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Why is Alistair so selfish?


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#26
Bethgael

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There were no reason for Riordan to share this informaton before hand. Especially when something big like Landsmeet was about to happen.

That may be the case, but it doesn't change the fact that--for whatever reason--they didn't have information that might have swayed Alistair on the matter.

His behaviour is perfectly logical, in context:

1. Duncan (father figure), Cailan (his king and also his brother--remember his need for a family? Loghain killed that possibility [and yes, it was a possibility--Cailain idolised Wardens--including, now, his own brother. Anora makes it clear when you speak to her that the only reason Cailan hadn't acknowledged Alistair is because Loghain wouldn't let him.]) and all of his brother Wardens, killed by Loghain's actions.

2. Eamon (his other father figure) poisoned, by Loghain's actons. Also, Loghain made a deal with a known blood mage, usurping Templar and Chantry law in the process (Ali may have hated the thought of being a Templar, but as Morrigan says, often, there's still enough Templar in him for him to be annoyed by that alone, let alone the "blood mage" thing). End result: Alistair's home town gutted by undead. Loghain made a deal with Uldred, another blood mage. End result: death and destruction at the Tower.

 

3. Loghain is selling elves to Tevinter. He's engaging in slavery in Ferelden and admits it if pressed.

 

4. If the Warden is a Cousland (and perhaps Ali's romance), even more reason. Howe was rewarded with the Highever Teyrnir and the Arling of Denerim as a reward for his behaviour in Highever. (Even if the warden is not a Cousland, the events at Highever still happen. Howe's forces--and the teyrn of Highever--are absent from Ostagar, and Highever's forces had been wasted on a scouting mission to get Fergus out of the way (perhaps, a hint that Loghain knew of Howe's plans). What if those forces would have tipped the balance at Ostagar?

5. To Alistair, being a Warden is the highest honour he can possibly think of. Now, Riordan, as a SW, would be more pragmatic, as we know the lustre fades as time goes on. Ali's still young enough in the Order to be idealistic about it.

The real question is not why doesn't he agree, but why the hells would he?


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#27
Althix

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The real question is not why doesn't he agree, but why the hells would he?

He would not, becaus he is a child. This is why you don't allow him to make any decisions. You don't need to have meta knowledge for that, you just have to see Alistair for what he is.
 
i will expand on the subject:
 
1) personal agenda.
2) same, when Loghain's aim was to remove Eamon for a time. Keep in mind, that Eamon is a noble.
3) guilty.
4) if not for Riordan and his knowledge, battle for Denerim would be a catastrophe. Battle for Ostagar was a disaster from a day one as well. I wonder why Duncan for all his wisdom actually allowed this battle to happen. (because you can't end the Blight without killing Archy.)
5) yes he is a child.

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#28
Arisugawa

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Because Riordan is a senior GW and a killer. And he had more knowledge than Warden and Alistair combined.

 

If this is the case, the bigger question is why did Riordan, as Senior Warden, not simply invoke the Rite of Conscription and take the Warden and Alistair's potential objections out of the picture.

 

If Riordan wants Loghain in the Wardens, he is completely within his right to do this once the Landsmeet has stripped Loghain of his title. There is no need, at all, to ask the Warden to make this decision or to let that decision stand if he feels the Warden chose incorrectly.

 

Riordan making the decision changes everything. Alistair would likely not have left the Warden's party. Loghain would not have joined it, at least not until the Battle of Denerim.

 

The only reason he doesn't is drama. It would take Loghain's potential death away from the player, something that a lot of players probably would have torched the forums over.

 

In my opinion, this is a flaw for Origins. It took me out of the moment and made me question why Riordan was giving this decision to me rather than just conscripting Loghain outright.

 

Alistair isn't selfish in this moment so much as he is furious at you for taking Riordan's side. After all, you were at Ostagar and you have suffered the fallout of Loghain's anti-Warden propaganda since Ostagar. If anyone else should be as mad at Loghain as Alistair, it's you, particularly if you are a Human Noble and you have seen that Loghain allowed Howe to take Highever in exchange for his support.


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#29
Bethgael

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I'm a pragmatic, grown adult with sons older than Alistair was at the time, and without the full information I wouldn't agree, in the listed circumstances. It'd be politically and logically stupid--unless I just didn't care about all of the death and destruction Loghain had brought on my nation--and to me, personally (Imagine: "sure, Riordan, the man killed all my friends and a man I loved as a father--the only person in my entire life who has given two shytes about me--then blamed me for the death of my brother while trying to kill me, too. I'd be happy to serve with him on your say-so. Because you and me, Riordan, we've been through so much together, and that therefore wipes out all the harm this man has done"). Not to mention his attempts at usurping a throne he should have called a Landsmeet himself (or Anora should have) to decide.

 

Everything I listed is without the metaknowledge. That is what Alistair saw. Keeping Loghain because, Death Blow, that, honey, is meta-knowledge. Neither Alistair or The Warden knew that at the time and Riordan's hinting wouldn't matter, because,  whoTF is he anyway?

 

Everything Loghain has done, well-intentioned or not, caused chaos and destruction. Riordan was not in a position to see that. Alistair had just spent the last year wallowing in its consequences. He'd spent a year dodging the Warrant placed on his head by Loghain! (Remember Zevran? Yeah, the guy Loghain sent to kill you both? After Loghain tells everyone the Wardens killed Cailan? And the warden trap at the Pearl? etc etc etc?)

 

Execute him. That is all.

 

Not agreeing doesn't make Alistair selfish, or a child (even though, age-wise, he is still a very YA), not under the listed, known-to-him circumstances. Agreeing would make him a badly-written, illogical, internally inconsistent robot, though.


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#30
Althix

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as Senior Warden, not simply invoke the Rite of Conscription

yes pretty much this.


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#31
Bethgael

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Also, when Riordan said "there are compelling reasons..." the Warden (or Alistair) should have been able to ask what they are.

That we can't--dramaz, not logical writing.

Not Alistair's issue, though, that one.


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#32
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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there is a reason to at least listen and consider. because Loghain won't go anywhere, and could be executed at anytime.

There's reason to listen and consider, but he doesn't give much to listen to or consider.

 

 

Also, when Riordan said "there are compelling reasons..." the Warden (or Alistair) should have been able to ask what they are.

That we can't--dramaz, not logical writing.

Not Alistair's issue, though, that one.

Pretty much this.


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#33
Arisugawa

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Also, when Riordan said "there are compelling reasons..." the Warden (or Alistair) should have been able to ask what they are.

That we can't--dramaz, not logical writing.

Not Alistair's issue, though, that one.

 

This is slightly off-topic, but this coincides with one my biggest beefs with this whole scene.

 

Riordan explains very bluntly that the creation of a new Warden requires the blood of an Archdemon, and that the stores of Archdemon blood in Ferelden cannot be used either because Loghain's people has destroyed it or because Loghain's people have taken it from their headquarters. This is the reason given at Eamon's estate if you ask Riordan if we can make new Wardens to help with the Blight.

 

So...the Landsmeet happens, and in comes Riordan and proclaims that it is his intention to have Loghain join the Wardens.

 

My first reaction when I played this was....how the heck are we going to do that?

 

At this point in the game, with Riordan having not gone back to Orlais to resupply and Loghain (at that point) still in control of the Warden headquarters, there is no way for Riordan to know if Archdemon blood is available. And if he has somehow discovered that it is available, he makes no mention that circumstances have changed. It's thrown out there, after he told us it wasn't possible, at the worst possible moment for him to have brought it up.

 

He could have stopped us prior to entering the palace, prior to the potential confrontation with Ser Cauthrien, and explained what he wanted to happen. He didn't. He interrupted the Landsmeet, with no supporting evidence, to stop the potential execution of a disgraced general.

 

This is another point in the narrative where Origins fails me. If Riordan is going to conscript, have him conscript. If it's possible to now create new Wardens, please tell me why he knows it is possible. If he's going to spring this possibility on me, don't do it publicly where I now have to save face and/or humiliate one of my lieutenants.

 

Everything in Riordan section of the Landsmeet bothers me.


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#34
Hazegurl

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I don't think the Warden should be able to just persuade Alistair to let Loghain join. Alistair should be able to see past his own selfishness, if not, then as the leader you are left with a choice. Give in to Alistair's whining or let him go. Sadly, in my canon, his inability to let Duncan go causes him to join him, I like that about Alistair actually.  A character who doesn't change throughout the story is doomed (IMO) and I'm glad to have the chance to play that out.  I do agree that it's stupid for Riordan to spring the info on everyone at the landsmeet although it would have been even dumber for him to say what he needed to make GWs in a room full of nobles. The moment he mentioned the possibility of Loghain becoming a Warden, however vague it is.  Alistair should have just shut his mouth and deferred to his elder (Riordan) and leader (Warden).  But what really caused Alistair's death in my canon was his declaration of becoming King to everyone. tsk tsk. He just had to go after that.


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#35
Bethgael

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[snip because I agree with everything here]

 

Everything in Riordan section of the Landsmeet bothers me.

Also, then Anora says "The Joining is often fatal, isn't it?"

Wait. Wait, what? Who the hells told Anora about this Very Sekrit (so sekrit I wasn't told about it before I was actually set to do it) Warden Ritual? The one no one knows about? Like, no one?

And, hells, Riordan, what if Loghain does get killed by The Joining? All of this "show Warden's hand in front of a bunch of gossipy nobles" was hella pointless, then, innit?

Internal inconsistencies shyte me to tears.



#36
Merle McClure II

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Weren't Loghain/Howe trying to unlock the Order's Secrets? --- Although to be fair, the Warden was told that The Joining was dangerous, in tones that made it clear (to me at least) that death was a possibility.


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#37
AutumnWitch

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Oh I don't know anyone who painted me a traitor to a whole nation I don't think I would have anything to do with him either.  GMAB



#38
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Oh I don't know anyone who painted me a traitor to a whole nation I don't think I would have anything to do with him either.  GMAB

If there was some way to be absolutely sure he wouldn't turn on me, I think I'd put him to use. The problem is that being absolutely sure of anything is difficult, and given the specific use Loghain is put to here the stakes for getting it wrong might be a slit throat in the night. Sure, he'd die for it, but that would be cold comfort to me or whoever else owned such a throat. (Of course, this isn't necessarily true to the way I act in-game: when I kill Loghain in-game it's usually for other reasons. And I never kill Zevran or refuse to recruit Sten, with regards to whom this approach is equally justified.)


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#39
dragonflight288

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I saw this and wondered why we couldn't keep Alistair AND Loghain in the party, it was either Alistair or Loghain. IMO there should have been an option for master cunning to persuade Alistair to have him join without him leaving, such as:

 

Alistair: I will not have him as a brother I won't!

 

Warden: (Persuade) We need all the help we can get Alistair, don't be selfish

 

Alistair: That man killed our brethren and blamed us for the deed!

 

Warden: (Persuade) He can help by taking the final blow, think about it! 

 

and thus have Loghain kill himself for the good of Ferelden and both of the Warden and Alistair would have survived without the need of that dark ritual. 

 

Because neither Alistair or the Warden know about the final blow killing the archdemon at this time. They only find out after Riordan informs them right before the march to Denerim to face the horde. 



#40
dragonflight288

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Also, then Anora says "The Joining is often fatal, isn't it?"

Wait. Wait, what? Who the hells told Anora about this Very Sekrit (so sekrit I wasn't told about it before I was actually set to do it) Warden Ritual? The one no one knows about? Like, no one?

And, hells, Riordan, what if Loghain does get killed by The Joining? All of this "show Warden's hand in front of a bunch of gossipy nobles" was hella pointless, then, innit?

Internal inconsistencies shyte me to tears.

 

It's probably not hard to figure out considering recruits go in, only some come out. What is unknown is WHY they die, which is using darkspawn blood as a catalyst to take in the taint and become connected to the darkspawn. 

 

Essentially it's a form of blood magic. 

 

I think that's the bigger secret than the fatality part of it. 



#41
Aren

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well. Position of the Alistair is... understandable i guess. he knew Duncan more than Warden did (father figure with following complex). However emotions cloud his judgement, and he fails to see logic and benefits by having Loghain in the party. You can't expect much from such infant and babyface as Alistair.

 

From the perspective of my human noble Warden, Duncan is a piece of shiet no matter how you look at his actions.

nvm



#42
Aren

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Alistair's idealism (and considerable blindspot) regarding the  Grey Wardens is central to his character... if you don't understand that defining element, then you don't understand him at all.

you can harden him and he become king with Loghain in the party good resolution imho.   



#43
The Mad King

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Just to point out that I forgot that Riordan tells you bout the final blow after the landsmeet. My point still stands that Alistair would still be selfish and insist that he'd take the final blow than let Loghain join them and do it.


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#44
Arisugawa

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Just to point out that I forgot that Riordan tells you bout the final blow after the landsmeet. My point still stands that Alistair would still be selfish and insist that he'd take the final blow than let Loghain join them and do it.

 

How exactly is this selfish?

 

To Alistair, being a Grey Warden is an honor, and he'd rather take the blow himself than allow Loghain easy public redemption. I'm not sure how this is selfish so much as standing up for the reputation of the Wardens. If Alistair knew about the final blow prior to the Landsmeet, and still refused to allow Loghain to take the blow, this changes nothing about him. 

 

Alistair is not going to put aside his feelings on protecting the Warden's reputation, to prevent their flag from being stained, so to speak, by bringing Loghain into their ranks. That his feelings on the Warden's reputation may be misplaced given their history and who they recruit doesn't matter. The Wardens mean something dear to Alistair, and his life is small price to pay to defend that.



#45
Persephone

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A few things to consider:

 

  1. As a 20-21 year old kid who has dealt with neglect and abuse for his entire life, Alistair latched on to the Wardens tightly and even though he knew some of their extremely ruthless measures, he chose to blank them out. That's not selfish, even Sophia Dryden's story doesn't change his perspective.
  2. Given Duncan's past and Daveth's conscription (NVM Amell/Surana/Brosca/Aeducan being conscripted criminals) give the "honor" argument the lie, I wonder why that was never ever addressed at all. Inconsistent writing, that, not Alistair's fault.
  3. What IS selfish though is to leave EVERYONE at the mercy of the Archdemon, thus verly likely dooming all of Ferelden/Thedas, because you didn't get your revenge over something that wasn't even Loghain's fault per se. (But let's not start another Ostagar debate, pls) That isn't just selfish, it's Goddam hypocritical, given what Alistair wants vengeance for. What about Grey Warden duty & sacrifice?
  4. I understand where Alistair is coming from & what not. But even HE realizes how wrong he was by the time DAII rolls around if he's slumming around in Kirkwall.

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#46
Chashan

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A few things to consider:

 

  1. As a 20-21 year old kid who has dealt with neglect and abuse for his entire life, Alistair latched on to the Wardens tightly and even though he knew some of their extremely ruthless measures, he chose to blank them out. That's not selfish, even Sophia Dryden's story doesn't change his perspective.
  2. Given Duncan's past and Daveth's conscription (NVM Amell/Surana/Brosca/Aeducan being conscripted criminals) give the "honor" argument the lie, I wonder why that was never ever addressed at all. Inconsistent writing, that, not Alistair's fault.
  3. What IS selfish though is to leave EVERYONE at the mercy of the Archdemon, thus verly likely dooming all of Ferelden/Thedas, because you didn't get your revenge over something that wasn't even Loghain's fault per se. (But let's not start another Ostagar debate, pls) That isn't just selfish, it's Goddam hypocritical, given what Alistair wants vengeance for. What about Grey Warden duty & sacrifice?
  4. I understand where Alistair is coming from & what not. But even HE realizes how wrong he was by the time DAII rolls around if he's slumming around in Kirkwall.

 

 

Key point, that.

 

I'd also add that him pouting and all of a sudden wanting the throne following the recommendation of Riordan to conscript Loghain, this despite having at length dissuaded him before to leave it to Anora with his consent, no less, also puts me off from taking 'stair seriously any longer at all. Much less let him roam about posing a potential source of crisis to come for Ferelden with that attitude.

 

 

Just to point out that I forgot that Riordan tells you bout the final blow after the landsmeet. My point still stands that Alistair would still be selfish and insist that he'd take the final blow than let Loghain join them and do it.

 

That would actually have been an interesting dynamic right there. Sadly was not to be, despite the recordings that were apparently made with both of them present in the party for Return to Ostagar.



#47
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While I agree with most of what the posters before me said, I do believe that Alistair's reaction when thinking of recruiting Loghain might have been done better in that he might have been written so as to be able to be influenced in his decision based on the Warden's influence with him.

For me personally, the first time I tried to recruit Loghain my PC was romancing Alistair. What a blow it was for me to see that everything that had to do with his (understandable, but admittedly pretty borked) principles on the matter seemed suddenly so much more important than the months we had spent together and the relationship we had built up! Bluntly said, it felt like he was choosing Duncan over me, and that didn't sit well with me. :I 

I don't need the option to have both of them in my group. What I would have liked to see, though, is a bit of a more gratifying outcome for people with high influence with him....... an outcome that wasn't quite as hostile.



#48
Bethgael

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While I agree with most of what the posters before me said, I do believe that Alistair's reaction when thinking of recruiting Loghain might have been done better in that he might have been written so as to be able to be influenced in his decision based on the Warden's influence with him.

For me personally, the first time I tried to recruit Loghain my PC was romancing Alistair. What a blow it was for me to see that everything that had to do with his (understandable, but admittedly pretty borked) principles on the matter seemed suddenly so much more important than the months we had spent together and the relationship we had built up! Bluntly said, it felt like he was choosing Duncan over me, and that didn't sit well with me. :I 

I don't need the option to have both of them in my group. What I would have liked to see, though, is a bit of a more gratifying outcome for people with high influence with him....... an outcome that wasn't quite as hostile.

If you're romancing him, it's even more of a betrayal to him. Pure and simple. He has more reason, then, to be hurt and angry, not less. He could equally say, that you were choosing to let Loghain live over him. Or choosing to believe Riordan (who you barely know) over the months you spent with him. I could not even conceive of betraying someone I loved that way, given the context (sans metaknowledge).

Because, same circumstances. Why would the HoF agree to it, after having gone through the same things with him? After seeing what Loghain put him through? Especially if she is a mage or Cousland? After everything Loghain did to her?

Geez, if you see him at the Temple, the man thinks he should have died instead. On top of everything else, he has survivor's guilt.

 

And it is also true that he is, at this age, an "emote first, think later" guy. No one's taught him any differently. He mourns immediately, and apologises later (although in this case, that's a strength, not a weakness: he was in a safe place, physically, to mourn, in any case. He thought himself alone, again--he was sure the PC was going to die, too. Better to get that over with straight away). He angers quickly (think of his reaction if you kill Connor or Isolde) and apologises when you point out that his motives for being angry are Not Just About Them. He's alone, all the time--and has been, all of his life. Discarded first by his father Maric, then by Eamon (don't even get me started on how effed up that relationship is), then by Cailan, then by Goldanna (who, btw, just happens to give him the new information that his "mother" died giving birth to him--oh, and that "your royal father forced himself on my mother", so he gets to hear he was a product of rape, who killed his mother. Not true, of course, but he doesn't know that--and even if he doesn't believe it: imagine being told that!).

All but Duncan. Who Loghain got killed. And maybe, against all else, The Warden. So, especially if you romance him, or are his bff, this is another "being discarded"--rightly or wrongly, that lizard brain of his is firing. He trusted you to do what you have both been talking about all year--justice on Loghain. And you betray that. Again, he gets to stand alone. And your PC puts him there.

 

Nope. Anything else than how he reacted would have been poor and contrived writing (that Riordan doesn't explain earlier--that's the poor and contrived bit).

I had 2 Wardens who did it. One despised Alistair. He was a human mage, romancing Morrigan (and a blood mage), who just got fed up with all of the "I don't wanna be Kings" and "blah blah blood magic bad boo" from Alistair so he did the absolutely worst thing he could think of to "get" to Alistair: first, he married Alistair to Anora, then he had Loghain join the Wardens, then did the ritual with Morrigan--and then disappeared 2 1/2 years later into the Eluvian with her, so "middle finger, Alistair". (My only other Warden who disliked him that much at least let Anora execute the boy. It was kinder).

The other Warden who grabbed Loghain did it because I wanted the achieve. She was a casteless rogue romancing Leliana and was fine with Ali, but read between Riordan's lines--she was used to the sort of doublespeak Riordan threw out so "got" something else was afoot. She put Anora on the throne (because she did like Ali she wasn't going to force him to take it), then told Anora to eff herself when she tried to execute him. She was genuinely surprised at Alistair's strong response, because that sort of crap goes on in Orzammar all the time: your enemy today may be your friend tomorrow, kinda thing. Swiiiings and roundabouts, etc. She then refused the ritual, and told Loghain to go kill himself, please, because she sure as the stone wasn't going to kill herself if Loghain was available to do it. Alistair became a drunk refugee who turned up in Kirkwall (and don't get me started on that... never mind. ;) )


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#49
springacres

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I should say before launching into this that the 2 playthroughs I've completed were both elf Wardens.  Needless to say, neither of them spared Loghain because they couldn't overlook his selling elves.

 

First time through was my male elf mage who hates blood magic with a passion.  He's very much in agreement with Alistair on the need for Grey Wardens to maintain high moral standards - no blood magic, no golems, no summoning demons, and especially no making deals with blood mage slavers.  He views the Joining as being not truly blood magic (it involves blood and magic, but no more so than tracking escaped Circle mages with phylacteries does).  More to the point, he's keenly aware that as an elf, a Circle mage AND a Grey Warden, he's walking a political tightrope.  He gave Loghain a chance to defend himself both verbally and physically, but in the end he simply couldn't bring himself to spare Loghain in spite of Anora's pleas.  (I headcanon that he at least tried to explain his reasoning to her at the coronation banquet.  I doubt she'd forgive him, but his sense of justice demanded that he try to get her to understand, since he's her new husband's close friend.)

 

Second time was my f!Mahariel, who's a little more reactionary (for obvious reasons).  Her sense of justice is much more knee-jerk "you sold elves into slavery?  YOU DIE!"


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#50
Nykara

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At the risk of stating the obvious here - because he is a character and that is how he was written! To be unwavering on this point. Really though it does make sense to his character also. I don't view it as selfish but I certainly do view him as being exceptionally emotional about this one point.


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