78 réponses à ce sujet

[Jerkules17]

He's like a moody adult child,who see things as black or white,no grey(no pun intended). Even after everything I did I think he still hasn't forgiven my Warden who romance Morrigan did the ritual so no one died,including Loghain an anti villain.The sad part Loghain truly is more heroic.

[Persephone]

If you're romancing him, it's even more of a betrayal to him. Pure and simple. He has more reason, then, to be hurt and angry, not less. He could equally say, that you were choosing to let Loghain live over him. Or choosing to believe Riordan (who you barely know) over the months you spent with him. I could not even conceive of betraying someone I loved that way, given the context (sans metaknowledge).

Because, same circumstances. Why would the HoF agree to it, after having gone through the same things with him? After seeing what Loghain put him through? Especially if she is a mage or Cousland? After everything Loghain did to her?

*Snip*

Bolding mine.

 

Well, he has a pretty abusive idea of "romance" then, I am sorry. That's bloody terrifying. If my significant other treated me like that because I refuse to murder someone/let them murder someone they think deserve to die, I'll tell them to gtfo & away from me. Neither I nor my Warden will be blackmailed into murder, pure and simple.

 

So you'd murder if your relationship was on the line, no matter your personal opinion on the victim? 'cause....again.....terrifying.

 

There is no "betrayal" here. Mercy and pragmatism are not a betrayal. Alistair CHOOSES to walk away and....wait for it......betray everything & everyone over his unsated bloodlust. He needs to get it into his head that not everything is about him. But hey, abandoning millions at the mercy of the archdemon in a huff.......that's not a betrayal?

 

My HoF IS a Cousland.

 

And she had plenty of reasons to not kill Loghain. Here, have a few, as I already mentioned pragmatism & mercy:

 

• She watched her own father die in a pool of blood, she would never do this to someone else (Anora)
• Strategic genius and ability trump sentimental feels, this isn't about a tea party, this is war
• She will be no one's judge, jury and executioner, esp. if her adversary has surrendered honorably.
• What Loghain put Alistair through? What he did to her? She doesn't have time for petty grudges and childish vengeance. Esp. since she knows how politics work, does not believe that Ostagar was a "betrayal" and knows that he didn't work with Howe re: Highever. (Again, she was raised on politics, so yeah)
• Defeating the Blight and saving Ferelden matters more than Alistair, more than she, more than personal selfish desires. She will not risk everything because her boyfriend is throwing a tantrum and trying to blackmail her using their relationship
• Vengeance is empty and hollow. It taints the wielder as much as the victim. She will not endorse it.

 

That's a fragment of why MY HoF did indeed choose sparing Loghain even when Alistair used their relationship to attempt to coerce her into killing him.

 

That's not to say that another HoF can't feel differently, that's the fun of RPing. But broad statements like the stuff I bolded really irk me, is all.

[Mike3207]

I think Alistair's feelings should be allowed to be fully vetted-up to the point he declares he's going for the throne. Politicians have to have the ability to take emotion out of things.

 

Anora seeks to kill Alistair as well, but at least she says it's to prevent civil war. I'd have more respect for Alistair if he could outline any reason for killing Loghain other than Duncan. I just don't like the guy that much-Duncan that is.

[Bethgael]

Persephone, I loved your reply (and none of it irked me... that was harsh. It was a discussion on how he'd see it as a betrayal, under the circumstances, not on how she should feel about/do things ).

 

I'm fascinated at how different our Cousland girls are. Mine is... yeah, a wee bit vengeancy herself. She'd never see Loghain's death as a murder--she sees it as a just execution (again, as a politician). Ostagar absolutely was a betrayal to her. Loghain is a traitor who abandoned his king--her king--on the field. His actions since then have destroyed Ferelden's infrastructure and allowed the Blight a foothold (tactical genius my arse. He's acting on an emotional level himself on the assumption that the Wardens are all "Orlesians" rather than thinking it through). The in-game rumourmill has Gwaren rioting against him. He can't even be bothered with his own Teyrnir (Highever citizens also fight against him, btw, so if she lets him live, she's thumbing her nose at her own people. That's politically smart, gven she has no idea at that time if Fergus is alive and is therefore essentially their Teyrna--Warden or not, since the storyline is apparently ignoring the "wardens aren't political; we leave our lives behind" stuff). The penalty for treason is death. End of discussion--relationship or not--because Riordan has not told her anything she needs to know, either.

 

It's not politically savvy, btw (imo), to have someone declared a traitor at a Landsmeet and then keep him alive. You'd be seen as weak. This is Ferelden, not Orlais. Not letting Anora see her father die? Emotional, not political--and for a woman who tried to betray them, too (if she allows you to be arrested by her father's troops as a reward for rescuing her from Howe). However, on an emotional level, the last thing the Cousland girl's dying father did was to tell her to do her duty and to not allow their betrayal to stand. Loghain made Arl effing Howe Teyrn of Highever. Screw him.

 

In her case, she was the one who told Riordan to get stuffed. Alistair never got the opportunity to be "selfish".

 

(She was also aware that Alistair is not wholly suited to the Throne. 'Tis why she put herself on it. So, politically her move is the same as what Anora tries to do to Alistair should you choose her--execute the opposition. She'd do the same to Anora, but Alistair doesn't allow it because he's too busy naming Anora his heir should he fall against the Archdemon. What a selfish boy, who won't execute the woman who would do the same to him!).
 

I think it's a tribute to a good story that allows for such a wide range of interpretation of motivations in what is, essentially, our own RP.

 

 

(It's a genuine pity that DA:I has moved away from this sort of thing -- Quizzy is "their" character, The Warden was "ours").

 

(My Cousland rogue boy was different. He married Anora and left Ali as a warden--but he also despised Loghain, treason, dead king, death--he liked the idea of being King. He was romancing Zev My "minimalist" game was also a Cousland [I didn't take on any companions except those you couldn't lose-Ali, Dog, Morrigan]. She also killed Loghain because it would break the rules to switch. Heh.).

[Mocksie]

Loghain caused the death of Alistair's father figure (Duncan) and brother, and tried to poison his adopted father (Eamon). He's responsible for the deaths of a lot of people by condemning the Grey Wardens and then ignoring the blight, amongst other things. 

 

Alistair has plenty of reasons to hate Loghain and want him dead. Sure, wanting redemption is an admirable thing, but there's a difference between being a petty criminal and almost causing the destruction of an entire nation. 

 

I've never hesitated to kill Loghain on any of my playthroughs, and it's not just because of Alistair's opinion. My warden's viewpoint was always that if Loghain was so quick to condemn and kill the wardens, then there's no proof that he wouldn't do something like that again. He'd just done enough bad stuff that he was beyond redemption. 

 

The only reason I feel bad for killing him is that it has to be done in front of Anora. But, then again, she's kind've a ****** and barely even seems to care about witnessing her father dying.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But, then again, she's kind've a ****** and barely even seems to care about witnessing her father dying.

Citation needed?

[Mocksie]

Citation needed?

 

She is momentarily shocked, and then immediately gets over it and starts asking about being Queen.

 

That's not a normal reaction to watching your dad get beheaded in front of you. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

She is momentarily shocked, and then immediately gets over it and starts asking about being Queen.

 

That's not a normal reaction to watching your dad get beheaded in front of you. 

Does she have time to show a normal reaction to watching her dad get beheaded in front of her? That whole "asking about being Queen" thing seems to me to be the sort of thing she has to either do right then or not do at all. It doesn't mean she doesn't want to curl into a ball and cry, it just means that that has to wait an hour or so.

[Bethgael]

I dunno. It depends on your viewpoint whether that's "cold" or not. (and also how you've played leading up to it).

 

She sends her elf to tell you that she's been imprisoned by Howe, with the strong implication that it's at the behest of her father, and that Loghain is looking to have her killed and that she's prepared to ally with you. When Loghain's forces show up after you kill Howe, she certainly implies strongly she thinks daddy's trying to do her in. She then says she'll ally with you IF you agree to her being Queen (daddy being killed optional--she does ask you to save him "if possible"--I don't have the exact words but can open the DA:O Toolset now if anyone wants them). IF you tell her you'll support her (whether you intend to or not), she'll come out and tell the Landsmeet her father is, out and out, a traitor (penalty for treason in Ferelden? Death). She does this whether you agree to spare daddy or not.

 

If you let Riordan explain a bit, she'll say, "hey, good idea! He might die anyway, right?" (exact words: "The Joining is often fatal, is it not?").

Then if you lop off his head, she does do the "well, crap, that hurt more than I thought it would" look and then gets back to the business at hand.

 

Now, yes, the politically aware will do that, and cry later. But she (in most cases) can play a hand at causing her father's death. So... she's also selfishly vying for a throne (that she actually has no blood right to, btw--and before anyone agrees with silly Alistair in-game who says she was ruling well prior to that.... really? The problems with the Denerim Alienage before the Blight and Loghain walking all over her husband happened on her watch, then. Good to know. She may be a good administrator--she's not a good ruler)--she's just more sly about her selfishness than Alistair is. She was prepared to, literally, do anything to stay there, including turn on her father and execute her brother-in-law (who is also the last known heir of Calenhad's line). Or marry her dead husband's brother, if you go that route. She can talk about Alistair's selfishness all she likes--right after she asks him whether he would rather be the pot or the kettle.

Having said that, I have also played it so that my Cousland who married her (while still schtupping Zev), and leaving Ali as a Warden never had most of those conversations with her. Alistair gratefully stayed a Warden after he duelled Loghain to his death, Aerron marrried the Queen, everyone was pretty much okay with everyone (including Anora--because her daddy was a traitor and it simply had to be done). In that case, she can actually play as a very sympathetic character who was just as railroaded by Loghain as everyone else was--and who was also as betrayed by Loghain as everyone else was.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If you let Riordan explain a bit, she'll say, "hey, good idea! He might die anyway, right?" (exact words: "The Joining is often fatal, is it not?").

Then if you lop off his head, she does do the "well, crap, that hurt more than I thought it would" look and then gets back to the business at hand.

 

She shows clear signs of not wanting her father to lose his head before it actually happens. Loghain actually consoles her. As for supporting the potentially fatal Joining, that strikes me as a sign of how desperate she was: she doesn't want her father to die in the Joining, she just figures he's more likely to survive the Joining than he is to survive the Decapitating.

 

As for Anora having no blood right to the throne, you are of course correct, but from some of the dialogue Alistair isn't considered to either: Bann Sighard and Bann Ceorlic agree that putting a bastard on the throne is a bad idea, and Sighard uses the phrase "ill precedent," which seems to me to imply it's never happened before. Even Teagan is surprised Eamon is suggesting Alistair, probably for this reason. Eamon even specifically says that he would not do this under any less serious circumstances.

[Bethgael]

She shows clear signs of not wanting her father to lose his head before it actually happens. Loghain actually consoles her. As for supporting the potentially fatal Joining, that strikes me as a sign of how desperate she was: she doesn't want her father to die in the Joining, she just figures he's more likely to survive the Joining than he is to survive the Decapitating.

 

As for Anora having no blood right to the throne, you are of course correct, but from some of the dialogue Alistair isn't considered to either: Bann Sighard and Bann Ceorlic agree that putting a bastard on the throne is a bad idea, and Sighard uses the phrase "ill precedent," which seems to me to imply it's never happened before. Even Teagan is surprised Eamon is suggesting Alistair, probably for this reason. Eamon even specifically says that he would not do this under any less serious circumstances.

 

I agree. Sometimes.

Anora truly is an "RP dependent" character--you can have her go either way. She is, in either case, however, no less selfish than Alistair could be considered to be.

 

A bit off topic, now, but balancing the "oh noes he's a bastard" angle are the rumours and a codex, iirc, that talk about how some believe the reason Ferelden's in so much trouble is because Anora's a commoner, and that the blood of Calanhad is tied directly to Ferelden's fate.  (Ceorlic always votes against you, too, so his opinion's about as valid as Bryland's--who always votes for you. ).

 

Imagine a non-Calanhad-blooded commoner usurper! No one would be happy then. Hehe. Logahin's also a bastard (in the other sense of the word), so he'd have the ultrafecta. *grin*

 

Side note: I kind of wish we'd had that option, too. Forget Alistair and Anora, let's bite the bullet and just keep Loghain there. I had one Warden who would've been okay with that. Maybe a political Mac Tir/Cousland wedding... (although I haven't yet had a Cousland girl who'd be all right with that, I'm sure someone would be. There was some talk, back in the day, about a Loghain romance mod that never happened that postulated the Cousland warden had been betrothed to him pre-Blight, or something. Seemed like an interesting idea).

[olnorton]

What I could never figure, if Riordan had the resources to perform the joining.
Why wasn't he conscripting wardens until he run out of blood?
Why was Loghain the only candidate?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

What I could never figure, if Riordan had the resources to perform the joining.
Why wasn't he conscripting wardens until he run out of blood?
Why was Loghain the only candidate?

We have no evidence that he wasn't Conscripting Wardens until he ran out of blood. (At least if he does get Loghain.)

[olnorton]

We have no evidence that he wasn't Conscripting Wardens until he ran out of blood. (At least if he does get Loghain.)

Yes we do. He wanted to conscript Loghain, so clearly he hadn't run out of blood.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes we do. He wanted to conscript Loghain, so clearly he hadn't run out of blood.

What I was trying to communicate was that that might have been all the blood he had, which would have meant that putting Loghain through the Joining would have been "Conscripting Wardens until he ran out of blood."

[Arisugawa]

We have no evidence that he wasn't Conscripting Wardens until he ran out of blood. (At least if he does get Loghain.)

 

 

Yes we do. He wanted to conscript Loghain, so clearly he hadn't run out of blood.

 

But if you ask him about this, he states that the Wardens cannot recruit additional members because no Archdemon blood is available. He also is very clear on what he was doing between coming to Ferelden and being captured in Denerim, and this wasn't recruiting. He is also very clear about what he intends to do after you have freed him, and that does not involve recruiting, again because no blood is available.

 

Considering that he came into Ferelden during a time when the Regent had declared Wardens outlaws for betraying the King at Ostagar, it is highly unlikely that Riordan would be openly attempting to recruit anyone and was probably keeping the fact that he was a Warden secret.

 

If he was recruiting at any point after coming to Ferelden, he is deliberately omitting many of his actions and his intentions to you. Which is certainly possible; there's no guarantee Riordan is being honest with you. It seems unlikely that he would be, but the possibility always exists.

[Riven326]

I saw this and wondered why we couldn't keep Alistair AND Loghain in the party, it was either Alistair or Loghain. IMO there should have been an option for master cunning to persuade Alistair to have him join without him leaving, such as:

 

Alistair: I will not have him as a brother I won't!

 

Warden: (Persuade) We need all the help we can get Alistair, don't be selfish

 

Alistair: That man killed our brethren and blamed us for the deed!

 

Warden: (Persuade) He can help by taking the final blow, think about it! 

 

and thus have Loghain kill himself for the good of Ferelden and both of the Warden and Alistair would have survived without the need of that dark ritual. 

Put yourself in his shoes for a moment. Would you want someone who was directly responsible for the death of your friends (and who has also tried to have you killed) in the same group as you?

[Bethgael]

Put yourself in his shoes for a moment. Would you want someone who was directly responsible for the death of your friends (and who has also tried to have you killed) in the same group as you?

 

Exactly. And, on top of that, "he can help by taking the final blow" is something neither of them knew about yet, so no matter how high your persuade is, 'tisn't going to work.

The issue is not Alistair's selfishness. It was Riordan's inappropriate secrecy up until it was finally "revealed" to "have an impact on the player". I imagine, at that point, Alistair would have been thinking, "well, ****. Maybe we should've kept old General Treasonpants alive, after all" too.

[Bethgael]

We have no evidence that he wasn't Conscripting Wardens until he ran out of blood. (At least if he does get Loghain.)

 

Yes, we do, if we believe Riordan's own words. Here is his conversation with the Warden when you find him at Howe's (directly from the toolset):

Warden: What are you doing here?

Riordan: For the most part, attempting to hold my tongue. I was sent when we received no word from King Cailan as to the outcome at Ostagar. The king had invited all of the Wardens of Orlais and their support troops to join him, then... nothing.

Warden: How large a force did you bring with you?

Riordan: [information on that, then:] We finally decided it was safest to send someone, alone, to learn how best to fight the Blight and this regime simultaneously. As a native Ferelden, I volunteered to make the crossing. 

Warden: But the Archdemon's nearly here! Will we have no help?

Riordan: [The other Wardens won't risk it, etc] But if Ferelden is too foolish to save itself, at least we'll be ready when the archdemon leads its forces further. Besides, I hear you haven't been doing badly at raising an army yourself.

So, point 1: Riordan's focus was on spying, not recruiting.

 

This is the important bit, though:

Warden (after asking about the papers you find and being told it's a copy of the Joining): The joining ritual? Can you induct other Grey wardens?

Riordan: Would that I could, for Ferelden sorely needs them. But for the Joining to work, the recruit not only needs fresh darkspawn blood, but a drop of blood preserved from an Archdemon. Ferelden's supply should have been in the vault, but it is gone. I can only imagine someone took it out and Loghain either confiscated or destroyed it.

Warden: Then we need to get it back.

Riordan: As you know, the Joining's success is slim, anyhow. Loghain has done far worse than cut us off from recruiting.

Point 2: He wasn't recruiting, because he literally couldn't. There was no blood. Not even enough for one.

 

And back to what people have said, above, Riordan even offering it at the Landsmeet was internally inconsistent. Loghain had not yet been defeated, so how does Riordan think hes getting the Archdemon blood that Loghain, he assumed, confiscated or destroyed? There was no time between "we vote for the Warden/Loghain's fight" and saying "wait! I know I said the Joining is impossible but how about we make Loghain Join!"

The only way he could have known Loghain hadn't destroyed the blood is.... er... well, shyte. If he'd spoken to Loghain prior to the Landsmeet? And, er, wouldn't that just make Riordan a bit on the "well, that's shady" side (from the Warden's party's viewpoint) in any case? He'd just told you the Joining was impossible and now he wants to Join Loghain? HOW? That'd make the Warden (if they're paying attention) suspicious of Riordan, I would think, making Alistair's objections even more likely.

 

(Yes, I'm extrapolating, but only from the evidence the warden has of both parties in-game. Remember everything they have fought in the human lands has had Loghain's touch on it: Redcliffe, Kinloch Hold, Denerim, Ostagar--and they don't know Riordan, who has, apparently, either withheld information from them about the Archdemon's blood or has lied to them about it. They'd be highly suspicious of Riordan's motives in wanting Loghain saved, as a result. So the new question would be not why Alistair would object, but why would Riordan suggest it, under the circumstances? Now, if they'd had a "find the blood" quest and Riordan had told them about the "dying Warden" at Arl Eamon's--the most appropriate time to tell them rather than springing it on them the night before they head to Denerim [which, btw, is also highly irresponsible of Riordan--what if he'd died between Denerim and Redcliffe while he was scouting out the darkspawn? Then no one would have known about it!]--then I'd think differently. they didn't. The problem is the internally inconsistent writing, not Alistair. Don't blame Alistair for contrived drama in a plotline. ).

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I saw this and wondered why we couldn't keep Alistair AND Loghain in the party, it was either Alistair or Loghain. IMO there should have been an option for master cunning to persuade Alistair to have him join without him leaving, such as:

 

Emotion clouds reason.

[Fireheart]

Yes, we do, if we believe Riordan's own words. Here is his conversation with the Warden when you find him at Howe's (directly from the toolset):

 

This is the important bit, though:

Warden (after asking about the papers you find and being told it's a copy of the Joining): The joining ritual? Can you induct other Grey wardens?

Riordan: Would that I could, for Ferelden sorely needs them. But for the Joining to work, the recruit not only needs fresh darkspawn blood, but a drop of blood preserved from an Archdemon. Ferelden's supply should have been in the vault, but it is gone. I can only imagine someone took it out and Loghain either confiscated or destroyed it.

Warden: Then we need to get it back.

Riordan: As you know, the Joining's success is slim, anyhow. Loghain has done far worse than cut us off from recruiting.

 

Who knows? Maybe he highly assumed that Loghain actually simply confiscated it and hid it somewhere? And destroy? How do you usually get rid of blood? You mop/wipe it up, poor down the sink? Do they even have sinks/plumbing? I mean, if it was in a glass vial or something they could've thrown it in the garbage, smashed it on the ground outside somewhere and left it, or cleaned it up. There must of been some traces of it left somewhere, even if they had to fish it out a garbage can, it should still be viable... I guess. I have to admit I never noticed that inconstistency and I've played this game many times. But after the first 2 times, I don't go in to deep convo with him since I know's he going to die. I just ask him for the GW vault so I can get Duncan's shield...

 

Anyway, I don't think Alistair is selfish persay (sp?). Like another poster wrote, they gave an example of how would a City Elf feel if they were asked to spare Vaughan? If someone suggested that to my Warden, she would flip out just like Alistair did. People say Alistair is being selfish in wanting to kill Loghain for Duncan. My Warden is no different, in that case, wanting to kill Loghain because he sold her Alienage friends into slavery and almost her father too, so I cannot fault Alistair.

 

However, this makes Alistair the worst romance in Origins because you cannot continue the romance if you spare Loghain. And if you kill Loghain you have to let Alistair sleep with Morrigan. Now I don't have a problem with them merely sleeping together, but the fact they bare a child together? The one thing I cannot give him cuz we are both Grey Wardens, even though this ritual saves both our lives? That was so f***ed up on Bioware's part, man, I hated that. So I tried to kill Morrigan in Witch Hunt cuz I was pissed. Err, I'm way too invested in my character lol. Got a little off track near the end there but you guys get my point.

[Persephone]

She shows clear signs of not wanting her father to lose his head before it actually happens. Loghain actually consoles her. As for supporting the potentially fatal Joining, that strikes me as a sign of how desperate she was: she doesn't want her father to die in the Joining, she just figures he's more likely to survive the Joining than he is to survive the Decapitating.

 

As for Anora having no blood right to the throne, you are of course correct, but from some of the dialogue Alistair isn't considered to either: Bann Sighard and Bann Ceorlic agree that putting a bastard on the throne is a bad idea, and Sighard uses the phrase "ill precedent," which seems to me to imply it's never happened before. Even Teagan is surprised Eamon is suggesting Alistair, probably for this reason. Eamon even specifically says that he would not do this under any less serious circumstances.

 

There is this AND, no matter Eamon's idiotic infatuation with the "royal" bloodline:

Fereldan monarchs are ELECTED/confirmed by the Landsmeet, the throne is NOT inherited but EARNED. There are no "blood rights" to it. Which is why Bryce Cousland almost became king instead of Cailan & only didn't because he himself chose not to pursue the throne. (Damn shame, given Cailan's incompetence)

And given Alistair's shoddy performance as king in DAI, I'm more convinced than ever that I'll never make him king again.

 

As for Anora's reaction to her father's death, lemme tell you a thing as someone who witnessed a parent of mine die.

 

1. You just doused her in her father's blood, irrevocably traumatizing her. Made twice as horrific if she actually helped you all the way and you betrayed her.
2. If she does not shoot for the throne immediately, then in addition to her father, she will lose her autonomy, her job, her freedom AND her life. So survival instincts kick in. After my mother died, I couldn't cry for another 24 hours. I sat down and watched mindless stuff until it all came crashing down.
3. And Anora reacts similarly. If she is solo queen, her sliders very clearly show that she never gets over just how her father died. And why. Even her reaction afterwards shows this. She won't throw a tantrum or cry in front of you. Her father's killers will not reduce her to that, they don't deserve to see her like that. So she holds it together.

And tbh? If you think that killing Loghain there is punishing him, you are deluding yourself. The man wants to die at that point, it is pretty obvious in fact. (And post recruitment dialogue confirms it) The only one being punished by it (unjustly so) is his daughter. Then again, I fail to see the good in such vengeful behavior, never mind that it's wasteful and what not. But that's neither here nor there.

[Xetykins]

I thought Alistair was rather dashing as King in DA:I. So mature and authoritative. Goofiness is still present which is nice. Only that his cameo as king is too short and abrupt, so there goes my canon state. Its Grey Warden import for him from now on :-)

[Persephone]

I thought Alistair was rather dashing as King in DA:I. So mature and authoritative. Goofiness is still present which is nice. Only that his cameo as king is too short and abrupt, so there goes my canon state. Its Grey Warden import for him from now on :-)

 

Dashing, yes. He also did the right thing in his cameo. What I am referring to is his correspondence with the Inquisition beyond that. It is cringeworthy and shows a lack of statecraft, politics, warfare and the most basic understanding of how to interract with foreign dignitaries. That isn't endearing or cute. It's incompetent and a regression of who he was in DAO, where he had the excuse of being 20-21 years of age with no experience or training to speak of. It is exactly why I rarely made him king even before DAI confirmed my fears and even then I only made him king on the condition that he marry the queen and suck it up like an adult tbh.