get others to do things for them and don't get involved in the matters directly, compared to the magisters who go out and do the things themself in person.

 

That would be reading too much into things. If the game intended us to see them just as mustache twirlers then we wouldn't be able to judge them.

 

Also 6/9 companions are male.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Does that change anything?

But you're right, I shouldn't have assumed.

 

I wasn't the one who specifically mentioned the gender of the OP in my argument, so I should be asking you that.

 

And your argument is silly. The approach is ridiculous.

 

Why would a thread asking for rights for white people be more likely to get people banned than a thread asking for rights for black people? Because black people are historically oppressed.

[stonerbishop]

We need more/less/same diversity/equality in game/book/movie/imagination/real world/space.

why is/isn't my male/female/trans/agendered/alien/Dracolisk able to be divine/king/emperor/queen/president/chieftan/god/maker?

I am pleased/upset/indifferent about this serious/unimportant/irrelevant/realistic/fantasy issue/nonissue.

I propose more krogans in power

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

We need more/less/same diversity/equality in game/book/movie/imagination/real world/space.

why is/isn't my male/female/trans/agendered/alien/Dracolisk able to be divine/king/emperor/queen/president/chieftan/god/maker?

I am pleased/upset/indifferent about this serious/unimportant/irrelevant/realistic/fantasy issue/nonissue.

I propose more krogans in power

How dare you us Golems need to be represented to. there were none inthis game.

Bioware is biased towards biologicaly based lifeforms.

THIS IS SILICONISM.

[Seraphim24]

If BW spent 1/3 of the time they seem to spend obsessing over things like this on making a good game or the game they honestly wanted to make, they would probably end up offending a lot less people, that's my feeling.

[Maverick827]

I wasn't the one who specifically mentioned the gender of the OP in my argument, so I should be asking you that.
 
And your argument is silly. The approach is ridiculous.
 
Why would a thread asking for rights for white people be more likely to get people banned than a thread asking for rights for black people? Because black people are historically oppressed.

Which in no way means this hypothetical thread should be treated with any less respect if it is worded equally well.

[SnakeCode]

As long as people who remark about the bad way women are portrayed are still being vilified by men, there is.

 

And in light of just how badly we men have treated women are the past 20 millenia or so, I think we deserve a little injustice.

Yes because as we all know punishing people for things people who aren't even alive anymore did is the way to go. Should all white people be 'punished' for slavery too?

[Ieldra]

If BW spent 1/3 of the time they seem to spend obsessing over things like this on making a good game or the game they honestly wanted to make, they would probably end up offending a lot less people, that's my feeling.

"Some people try very hard to be offended"

[Draining Dragon]

Oh, it's one of these threads again.

I should go.

[Farangbaa]

Yes because as we all know punishing people for things people who aren't even alive anymore did is the way to go. Should all white people be 'punished' for slavery too?

 

Nope. But a good start would be for white people to admit that the inequality is still there. That it's still much harder for a black person to be succesful than it was a white person. That they are still reaping the benefits of slavery and black people still suffer the consequences of it.

 

But we don't do that.  We act like racism doesn't exist anymore. We act like the black people are causing us problems by mentioning these problems. We act as if the fact they bring up these issues is the problem, not the issues themselves. We act like we are giving up something by giving them what they deserve. Like it's somekind of marvelous gesture that we're even trying to treat them equally, as if treating them unequally is how it should be, and we are really, really hurting ourselves by treating them equally.

 

It's pathetic.

 

You can change black in there to women and homosexuals, same applies.

[Dreamer]

Alexius appears to be a Venatori leader before you displace him, Samson and Lucius are leaders before their bad decision catch up to them, the Warden-Commander you find with Hawke is male, Iron Bull is a mercenary captain. 

 

Besides, after 20+ years of dude heavy games... I think the ladies get one which is weighed towards us. 

 

If it's wrong for a game to be "weighed" towards the male gender, then it should also be wrong to you when it's weighed toward females--regardless of any historical shortage. To espouse anything less would be hypocritical misandry. This perfectly encapsulates the double-standard that makes progress so difficult; if you cannot achieve equality without bringing down anyone else, you're doing it wrong.

 

It's also curious that you list off a handful of male leaders and then, when you realize how few they number by comparison to female leaders, you resort to the "well we're due one anyway" mentality.

 

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

you know what else still exists double standards.

[Maniccc]

As long as people who remark about the bad way women are portrayed are still being vilified by men, there is.

 

And in light of just how badly we men have treated women are the past 20 millenia or so, I think we deserve a little injustice.

This is just amazingly wrong.  The point is to learn from mistakes and not repeat them, not to perform the same mistakes over and over again on a different group of people.  I just don't understand this sort of nonsense.  Besides, "we" did not treat women badly for thousand of years.  I'm 45, not 1045 years old.  So sorry to disabuse of the idea that I did some bad things to women, that I did not let them vote, or own property, or get an education, etc.

 

Now, for the people obsessed with realism arguments (there are dragons in Thedas, therefore different gender roles do not exist!):  sorry, but gender roles exist because of biology and necessity.  It is only later as we improved technology and tools that gender roles are redefined.  Since I don't see cranes, and other gas powered tools and equipment that erase the need for physically stronger bodies of men, nor do I see day cares and baby sitter services taking care of kids so women can keep the species going whilst having a career, these roles will have to exist in Thedas out of necessity.  All of this is so painfully obvious, that having to point it out to someone is automatically an insult to their intelligence.

 

Let's face it, Gaider and whomever else, is using DA as a neo-feminist and LGBT platform.  Now, some people incapable of rational thought might think this means I have a problem with women or LGBT people.  I don't.  My wife makes more money than I do, she is an ambitious and career minded woman.  I like those kinds of women: independant, self-defining, and so on.  I find those traits attractive.  And I don't care if you are gay or straight or some other variation.  But that is all irrelevant, because DA is a medieval setting game about demons and such.  It is not some allegory or modern day tale about gender roles and alternate lifestyles.  The setting informs us about how the society will work, how the culture will look, and so on.  We can pretend "BUT MAGIC" all day long, but kids are still born, still need mother's milk, and so on.  And since despite magic, we see zero indication that said magic is used to compensate for certain biological realities, it is nonsense to think that magic makes the setting irrelevant when it comes to these questions.

 

Star Trek works for this sort of social discussion, but fantasy settings do not, unless the magic is so prevalent and involved in daily life, that it compensates for lower tech and social arrangements born, in large part, out of necessity.  Now feel free to post your red herrings and ad hominem responses, thank you.

[Dreamer]

Nope. But a good start would be for white people to admit that the inequality is still there. That it's still much harder for a black person to be succesful than it was a white person. That they are still reaping the benefits of slavery and black people still suffer the consequences of it.

 

But we don't do that.  We act like racism doesn't exist anymore. We act like the black people are causing us problems by mentioning these problems. We act as if the fact they bring up these issues is the problem, not the issues themselves. We act like we are giving up something by giving them what they deserve. Like it's somekind of marvelous gesture that we're even trying to treat them equally, as if treating them unequally is how it should be, and we are really, really hurting ourselves by treating them equally.

 

It's pathetic.

 

You can change black in there to women and homosexuals, same applies.

 

As a Hispanic male homosexual I can say that I don't feel like I'm owed anything at all.

 

Should you pay for or be expected to right some past wrong done to people like me ten years ago? Twenty? A hundred? When does it stop and where does the line get drawn? Should Italians pay for the wrongs of the Romans? Why not?

 

White people today have no responsibility for anyone but themselves--the same as anyone else. I will not apologize for my white ancestors. I am not them. I live my life well and do my part to end cycles of prejudice and discrimination (we Hispanics and gay men do it too!). If I don't uphold that conduct, then I have something to apologize for and make right. Until then, I am owed nothing and owe no one anything.

[papercut_ninja]

 

Now, for the people obsessed with realism arguments (there are dragons in Thedas, therefore different gender roles do not exist!):  sorry, but gender roles exist because of biology and necessity.  It is only later as we improved technology and tools that gender roles are redefined.  Since I don't see cranes, and other gas powered tools and equipment that erase the need for physically stronger bodies of men, nor do I see day cares and baby sitter services taking care of kids so women can keep the species going whilst having a career, these roles will have to exist in Thedas out of necessity.  All of this is so painfully obvious, that having to point it out to someone is automatically an insult to their intelligence.

 

If you have ever tried making a character in DA you would note that males and females in Thedas are exactly equal in terms of biology: same strength, same cunning, same dexterity etc...so why would their roles differ because of biological differences that exist in our realm but not there?