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The reason why I (and perhaps others) criticize DAI.


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#1
Dakota Strider

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MESSAGE POPULAIRE !

This thread is dedicated to the those that complain about those of us that complain about the game.  For whatever reason you love DLI DAI and just cannot stand the thought that other people do not share your love of the game, and need to attack its critics, and belittle the concerns of those that post in the forums with the problems we have with Bioware's latest game.

 

Granted, I do not claim to speak for everyone.  Nobody, on either side can do that.  What I am presenting is anecdotal evidence (meaning the experiences of myself and friends).  Not everyone has the exact same experiences, but from what I have read in the last six weeks on these forums, many people do. 

 

Since my first computer, almost 30 years ago, I have played many games.  Played a lot of good and great games.  Have played some real stinkers.  Normally, if I get a bad game, I just forget about it.  All I have really lost is a relatively small amount of money, and perhaps several evenings or a weekend of my time.  Probably did not buy a game from that company again, either.  But, I really did not have anything invested in that company.  So, I never bothered to go to those companies' websites/forums/fansites and make my displeasure known.  Not worth the trouble.

 

But, Bioware is not one of those companies.  As many of us have, I have been playing their games for almost two decades now.  I have over $500 of their titles on my shelves, and if you include downloads, probably a total of $1000 that I have "invested" in their company.  Even more importantly, I have easily spent thousands upon thousands of hours playing Bioware games.  And Bioware was not just a game company, they have gone out of their way in the past (and hopefully still do) to make their customers feel like part of the community, and not just a paycheck.   It was a symbiotic relationship, where Bioware put out the best CRPG's available, bringing to "life" on the computer what a great tabletop rpg or fantasy novel could only make you imagine.  And in return, Bioware gained a very loyal fanbase that bought almost every title they produced.  With this support, Bioware kept creating bigger and better games, that kept the formula of combining a tactical combat system with a great role play experience,  Not saying there were never complaints, but they were relatively small. 

 

With the release of Dragon Age Origins, the main complaints (besides the inevitable technical bugs) came from the console community, that complained that their game systems were unable to do all the many things that PC owners of the game could do.  Personally, I thought it was rather silly that they would attempt to play such a complex CRPG on a platform, other than a computer.  At the time, it did not really bother me that Bioware was porting their flagship game to consoles.  Figured it was more money for them, that would allow them to build even bigger and better games for the PC, as technology allowed.  So, I was still secure in the "relationship".

 

But, DA2 showed, that Bioware was starting to take the PC market for granted, and was spending more time trying to build a game that appealed to the console players.  More flash, simpler controls, fewer choices, and going from a realistic style of combat (yes....I know that a game based around magic, is not "realistic", but the beauty of most fantasy swords and sorcery systems is that you do everything just like you would do normally...with the addition of magic) to a more arcade style combat, where every character class jumps and leaps, doing stunts that are normally only possible with hidden wires in Hollywood.  It may have made for a more visually appealing game (for some audiences), but it really started to gut what was always the heart of a CRPG, a tactical combat system that had great roleplay aspects.  As I have stated elsewhere, it was akin to having your partner leaving you, for a bimbo that was impressed with pretty graphics and flashy animations, and was bored or frustrated when confronted with a tactical rpg.

 

With the release of DLI DAI, it has become even more clear, that Bioware has stopped making a game that took advantage of all the possibilities that a game on a PC platform can provide, and then port everything it could to the consoles.  Instead, they are making games that do everything within the limitations of a console, and then port that to the PC.  So, while the console gamers are able to have a game that does everything their platform allows, PC players have a game that is figuratively having our platform play with one hand behinds its back. 

 

So yes, I complain.  I try to do so as constructively, and with as much decorum as possible.  But I do so because I care about this company, and do not want to see it continue down this path.  If this was just another gaming company, that produced a game I did not like, I would not bother.  But this is a company I have supported over many years, and I now see it spurning that support and going about destroying the legacy it has built during that time.  I feel obligated to try to make my voice heard.  Obviously, there is some self-interest involved.  But, it is also because I do not want Bioware to become just another run-of-the-mill game company that pumps out clones of other games, that all look and play alike.  Bioware games used to stand out, and now they try to copy whatever the latest trend is, in an attempt to gain market share.  What's next, Dragon Age: Angry Birds? 

 

To sum it up, I complain because I care.

 

 

EDIT (After spending 38 hours downloading this game, not counting the patches, obviously, I still have DownLoad on my mind.  And I thought I did such a good job of editing this before posting)

 

EDIT part deux:  At the request of my many fans (okay, critics), I should clarify that I am not attempting to blame all problems on console gamers (as tempting as that may be.)  Obviously, I am complaining that the game is being dumbed down, by the standards I have come to expect from Bioware games.  This does not mean, because somebody else enjoys the aspects of the game, that I do not, that they are wrong, nor are they dumb.  Different tastes for different folks, and it has nothing to do with IQ.  Bioware used to make games for a very unique niche of the gaming market.  This niche audience may not be the largest portion of the audience, but it is still substantial.  Now, they seem to be trying to please everyone, by making so many changes, that in the end, they are pleasing less people.  The company that I have been so loyal to, seems now to be succumbing to the attitude that they should market the game to many different styles of gamers.  But, it is impossible to make a game that pleases everyone.  Bioware needs to decide who their target market is, and make games just for them.  If they decide it is no longer the CRPGer, then they will lose a lot of their loyal customers, and we will spend our money with companies that do cater to us.


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#2
McPartyson

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What is DLI? Is it some sort of new abbreviation for Dragon Age Inquisition...did I miss something?


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#3
Elsariel

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What is DLI? Is it some sort of new abbreviation for Dragon Age Inquisition...did I miss something?

 

I laughed way harder at this than I should have.   :lol:



#4
Dakota Strider

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Point made.  I still have DownLoad on my mind.  That is another story onto itself.



#5
Elhanan

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It took about 24 hrs to download SWTOR due to internet hiccups, so I choose to get disks when possible. But I liked it anyway, as well as DA2, ME series, etc. While I have not played every Bioware title, I am pleased with every single one that I have experienced.

I also have complaints, but attempt to so with respect to them. And I support this type of constructive criticism, as things may improve because of it.
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#6
Dakota Strider

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I bought the discs, pre-release, just to avoid the problem of down load time.  I live out in the country, and the best internet I have available is DSL.  But...the 3rd disc was apparently damaged, and rather than wait for an exchange, I did the download.  But, that is a technical problem, which does not concern me at all, compared to the direction of Bioware's game design.



#7
Sidney

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I'm glad you care but of course the implication being that we who are tired of listening to the endless griping don't care.

I'll roll out all the same caveats you do. I played BG1 and BG2 until my eyes bled. So did my then girlfriend and now wife. We are a two Bioware family. I've got everything other than that Sonic thing they have done. I've been playing CRPGs going all the way back to the old Gold Box games and Wasteland and even back to Phantasie from SSI - I do so miss SSI BTW. Heck to get really silly the Treasure of Tarmin on my Intellivision was a D&D property. To use a phrase someone my age shouldn't, I'm about as old school as it gets with this stuff.

The thing that boggles my mind is that DAI is the same flippin' game as BG1. Graphics are better and flashier but the pause n' play party controlled combat remains the same. The chatty companions are back. Romances, decisions, influence and approval. Check, check, check, check. Here is where I guess you get into lumpers and splitters because to me I see a lot more the same than is different between two products over 15 years apart.

You talk about losing their way but if BG1/2 were a path. NWN to me walked off that path with one controlled character and your hopelessly stupid AI helper. KOTOR came back to the path but added a lot more powers and queuing? JE walked away yet again as a pure action RPG. ME went its own way trying to straddle the RPG and shooter world. DAO came back to that BG formula. ME2 dropped the clunky In other words,I'm don't think they are walking away as the path was never a straight as you thought. They have played with "the formula" for years now. It isn't abiut EA or about consoles or about MP. The reality is that they have changed and tried new things basically with every series for sure and usually by game within a series.

DAI brings back tactical camera, adds in more robust crafting, exploration, the (admittedly light) strategic layer of the war table and you are worried they are going the wrong way?
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#8
SunburnedPenguin

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OP - You are obviously capable of eloquent and well thought out argument. I hope you put as much effort into complaining about what the government spends your taxes on, as you are an investor in that government after all.



#9
Dakota Strider

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@SunburnedPenguin :  Regarding politics, I try to do my part.  But, under a different pen name ;)


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#10
Elsariel

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So yes, I complain.  I try to do so as constructively, and with as much decorum as possible.  

 

This is how it should be.  Unfortunately, not everyone is so polite and reasonable against dissenting opinions.


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#11
Anouk

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So buy a console. problem solved.

 

Then you can play pc and console games.



#12
Moirnelithe

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So buy a console. problem solved.

 

Then you can play pc and console games.

 

Missing the point....completely  :blink:


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#13
Maverick827

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People criticize games because game developers turn on a dime when people criticize games.

What, am I supposed to just give up this franchise to the criitics who got it changed in the first place without fighting with my own criticism? Why was the criticism that turned DAO into DA2 and DA2 into DAI any more valid than the criticism that will hopefully turn DAI into DAO2?

#14
Dakota Strider

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I would buy a console, if I enjoyed dumbed down,  games that do not meet the standards I have come to expect.


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#15
DaemionMoadrin

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Dakota Strider, I agree with you 100%. But it still wouldn't hurt if you went into the full edit mode and changed the DLI in the title into DA:I. ;)

 

Honestly, I'm burned out. I am sick and tired of repeating myself, to explain that I do not hate EA/BioWare or DA:I. That I try to voice my opinion in the faint hope of change. That I wouldn't even bother posting here if I didn't care.

 

It is always baffling to me when people reduce a discussion to two sides, often to two opposing, extreme points of view. I'm neither a fanboy nor a hater, I'm simply a gamer who expected more. I completed the game, I did not "pirate" it, I even enjoyed parts of it. ... eh.

 

I wrote so much in the past few weeks, I feel like I'm in a beta again and trying to convince the devs that their grand vision is going to go up in flames if they release it as is. *coughs* SW:TOR *coughs*

 

What did I get for my troubles? Silence from the devs and a warning from a board admin because I insisted that downloading illegal copies of a digital product are neither piracy nor theft. And it only got to this point because someone ... intellectually challenged insisted that all the people complaining about bugs are "pirates", because the paid for game is perfect.

 

I even started writing my own review, then simply stopped because I saw what happens to every review thread in this forum. If I had any faith in humanity left, this forum would have crushed it completely.


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#16
XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX

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So...this is essentially another "console players are destroying gaming" thread?
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#17
DaemionMoadrin

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So...this is essentially another "console players are destroying gaming" thread?

 

No. No, it is not. Console players aren't to blame for a company's decisions.

 

I believe that certain games -need- keyboard and mouse to be played properly. Developing them for consoles is a design mistake and one that limits a game's potential. Oh, I clearly blame the company for that. But never the gamers.

 

It's not like all the console players are totally happy with the product they bought, right?


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#18
Frond

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The circle of life folks. Not really a bad thing. All us PC gamers are realising now that Bioware doesn't make CRPGs anymore. Therefore a new company will step up and fill that market after we abandon Bioware.
Larian (D:OS)?
Obsidian (Pillars of Eternity)?
Possibly CDProjekt Red (TW3)?
Hairbrained (Shadowrun)?

Who know what the future holds for us? It looks pretty bright to me.
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#19
Bioware-Critic

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This thread is dedicated to the those that complain about those of us that complain about the game.  For whatever reason you love DLI DAI and just cannot stand the thought that other people do not share your love of the game, and need to attack its critics, and belittle the concerns of those that post in the forums with the problems we have with Bioware's latest game.

 

Granted, I do not claim to speak for everyone.  Nobody, on either side can do that.  What I am presenting is anecdotal evidence (meaning the experiences of myself and friends).  Not everyone has the exact same experiences, but from what I have read in the last six weeks on these forums, many people do. 

 

Since my first computer, almost 30 years ago, I have played many games.  Played a lot of good and great games.  Have played some real stinkers.  Normally, if I get a bad game, I just forget about it.  All I have really lost is a relatively small amount of money, and perhaps several evenings or a weekend of my time.  Probably did not buy a game from that company again, either.  But, I really did not have anything invested in that company.  So, I never bothered to go to those companies' websites/forums/fansites and make my displeasure known.  Not worth the trouble.

 

But, Bioware is not one of those companies.  As many of us have, I have been playing their games for almost two decades now.  I have over $500 of their titles on my shelves, and if you include downloads, probably a total of $1000 that I have "invested" in their company.  Even more importantly, I have easily spent thousands upon thousands of hours playing Bioware games.  And Bioware was not just a game company, they have gone out of their way in the past (and hopefully still do) to make their customers feel like part of the community, and not just a paycheck.   It was a symbiotic relationship, where Bioware put out the best CRPG's available, bringing to "life" on the computer what a great tabletop rpg or fantasy novel could only make you imagine.  And in return, Bioware gained a very loyal fanbase that bought almost every title they produced.  With this support, Bioware kept creating bigger and better games, that kept the formula of combining a tactical combat system with a great role play experience,  Not saying there were never complaints, but they were relatively small. 

 

With the release of Dragon Age Origins, the main complaints (besides the inevitable technical bugs) came from the console community, that complained that their game systems were unable to do all the many things that PC owners of the game could do.  Personally, I thought it was rather silly that they would attempt to play such a complex CRPG on a platform, other than a computer.  At the time, it did not really bother me that Bioware was porting their flagship game to consoles.  Figured it was more money for them, that would allow them to build even bigger and better games for the PC, as technology allowed.  So, I was still secure in the "relationship".

 

But, DA2 showed, that Bioware was starting to take the PC market for granted, and was spending more time trying to build a game that appealed to the console players.  More flash, simpler controls, fewer choices, and going from a realistic style of combat (yes....I know that a game based around magic, is not "realistic", but the beauty of most fantasy swords and sorcery systems is that you do everything just like you would do normally...with the addition of magic) to a more arcade style combat, where every character class jumps and leaps, doing stunts that are normally only possible with hidden wires in Hollywood.  It may have made for a more visually appealing game (for some audiences), but it really started to gut what was always the heart of a CRPG, a tactical combat system that had great roleplay aspects.  As I have stated elsewhere, it was akin to having your partner leaving you, for a bimbo that was impressed with pretty graphics and flashy animations, and was bored or frustrated when confronted with a tactical rpg.

 

With the release of DLI DAI, it has become even more clear, that Bioware has stopped making a game that took advantage of all the possibilities that a game on a PC platform can provide, and then port everything it could to the consoles.  Instead, they are making games that do everything within the limitations of a console, and then port that to the PC.  So, while the console gamers are able to have a game that does everything their platform allows, PC players have a game that is figuratively having our platform play with one hand behinds its back. 

 

So yes, I complain.  I try to do so as constructively, and with as much decorum as possible.  But I do so because I care about this company, and do not want to see it continue down this path.  If this was just another gaming company, that produced a game I did not like, I would not bother.  But this is a company I have supported over many years, and I now see it spurning that support and going about destroying the legacy it has built during that time.  I feel obligated to try to make my voice heard.  Obviously, there is some self-interest involved.  But, it is also because I do not want Bioware to become just another run-of-the-mill game company that pumps out clones of other games, that all look and play alike.  Bioware games used to stand out, and now they try to copy whatever the latest trend is, in an attempt to gain market share.  What's next, Dragon Age: Angry Birds? 

 

To sum it up, I complain because I care.

 

 

EDIT (After spending 38 hours downloading this game, not counting the patches, obviously, I still have DownLoad on my mind.  And I thought I did such a good job of editing this before posting)

@ OP

 

You are obviously completely WRONG about consoles - because you obviously don't know the first thing about console-gaming - but ...

 

I very much appreciate this thread of yours and I wish you as much success as possible!

These claims of yours are very much valid and very much important to all of us - so, thank you!

 

I am getting tired of telling this to PC-gamers on this forum, but: "EVERYTHING THAT IS BROKEN ON PC IS BROKEN ON CONSOLE TOO!"

 

I am playing on PC and consoles since I can remember and I am a big fan of classical RPG's and even P&P games ...

DA:O had all it's complexity carried over to consoles apart from the adjustable camera angle. But you could use every command and tactic just like on the PC side of things. When DA2 came out, I played it for about 15 hours and then threw it into the bin! It was the first time I threw away a game out of pure resentment! It had nothing to do anymore with Dragon Age for me - I hated it! In 2014 I bought DA2 a second time. But even then I could not bring myself to finish it completely. I had high hopes for DA:I and I was really MAD after I had donwloaded it for earlier acces for about 25 hours and made my first observations with it. As a true DA:O fan it took me just a couple of minutes to fully grasp that EVERYTHING HAD GONE TO S*HIT!

It was the first game I ever pre-ordered and I will never pre-order any title ever again!

 

When I had reached the point of playing Inquisition for about 20 hours I needed a break and some fresh air - I was LIVID! For the first time in my life I made a metacritic account and a BSN account. My sole purpose here since this day is to b*itch about the lack of complexity, player-agency, depth and so on ...

 

To give you a better understanding of how monumentally WRONG you are about console-players, Dakota Strider, I will give you a link for my review on metacritic: http://www.metacriti.../Bioware-Critic  Just scroll down on the page and hit "expand".

You should read the reviews for PC and PS4!

 

Now go on, tell me I am different from you, tell me I am easy to please - except, you cannot!

 

What companies do these days, has nothing to do with "consolization" such fantasy terms have NO meaning in the real world! What they really do is to dumb down games, franchises and even entire genre's to go after the casual gamers ... except, such things as "casual gamers" do also not exist! You heared me - they do not exist! Instead what casual gamers means is: "People who do not play or buy games of the genre in question!" ... That's it, nothing more ... People who are easily tricked into buying s*hit they don't need. The planet is practically littered with these folks ... and now that gaming is getting bigger and bigger ... The companies are getting more and more greedy! And I don't mean Bioware by saying that ...

 

So, ... if you want to achieve anything at all, Dakota Strider, adress the dumbing down of the franchise - not the BOOGEYMAN that is "consolization". Companies dumb down titles to sell more not to port anything! They make conscious design choices to lower the entrance hurdle for non-genre-players, for non-RPG-gamers!

 

WE CONSOLE GAMERS ARE JUST AS LIVID AS YOU ARE ABOUT THIS PROCESS! IT CONCERNS US JUST AS MUCH!


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#20
Viper371

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and a warning from a board admin because I insisted that downloading illegal copies of a digital product are neither piracy nor theft.

To be honest, it is piracy.  the medium used does not change the copyright polycies.

 

as for bugs making the game unplayable, like crash, freeze, etc, I have experienced none on my PC hardware, playing with an AMD card.

Can't talk about Nvidia cards, sorry for people having problems there, I totally understand their frustrations.

 

Imho, a lot of these issues might be problematic driver installation, I know it was my problem at first, but once I completely uninstalled and reinstalled the drivers, I was ok, zero issues in 120hrs of game.   This is made worst since EA made it an official policy that all tech support was to be handled by them.  The people there are clueless about the particular games, heck, they probably ain't even gamers or computer whizz themselves, just people who know how to read&write and follow an instruction letter.  EA has always had the worst tech support in the industry.  So gamers with problems are stuck with non existent support.  Not a great way to build fan support.


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#21
DaemionMoadrin

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To be honest, it is piracy.  the medium used does not change the copyright polycies.

 

I am -not- having this discussion in this thread. If you want we can discuss it in private messages.

I'm just saying this: Copyright infringement is not piracy nor is it theft. Consult every law book you can find, it will support this statement.


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#22
Dakota Strider

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@Bioware-Critic:  You are correct, that I have, in general, connected putting games on a console as the equivalent to dumbing down the game.  And that is my main point, in that the game has been dumbed down, for whatever the reason.  And it does seem that the time that Bioware started to dumb down their franchises, seemed to coincide when they started to cater to console gamers.  Perhaps that is only coincidence. I have tried console games myself, and was not impressed, but perhaps it was just the product, and not the platform.

 

You do make some very good points.  And as DaemionMoadrin pointed out, I do not mean to attack the console players, so much as the company that seems to be trying to cater to a different style of gamer, than the ones they built their company on.  And as you mentioned, there are a myriad of choices out there for gamers, Bioware should not feel the need to try to make a game that will get everyone to purchase theirs.  If they do, they will find far more people that are dissatisfied than will be completely happy.  If they would go back to targeting a specific niche in the gaming world, they will still have a substantial customer base, and one would think that would make producing games far easier, than trying to be the jack-of-all-trades in the fantasy rpg market.


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#23
Bioware-Critic

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@Bioware-Critic:  You are correct, that I have, in general, connected putting games on a console as the equivalent to dumbing down the game.  And that is my main point, in that the game has been dumbed down, for whatever the reason.  And it does seem that the time that Bioware started to dumb down their franchises, seemed to coincide when they started to cater to console gamers.  Perhaps that is only coincidence. I have tried console games myself, and was not impressed, but perhaps it was just the product, and not the platform.

 

You do make some very good points.  And as DaemionMoadrin pointed out, I do not mean to attack the console players, so much as the company that seems to be trying to cater to a different style of gamer, than the ones they built their company on.  And as you mentioned, there are a myriad of choices out there for gamers, Bioware should not feel the need to try to make a game that will get everyone to purchase theirs.  If they do, they will find far more people that are dissatisfied than will be completely happy.  If they would go back to targeting a specific niche in the gaming world, they will still have a substantial customer base, and one would think that would make producing games far easier, than trying to be the jack-of-all-trades in the fantasy rpg market.

Thanks!

 

I honestly appreciate you saying that. I hear you!

 

I think it is important that we all take a stand against these new practices from the industry! We cannot afford to be devided on this! It is like f*ucking cancer and I will get out of gaming - I swear - if this this goes on and on ...


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#24
Andrew Lucas

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Yep, consoles are the ones to blame for the recent games from Bioware and from others companies not meeting your expectations.

*cringes*

#25
Bioware-Critic

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@Bioware-Critic:  You are correct, that I have, in general, connected putting games on a console as the equivalent to dumbing down the game.  And that is my main point, in that the game has been dumbed down, for whatever the reason.  And it does seem that the time that Bioware started to dumb down their franchises, seemed to coincide when they started to cater to console gamers.  Perhaps that is only coincidence. I have tried console games myself, and was not impressed, but perhaps it was just the product, and not the platform.

 

You do make some very good points.  And as DaemionMoadrin pointed out, I do not mean to attack the console players, so much as the company that seems to be trying to cater to a different style of gamer, than the ones they built their company on.  And as you mentioned, there are a myriad of choices out there for gamers, Bioware should not feel the need to try to make a game that will get everyone to purchase theirs.  If they do, they will find far more people that are dissatisfied than will be completely happy.  If they would go back to targeting a specific niche in the gaming world, they will still have a substantial customer base, and one would think that would make producing games far easier, than trying to be the jack-of-all-trades in the fantasy rpg market.

 

Since this is still a new thread you could still edit a few sentences to make the expession of the article match the truly intended meaning of your claims a bit more. Simply exchange consoles with dumbing-down (sort of) and smack the "save" button :) Or just add a few sentences at the end! If this helps this thread and the much appreciated conversation and discussion of an important topic - who cares ?!! I know I wouldn't mind ...