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[The Mad King]

I saw this and wondered why we couldn't keep Alistair AND Loghain in the party, it was either Alistair or Loghain. IMO there should have been an option for master cunning to persuade Alistair to have him join without him leaving, such as:

 

Alistair: I will not have him as a brother I won't!

 

Warden: (Persuade) We need all the help we can get Alistair, don't be selfish

 

Alistair: That man killed our brethren and blamed us for the deed!

 

Warden: (Persuade) He can help by taking the final blow, think about it! 

 

and thus have Loghain kill himself for the good of Ferelden and both of the Warden and Alistair would have survived without the need of that dark ritual. 

 

 

[Althix]

well. Position of the Alistair is... understandable i guess. he knew Duncan more than Warden did (father figure with following complex). However emotions cloud his judgement, and he fails to see logic and benefits by having Loghain in the party. You can't expect much from such infant and babyface as Alistair.

 

From the perspective of my human noble Warden, Duncan is a piece of shiet no matter how you look at his actions.

[theskymoves]

You can't persuade him because, like most reasonable people, Alistair has a line he won't cross and strong feelings about it.

[The Mad King]

Sure. he is reasonable, but he forgot that the Wardens are consisted of blood mages, murderers, traitors and whatnot. It's a huge naive look on his order. 

[theskymoves]

Sure. he is reasonable, but he forgot that the Wardens are consisted of blood mages, murderers, traitors and whatnot. It's a huge naive look on his order. 

 

Alistair's idealism (and considerable blindspot) regarding the  Grey Wardens is central to his character... if you don't understand that defining element, then you don't understand him at all.

[mousestalker]

Alistair's idealism (and considerable blindspot) regarding the  Grey Wardens is central to his character... if you don't understand that defining element, then you don't understand him at all.

And it isn't as though he doesn't give you plenty of evidence about his feelings.

[DracoAngel]

Also, keep in mind neither the Warden nor Alistair knew that a Warden has to sacrifice themselves at the end. They didn't learn that until the Landsmeet was over and they were back at Redcliffe. I honestly like to think that had Alistair known that he would have been more willing to let Loghain join, if for no other reason to be the one to die. Especially if he was good friends or in a relationship with the Warden.

[Merle McClure II]

Even had Alistair known about the Death Blow I don't think it would have changed his mind. He sees being a Warden as a honor and Duncan as a father figure ... he views making the Ultimate Sacrifice as his first and last act as King as a mark of greatness. --- From his perspective Loghain is the man who murdered or tried to murder his entire family, spent the last year trying to kill him personally and would allow the entire world to burn instead of admitting he was wrong until forced. (Not exactly the total truth, but that is how he clearly sees things.)

[Yulia]

I don't think it's selfish, Wardens are an honorable group and with what Loghain did Allistar wouldn't want Loghain taking the killing the blow and sacrifice vs the Archdemon. Loghain would prolly still be hated by people but to some he would have redeemed himself and Allistar doesn't think he's worthy of it. That's my view on it, and the way I play DA I try to pretend what decisions I would make if I were actually there and i'd agree with Allistar on this one, I wouldn;t want a man who killed my friends and abandoned my king to be added in an honorable warden rank after all the bad he did and he won't even admit he was wrong, sure he prolly thought he was doing what he thought was best for his country, but when the crimes were put against him he denies them. Loghain does many, many things that were unethical in DA:O and the people have a reason to not let him join. And to the one who says Wardens are made up of thieves and criminals, yes and no. Not all of them are criminals, there are those who join for the glory, those who join because they were infected by the taint and had nowhere else to go, and then others joined just for the good cause of helping people.  

[Klidi]

Because he's a human?

 

Every character in the game has his/her flaws. They don't always behave in the most logical, reasonable, honourable way. They do stupid things, they do evil things, they do mistakes. That's what I love about this game - the real feel of the characters. I'll never understand this need I see in so many threads here, to justify their actions and to prove that it was in fact incredibly clever or honourable. Geez. Just accept them the way they are.

 

Or don't. Another thing I love about DAO - you can get rid/kill every one of them. >

[Icy Magebane]

Also, keep in mind neither the Warden nor Alistair knew that a Warden has to sacrifice themselves at the end. They didn't learn that until the Landsmeet was over and they were back at Redcliffe. I honestly like to think that had Alistair known that he would have been more willing to let Loghain join, if for no other reason to be the one to die. Especially if he was good friends or in a relationship with the Warden.

I agree to an extent, but IMO it comes down to immaturity and stubbornness on the part of Alistair.  Even though he couldn't elaborate in front of everyone at the Landsmeet, Riordan said that there were "compelling reasons" why they needed as many Wardens on hand as possible.  Rather than accept the word of a senior Warden, Alistair ignores this and throws a tantrum instead.  I can understand why he did it, but it really does highlight some of the flaws in Alistair's character.  He should have taken Riordan at his word or at least given him the opportunity to explain himself later and then decide, but instead he decides that his personal feelings are more important than ending the Blight... that's inexcusable considering the number of lives at risk if the Archdemon was allowed to roam free.

 

Not that I'm complaining, of course... I think that this critical flaw in Alistair is what makes him one of the best characters in the series.  Not all heroes are capable of overcoming their faults, after all...

 

I'll also add that it's clear from the start that Alistair doesn't actually agree with the idea that Grey Wardens should do whatever they must to achieve their goals... he disagrees with pretty much every morally ambiguous choice in the game and only approves of the most altruistic of actions.  Although he rarely openly challenges the Warden's unscrupulous decisions, it's clear that he sees the Order very differently from how they actually are.  It makes sense though, since he had only been a Warden for a short time before Ostagaar, and so he never got a chance to learn the truth about his comrades-in-arms... how they became Wardens, what their lives were like before the Joining, what kind of things the leaders of the group were involved in between Blights, etc...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You should also bear in mind that while Alistair's motives for wanting Loghain dead are clearly selfish, it is not yet clear at this point that Loghain can be trusted to live in the same camp the other two Wardens sleep in. And since that's the only other option anyone floats, and lorewise the Fereldens don't do the whole "long stretch without parole" thing...

 

Well, if you metagame you realize that Loghain can be trusted. RP-wise, that's a big risk, and Alistair can't metagame.

[Icy Magebane]

You should also bear in mind that while Alistair's motives for wanting Loghain dead are clearly selfish, it is not yet clear at this point that Loghain can be trusted to live in the same camp the other two Wardens sleep in. And since that's the only other option anyone floats, and lorewise the Fereldens don't do the whole "long stretch without parole" thing...

 

Well, if you metagame you realize that Loghain can be trusted. RP-wise, that's a big risk, and Alistair can't metagame.

I'm not even sure if it would require metagaming to come to that conclusion... Loghain was humbled before the nobility and even before the duel he was likely disgraced by the collected evidence of his crimes.  What would have been his motivation to attack the Wardens and their comrades later?  There wouldn't have been anything to gain from that... Arl Eamon's soldiers and the other troops the Warden had gathered certainly wouldn't follow him into battle... the nobility wouldn't accept him as their leader again either...

[Althix]

it's not a question of trust. Loghain, after the Landsmeet, is done. He became an expendable resource, a tool. And as a tool he must be used, not wasted.

 

Which Alistair can't understand, so he behave like offended and spoiled child. And he is a child after all.

 

p.s. And what is best in this whole situation - Alistair thinks that he is in position of strength, which allows him to judge Loghain's fate. But he is not - and that is exquisite.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'm not even sure if it would require metagaming to come to that conclusion... Loghain was humbled before the nobility and even before the duel he was likely disgraced by the collected evidence of his crimes.  What would have been his motivation to attack the Wardens and their comrades later?  There wouldn't have been anything to gain from that... Arl Eamon's soldiers and the other troops the Warden had gathered certainly wouldn't follow him into battle... the nobility wouldn't accept him as their leader again either...

You're assuming he's acting rationally and not blindly angry and vengeful about all of this. For all that that turns out to be true, I don't see that everyone can be sure at the time that it will turn out to be true.

[Merle McClure II]

We are talking about a man who even under the "nicest" version of viewing his character was willing to poison a rival simply to stack the deck in his favor because he believed things were going to come to a head between him and Calian in the future. Not to mention the simple fact that he clearly does hold grudges. --- People who believe that Loghain is anywhere even close to being trustworthy or a reliable tool without meta-gaming aren't being reasonable. 

[Icy Magebane]

You're assuming he's acting rationally and not blindly angry and vengeful about all of this. For all that that turns out to be true, I don't see that everyone can be sure at the time that it will turn out to be true.

I don't know... Loghain seemed very calm and resigned to his fate after being beaten in the duel.  I remember him saying that he initially assumed that the Warden was like Cailin, a child playing at being king (or a hero/soldier in the Warden's case, I guess), but after the events of the Landsmeet he realized that the Warden was the real deal.  Now, this could have been an act, and I might just be naive in trusting a defeated enemy, but I just don't get that vibe from Loghain.  He seems like he just wants to keep the Orlesians out of Ferelden and that's all.  He doesn't care care how that gets done or who does it so long as the Orlesian army doesn't enter his nation.  So with that in mind, I have no reason to suspect him of a betrayal later on... but maybe playing the game so many times has clouded my judgement.  That's entirely possible.  I mean, there's no way to avoid the meta-knowledge that Loghain is on the level...

 

edit:  I will say that if Riordan was willing to work alongside a man who ordered him to be tortured, then there was at least enough reason to listen to his request to have him join the Wardens.  At the very least, Alistair should have taken that into account.

[Merle McClure II]

If I remember correctly though neither the Warden or Alistair really knew anything about Riodan other then the fact he was a fellow Warden and got captured by drinking a drugged ale. -- Why should his judgement be blindly trusted? (Note, I do think the Warden should be able to call a Warden huddle and find out more before making up their mind but then again ordering Loghain's execution was something that was probably done sooner rather then later and taking a "time out" might not have flown.)  

[Althix]

Because Riordan is a senior GW and a killer. And he had more knowledge than Warden and Alistair combined.

[Bethgael]

For the same reason a Cousland wouldn't fight side-by-side with Arl Howe.

Or a City elf with Vaughan Kendells.

It's not that hard to understand.

Also--they didn't have full information. Maybe if Riordan had thought to give them a certain piece of Very Important information when he was at Eamon's house before the Landsmeet, Alistair (and the PC) would understand better.

Also, Alistair was 20-21 years old at the time. His frontal lobe hadn't even engaged yet.

 

[Merle McClure II]

Neither of which are reasons to blindly trust his judgment though ... Duncan knew more than Alistair and the Warden combined as well but he also had lapses in judgment from time to time as well. 

[Althix]

 

Neither of which are reasons to blindly trust his judgment though

there is a reason to at least listen and consider. because Loghain won't go anywhere, and could be executed at anytime.

[Althix]

Also--they didn't have full information. Maybe if Riordan had thought to give them a certain piece of Very Important information when he was at Eamon's house before the Landsmeet, Alistair (and the PC) would understand better.

There were no reason for Riordan to share this informaton before hand. Especially when something big like Landsmeet was about to happen.

[Merle McClure II]

Umm ... you don't think briefing the only other Wardens in the nation about the Death Blow being necessary to end the Blight wasn't worth taking five minutes to explain it to them is something that should have been done?

[mousestalker]

I like to think Riordan was Blight addled at that point. Duncan was hearing his Calling at Ostagar and he and Duncan Joined about the same time. It's the only explanation I can come up with as to why he was so consistently wrong.

I still like Riordan. His voice is wonderful.