61 réponses à ce sujet

[Lebanese Dude]

I find it absurd that daggers are the highest DPS weapons. But the same was true in DA2, and daggers also outdamaged swords in DAO.

If daggers are such high damage weapons, why don't warriors use them?

 

Rogues and Warriors are both physical fighters. The difference between them is their approach to combat. A Warrior who uses daggers is a Rogue. 

 

Daggers are meant for stabbing and that is best achieved from the flank. You need a "Warrior" to hold the enemy in place while the other "Warrior" stabs him from the back.

Those different approaches to combat give you the class system. DA's system is relatively simple with only two major groups (for physical damage), each with its own combat styles and specializations for further classification.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The classes are too rigid, then. DAO handled it better. A classless system (or one with many different hybrid classes, like Wizardry) would be better still.

[tmp7704]

I really don't like having class restricted gear. The only justification for it is gamist.

I'm not fan of it myself (DAO's relatively freedom in that regard was nice) but I suppose it's easier than coding some sort of advanced systems along the lines of "warrior in heavy armour will swing daggers at **** speed but faster in leathers" and then dealing both with people confused about it, and complaining that means there's no differences between warriors and rogues and they don't want warriors be as good at stabbing as rogues etc. While I don't see much point in classes, there's no denying quite a few people do and that's what they want in their games.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'm not fan of it myself (DAO's relatively freedom in that regard was nice) but I suppose it's easier than coding some sort of advanced systems along the lines of "warrior in heavy armour will swing daggers at **** speed but faster in leathers" and then dealing both with people confused about it, and complaining that means there's no differences between warriors and rogues and they don't want warriors be as good at stabbing as rogues etc.

If they'd document their game at all, half of that problem would go away.

Just put a weapon-speed modifier on armour. Let some talents override it (like Master Archery in DAO).

The larger problem here appears to be designing around the assumption that the player will make ZERO effort to learn the rules.

[Sylvius the Mad]

For the record, I love RNG loot.

[tmp7704]

The larger problem here appears to be designing around the assumption that the player will make ZERO effort to learn the rules.

This in my eyes is not a problem, it's accepting the reality of it. The game is expected to be played by millions, and large part of these millions is expected, for good reasons, to make exactly zero effort learning.

[robertthebard]

Welcome to the wonderful world of RNG loot, the bane of MMO players the world over.

Wow, really? So all those table top games people were playing in the 1970s were what, hallucinations of a drug addled mind?

[Sylvius the Mad]

This in my eyes is not a problem, it's accepting the reality of it. The game is expected to be played by millions, and large part of these millions is expected, for good reasons, to make exactly zero effort learning.

How can we design complex rules that are fun and rewarding to learn, without making that learning necessary?

I find DAI's rulea quite difficult to learn (not as difficult as DA2's) because they haven't documentated anything, and because it doesn't make a lot of sense from a world-building perspective. Arbitrary distinctions like Warrior/Rogue need to be documented in order to be learnable.

[tmp7704]

How can we design complex rules that are fun and rewarding to learn, without making that learning necessary?

It becomes largely a process of tricking people into learning without presenting them with some sort of a wall of text because that won't get read even on cold day in hell.

Hence tutorials stretched over most of the game (and their side-effect brethren, "unlocks"), the bite-sized gameplay hints on the loading screens and the other stuff that people who actually don't mind reading tend to wind up resenting.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It becomes largely a process of tricking people into learning without presenting them with some sort of a wall of text because that won't get read even on cold day in hell.

Hence tutorials stretched over most of the game (and their side-effect brethren, "unlocks"), the bite-sized gameplay hints on the loading screens and the other stuff that people who actually don't mind reading tend to wind up resenting.

The wall of text needs to be available somewhere, though. We should be able to learn basically everything about the mechanics before we even create a character.

[Lebanese Dude]

The classes are too rigid, then. DAO handled it better. A classless system (or one with many different hybrid classes, like Wizardry) would be better still.

 

That's impossible given current lore which states that not everyone has magical ability.

 

So that means you need two broad classes: mage and non-mage.

 

[tmp7704]

That's impossible given current lore which states that not everyone has magical ability.
 
So that means you need two broad classes: mage and non-mage.

I guess you could also have single 'class' but taking magical abilities/talents would require the character to have some sort of 'can do magic' passive. After all being a mage doesn't prevent a person from learning how to swing a sword (hi, Gandalf) even though games routinely try to separate these two.

[Sylvius the Mad]

That's impossible given current lore which states that not everyone has magical ability.

So that means you need two broad classes: mage and non-mage.

You could do that within a classless system by making magical ability am expensive skill you can only select at level 1.

[RazorrX]

loot in the game is just vendor trash.  There is no epic weapon drop that is better than what you can craft.  My Rogue PURPOSELY used an inferior dagger just because it looked cooler than the crafted ones that did WAY more damage.  An example: by level 7ish I had crafted daggers that did 212 dps and the BEST epic dagger I found did 203 (Bleeder of Souls) at the time.  So what SHOULD have been an awesome find ended up being Meh.  It is that way with all weapons in the game.  You can craft better (but they look bland).

 

Which is why I am for a Reverse Engineering option for crafting, so I can craft better gear based on the cool stuff I find.  That way it has a use at least, besides vendor trash.

[tmp7704]

loot in the game is just vendor trash.  There is no epic weapon drop that is better than what you can craft.  My Rogue PURPOSELY used an inferior dagger just because it looked cooler than the crafted ones that did WAY more damage.  An example: by level 7ish I had crafted daggers that did 212 dps and the BEST epic dagger I found did 203 (Bleeder of Souls) at the time.  So what SHOULD have been an awesome find ended up being Meh.  It is that way with all weapons in the game.  You can craft better (but they look bland).

Wouldn't you be just as upset if you spent all the best materials on the best recipe you had available at that time, and as result got something considerably inferior or at least no better than a looted item? Wouldn't it cause you to arrive to similar (though opposite) conclusion that crafting is trash in the game and not worth bothering with?

[Baiyne]

update: 5th dragon dead, 5th epic dagger! WTF!? now I am just getting pissed. Still have not found any tier 3 2h schems either!

[Jestina]

I think it must drop loot for whatever you are not playing cause my rogue has gotten a cartload of 2H weapons but very few daggers. Crafting isn't really the answer, early game. You're pretty much gimped unless you get lucky.

And these "daggers" are not little stickers. Most of them look to be about the size of a Roman gladius so they would be quite potent on the battlefield.

[Baiyne]

I am starting to be convinced it is a bait and switch by these dink designers to make you want to play through other classes. There are enough bugs and glitches and frankly bad coding in the gae at least they could give you the gear drops for your main. I undestand it also helps to gear upthe party, but never had cole in grp for 1 darn mission because I am a 2h warr with tank, 3 melee dps is silly. And it is not like I can trade these items and such, at least hve the RNG (retarded nuber generator) be set to drop main gear more often than not.

[metalfenix]

The RNG on this game is absolute crap, I loathe it. And crafted equipment is not better, it may have better stats, but the best materials give you a ridiculous look on the armor.

[SetecAstronomy]

Rogues and Warriors are both physical fighters. The difference between them is their approach to combat. A Warrior who uses daggers is a Rogue. 

 

Daggers are meant for stabbing and that is best achieved from the flank. You need a "Warrior" to hold the enemy in place while the other "Warrior" stabs him from the back.

Those different approaches to combat give you the class system. DA's system is relatively simple with only two major groups (for physical damage), each with its own combat styles and specializations for further classification.

 

While I respect that approach, I gotta say my tanking rogue is pretty in yo face. She has daggers that give guard with each hit (thank you, fade-touched obsidian) and the upgraded Tempest ice flask that pulls agro.  She then hits a speed flask and goes spinning blades on a cluster, weakening them for Bull to mop up.  She then hops around doing 1 on 1 with any stragglers. Not a point in stealth.

[Unlucky 13]

Through my first playthrough (90 hours), and second (25 so far), I'm absolutely seeing daggers drop as loot the most often both times.  Then, I would say 2-H weapons, and then mage staffs.  Way after that are 1-H weapons, and way, way down at the bottom are bows.  Since I'm playing as an archer this time, I was hoping that wouldn't continue to be the case, but it really is.  Been using the same bow the last five levels or so.

 

I used the perk to get better Rogue gear, but the best bow in that spec list is the same as the one I'm using.  In my first playthrough, I think that the best bow spec/loot I ever found (then just for Sera to use) was much, much weaker than the weapons everyone else was using.  I'm really taking my time this one though, plus using my knowledge from the first time through, and hoping that my archer can come up with something better.

[Lebanese Dude]

 

While I respect that approach, I gotta say my tanking rogue is pretty in yo face. She has daggers that give guard with each hit (thank you, fade-touched obsidian) and the upgraded Tempest ice flask that pulls agro.  She then hits a speed flask and goes spinning blades on a cluster, weakening them for Bull to mop up.  She then hops around doing 1 on 1 with any stragglers. Not a point in stealth.

O yes there are certainly many ways to play each class. Tempest and Knight-Enchanter are the bruiser (warrior-like) type sub-class for the rogue and mage respectively. However, you're still using guile as a Tempest and magic as a Knight-Enchanter as well as appropriate gear to elevate your front-line combat prowess to the level of warriors who innately specialize in front-line fighting. Stealth is only one potential approach to the rogue's arsenal of cunning and guile. Similarly, you can technically play a warrior as a soft squishy glass cannon with zero defensive abilities to match the damage output of rogues and mages, etc..

 

 

You could do that within a classless system by making magical ability am expensive skill you can only select at level 1.

 

True, but what about the magic-oriented abilities and specializations? Considering that mages can theoretically train and fight as warriors rather than cast spells, it's simple enough to point out that this is an artifact of the gameplay system which presupposes that your mages will always be casters (with some fighting) and your fighters will use weapons (with some "magic" like Alchemy and Templar a\bilities). This justifies a division in the classes. There's no real justification for separating warriors and rogues other than further classification for overall distinct fighting approaches.

 

 

Edit:

 

I guess you could also have single 'class' but taking magical abilities/talents would require the character to have some sort of 'can do magic' passive. After all being a mage doesn't prevent a person from learning how to swing a sword (hi, Gandalf) even though games routinely try to separate these two.

 

I totally missed this post

 

Given that Dragon Age is an RPG that has a major focus on interaction between mages and non-mages, it's only appropriate to distinguish the two. There are questions that need to be asked such as:

 

1) What is your character's origin?

 

A dalish mage doesn't learn the Vir Tanadhal. They're either trained as an apprentice or "banished" from the clan. Where would they learn combat? As a mercenary perhaps. How will they hide their magical ability? Etc..

A human mage is very, very likely to be sent to a Circle unless their parent is an apostate as well (Hawke). Does the Circle allow physical combat training? That's what the Knight-Enchanter specialization is for. A Circle-taught mage obviously is not as versatile a fighter as a warrior or rogue who has spent their entire life honing their skills (supposedly). How would a mage who spends a significant amount of time learning their magical craft also learn to fight with the same aptitude as a warrior?

 

2) How is your character influenced by current events?

 

People treat you differently as a mage. It's as significant to the DA universe as your race.The mage-templar war is more personal to you. There are expectations or misconceptions about you that should be addressed. 

 

Etc...

 

 

I'm not opposed to having a class-less system, but it seems it would favor spell-casters exclusively and would not make much logical sense given the setting. They've already done away with armor restrictions at higher levels. That's a good first step.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'm not opposed to having a class-less system, but it seems it would favor spell-casters exclusively and would not make much logical sense given the setting. They've already done away with armor restrictions at higher levels. That's a good first step.

It shouldn't have been necessary. Armour and weapons were already not class-restricted in DAO. Making all weapons class restricted didn't appear until DA2, and armour wasn't fully class-restricted until DAI. These are new additions to the series, and they are bad.

Now, having stat-limited gear (as in DAO) wouldn't work in DAI either, because we don’t have control of our stats, but I don't expect we would have lost control of our stats if the gear hadn't been class-restricted.

On the classes themselves, I can see why we might want to make mages their own class (but I still don't want to limit their equipment or learnable skills), but there's simply no reason for warrior and rogue to be distinct.

[tmp7704]

Given that Dragon Age is an RPG that has a major focus on interaction between mages and non-mages, it's only appropriate to distinguish the two.

But you can distinguish between them without drawing a "and the two shall never meet" divide. The distinction comes mainly as reactions to the fact that person can do magic and the dangers this brings (and so by extension, the dangers it poses to everyone around) What else the character is capable of is at best a secondary concern.

I've mentioned Gandalf in my previous post for a reason -- is his identity of a mage any lesser because in addition to magical powers he also cuts down orcs with a legendary sword? And oddly enough you also don't see people in the books give him a stinky eye for that and questioning just when and how he's able to learn swordplay. It's almost like people can do more than one thing in their lives and divide their time between various activities.

If the most 'iconic' fantasy works can get away with it I don't see why DA couldn't either.

[Baiyne]

and now, back on subject with update #2 in this ridiculously done game: Dragon 7 dead and...wait for it... yes another damn dagger. It was almost comical at 5 and 6, but my promise to Bioware is this. If you pricks drop me 10 epic daggers, daggers being the only gear neither me nor my party uses, I promise to delete this **** of a game and never buy another bioware product again.

 

This is beyond insane that their RNG is that broke that 10 dragons exist and I have killed 7 and RNG has given me 7 epic daggers.