293 réponses à ce sujet

[scrutinizer]

I am still waiting for someone to tell me what stat allocation is available in any early crpg outside of the character creation screen. The only ones that come to my mind are TES and Fallout series which is based on SPECIAL. In the SPECIAL system the maximum value of an attribute was 9. Implants and certain perks were the only way to get it above that number in Fallout. No games based on the D & D ruleset had stat allocation or re-allocating outside of character creation.

Wizardry 8 (don't know about other installments though)

Diablo 1 & 2 (before you dismiss it as a mere hack'n'slash, think of the impact the series had on RPGs)

Nox

TES (as you mentioned)

Avernum saga 

Planescape Torment

Evil Island (has anyone played it? A bloody good game)

Divine Divinty (and presumably other Divinity games)

Arcanum of Steamworks and Magick Obscura

and probably quite a lot of other games, where 'level up' means 'more attributes/stats points to allocate'

 

Betrayal at Krondor and Jagged Alliance have attributes increasing the more you use them.

 

BG1 is certainly not akin to the Inquisition system of attributes, nor is any DnD-based game, where equipment only slightly improves your stats (and again, BG1 features only 4 stats increasing items), and they are pretty much defined during character's stats allocation.

In DA:I attributes are allocated automatically as you level up. Certain items can increase an attribute score. like the Axe of Green Edges, which gives +6 to willpower. In regards to BG series, +6 to any stat would be a substantial and overpowered boost (I'm looking at you improved Crom Faeyr). This is where differences between the two games are apparent - while +6 to willpower is nothing special really in DA:I, BG2's Crom Faeyr instant 25 strength is a game-balance breaker. The two systems differ, and I maintain, to compare them and claim they are similar is a stretch. 

 

Peace.

[mutantspicy]

Add Neverwinter Nights to that list.  DnD 3 gave you a character attribute point every 4 levels.

[scrutinizer]

Fetch, kill quests, escort and explore quests are in every crpg known. BG1 had them by the boat load especially fetch quests which you had to do or be under leveled. DAO even made a joke of it if you play the human noble. One of the first quests in BG1 is to go into a house and kill some rats. Ser Gilmore in DAO comments about killing rats that Dog finds in lauder in DAO.

And regarding fetch/kill quest - naturally, every game has a bunch of these. The trick to 'ungeneric' them is to provide a solid backstory, good dialogue, maybe a twist mid-way through, and a handful of choices to complete them. Simply put, make them a bit more sophisticated (I've recently finished Deus Ex Human Revolution and was amazed by the brilliant side quests).

Actually, in the very core, the vast majority of main quests are based on a fetch/kill formula. They are just neatly wrapped and served with splendor. The same applies to side quests - if you wrap them in a nice layer, they will be appealing. If not, the genericness will emerge. Simple as that.

[Moirnelithe]

Some of those don't strike me as being hallmarks of traditional RPGs in the first place. I'll give you cinematic gameplay since early PCs couldn't handle it, but there are plenty of traditional RPGs with lots of fetch quests, no roleplaying diversity, and very few quests that let you flesh out your character's personality. BG1 comes to mind, for instance.

 

Please note that I said overabundance of redundant fetch quests. I do not deny there are fetch quests in traditional RPGs. However, when they make up the bulk of the game I think there is a problem. BG1 is an RPG I never liked very much, BG2, NWN: HoTU, NWN2, NWN2:MoTB, and VtM:Bloodlines are my personal favourites. I'm not particularly fond of Skyrim either.

 

I am still waiting for someone to tell me what stat allocation is available in any early crpg outside of the character creation screen. The only ones that come to my mind are TES and Fallout series which is based on SPECIAL. In the SPECIAL system the maximum value of an attribute was 9. Implants and certain perks were the only way to get it above that number in Fallout. No games based on the D & D ruleset had stat allocation or re-allocating outside of character creation. 

 

The only way to improve the stat scores was through equipment like DAI or using a wish or ioun stone (the last two being extremely rare).

 

If you want to say it did not have stat allocation like the first two DA games that is fine.  I just find the system used in DAI to be better.

 

Using equipment to augment attributes (stats) is nothing new. 

 

The fact that DAO had stat allocation on level up was because that was a feature borrowed from MMOs and TES along with regenerating health and mana. Some of the early crpgs did not even allow reallocating stats in character creation. The old Gold box games did not. You could re-roll to you hearts content until you got the numbers you wanted for that character.

 

In games like Alternate Reality that was not even possible unless you wanted to keep restarting the game to go through the stat allocation RNG gate.

 

Fetch, kill quests, escort and explore quests are in every crpg known. BG1 had them by the boat load especially fetch quests which you had to do or be under leveled. DAO even made a joke of it if you play the human noble. One of the first quests in BG1 is to go into a house and kill some rats. Ser Gilmore in DAO comments about killing rats that Dog finds in lauder in DAO.

 

Stat allocation at creation is still stat allocation, and more than we get in DA:I. Even by rerolling stats at creation I'd have some control over my stats, although I would prefer to allocate them manually from a pool. DA games keep taking away my control over my own character and it annoys me immensely. My character, my personality, my stats dangit. I want more choice, not less.

[Realmzmaster]

DAI allows raising stats using equipment and skills which is simply a different way of doing stat allocation. True choice would allow either system to be used, but that is usually not possible design wise or within a budget. I get to manually allocate stats using items found or crafted. I can also change the focus of characters in my party which cannot be done if one manually allocates the points. Once the points are allocated like in DAO or DA2 there is no way to change them.

 

If I want to change my warrior from strength based to dexterity based I can in DAI just by adjusting  or crafting different equipment. I could not do that in DAO or DA2. That IMHO gives me more flexibility.

[Realmzmaster]

Wizardry 8 (don't know about other installments though)

Diablo 1 & 2 (before you dismiss it as a mere hack'n'slash, think of the impact the series had on RPGs)

Nox

TES (as you mentioned)

Avernum saga 

Planescape Torment

Evil Island (has anyone played it? A bloody good game)

Divine Divinty (and presumably other Divinity games)

Arcanum of Steamworks and Magick Obscura

and probably quite a lot of other games, where 'level up' means 'more attributes/stats points to allocate'

 

Betrayal at Krondor and Jagged Alliance have attributes increasing the more you use them.

 

BG1 is certainly not akin to the Inquisition system of attributes, nor is any DnD-based game, where equipment only slightly improves your stats (and again, BG1 features only 4 stats increasing items), and they are pretty much defined during character's stats allocation.

In DA:I attributes are allocated automatically as you level up. Certain items can increase an attribute score. like the Axe of Green Edges, which gives +6 to willpower. In regards to BG series, +6 to any stat would be a substantial and overpowered boost (I'm looking at you improved Crom Faeyr). This is where differences between the two games are apparent - while +6 to willpower is nothing special really in DA:I, BG2's Crom Faeyr instant 25 strength is a game-balance breaker. The two systems differ, and I maintain, to compare them and claim they are similar is a stretch. 

 

Peace.

 

I had forgotten about some of those since I have not played them in a long time. 

Actually I would not dismiss Diablo since I liked playing Diablo I with Hellfire.

 

But from your list (I really do not know if there are more) the list is shorter compared to the number of crpgs that have been made.that do not allow for stat allocation outside of creation..

 

When I talk about comparison to BG1 I am talking about the basic design rather than the intricacies of the actually system. Of course a +6 willpower in BG1 would be huge, but then BG1 and by extension D & D does not allow an attribute over 18 without special circumstances, hence equipment  using +1 or +2 and on rare occasions +3 and +4. or paladin swords (holy avenger) that give +5 against evil (if a paladin) +2 otherwise.. DAO and DA2 along with many of the others on your list can reach high attribute numbers so comparison has to be made relative to the base maximum

[Realmzmaster]

And regarding fetch/kill quest - naturally, every game has a bunch of these. The trick to 'ungeneric' them is to provide a solid backstory, good dialogue, maybe a twist mid-way through, and a handful of choices to complete them. Simply put, make them a bit more sophisticated (I've recently finished Deus Ex Human Revolution and was amazed by the brilliant side quests).

Actually, in the very core, the vast majority of main quests are based on a fetch/kill formula. They are just neatly wrapped and served with splendor. The same applies to side quests - if you wrap them in a nice layer, they will be appealing. If not, the genericness will emerge. Simple as that.

 

I agree, but wrapper it is in is subjective depending on the gamer. One gamer may have enough story that the fetch quest is not generic whereas for another gamer it may not be enough.

For example I will use the ram meat quest that has become the poster child for DAI quests. In my case it was enough that the hunter could not hunt and the refugees were straving. Since my party is exploring the Hinterlands it is a simple task to gather the meat and bring it back. The hunter thanks me and now has a favorable impression of the Inquisition whereas he did not have before. I have influenced someone who can pass on my act of kindness to others. If you listen closely do the refugees you can even hear that story repeated.

 

For other gamers that may not be enough. I have no problem with that. The problem I do have is when posters want to dismiss what I think and not see or want to consider my side of the argument even if you disagree with it.

 

I believe in stating my case and will give consideration to an opposing opinion. Some of the posters on this forum do not give the same consideration. For example you state an opposing view in a logical civil manner and I respect that even if we have to agree to disagree. You state a case I can consider rather than just dismissing what I say.

[AlanC9]

Please note that I said overabundance of redundant fetch quests. I do not deny there are fetch quests in traditional RPGs. However, when they make up the bulk of the game I think there is a problem. BG1 is an RPG I never liked very much, BG2, NWN: HoTU, NWN2, NWN2:MoTB, and VtM:Bloodlines are my personal favourites. I'm not particularly fond of Skyrim either.

I was just pointing out that several of the things listed aren't hallmarks of traditional RPGs under any rational definition of "traditional RPG," since so many traditional RPGs don't have those features. I'm not saying that you ought to like games without those features; I like those features myself, in fact.

Looking at scrutinizer's list upthread, are we calling Arcanum an "early RPG" now? God, I'm old.

[pasmith31]

I'm probably going to get stoned for this but DA2 is still my favorite in the Dragon Age Series aside from it's flawed elements.

 

Though I'd really Love for Bioware to go back and restore Shattered Steel and make it more in line with today's tech it's still one of my all time favorite games.

I tend to agree with you, I really enjoyed DA2 and the issue most people has with it, being the reuse of areas didn't bother me at all.

 

@ the OP The big publishers want to release fewer games each year to cut costs, so each year I think we can expect all the AAA games trying to reach as many people as possible so more Titanfall and Destiny type games with marketing budgets as big if not bigger than the development budget and few if any niche games like DAO even if they can sell a few million copies. But on the bright side a few independents are filling the gap I just hope those independents don't sellout to the big publishers anytime soon.

[Sidney]

DAI allows raising stats using equipment and skills which is simply a different way of doing stat allocation. True choice would allow either system to be used, but that is usually not possible design wise or within a budget. I get to manually allocate stats using items found or crafted. I can also change the focus of characters in my party which cannot be done if one manually allocates the points. Once the points are allocated like in DAO or DA2 there is no way to change them.

 

If I want to change my warrior from strength based to dexterity based I can in DAI just by adjusting  or crafting different equipment. I could not do that in DAO or DA2. That IMHO gives me more flexibility.

 

 

Oddly stat manipulation is actually more flexible than in other games because it can be changed with items and driven by skills. Just like DA2 allowed more customization via runes than DAO did via slapping on armor and people wouldn't not stop about how they couldn't customize companions in DA2. You figure even if DAI had gone with add a stat point every how ever many levels KOTOR had it wouldn't be "enough" just like magic is simple in DAI despite the fact that it has more skills than "traditional RPG KOTOR had for force powers. This is about form not function, appearance and not substance.

[mLIQUID]

saying it's broken because it's too hard to bind a few keys and set some sensitivity. For those on PC format you should be entirely ashamed for saying it's broken. trouble is that all that blabbering about the elements that are perfectly fine take away from refining the game in a positive way. So instead of becoming a series that's more complex.. you take the opinion of the bottom of the barrel and dumb the only true rpg to a console paint by numbers adventure. So all your flailing ruins any chance we get a quality series moving forward. THe camera the camera the camera... it's fine... learn some control over your UI... mouse and keyboard is a freakin grande piano and a light saber combined.

[otis0310]

I tend to agree with you, I really enjoyed DA2 and the issue most people has with it, being the reuse of areas didn't bother me at all.

 

@ the OP The big publishers want to release fewer games each year to cut costs, so each year I think we can expect all the AAA games trying to reach as many people as possible so more Titanfall and Destiny type games with marketing budgets as big if not bigger than the development budget and few if any niche games like DAO even if they can sell a few million copies. But on the bright side a few independents are filling the gap I just hope those independents don't sellout to the big publishers anytime soon.

 

 

To me this sounds like a recipe for disaster.  The simple truth is that not all people like the same things so there is no such thing as  being able to reach everybody.  This is the main reason why genres were created to begin with, because some like RPGs some action games, and some like strategy games.  But to try to make each and every game a smash hit in such a way is sure fire path to bankruptcy. 

 

You know the old saying, "If you try to make everyone happy, you end up making nobody happy." DAI is a prime example of this.

 

Given how EA is leading the industry into making every single game dumbed down, I think we are on the verge of another Computer Game Crash, just like what happened it 1983.  For those who know their history, they know what I am talking about, for those who don't you can look it up.

[mLIQUID]

there's plenty of simple minded experiences out there not to ruin something good. Maybe you should take ownership of the fact that you aren't very good at the game, maybe it's something you'll need help with. Why not start there? The camera isn't broken because you can't control it. I do it fine. Maybe you need help and less crying. It's much easier to jump on a bandwagon and look for the answers that support your tears than to actually seek out solutions. I made tutorial for all the keybindings... it's true that doesn't teach you all you need, but quite frankly that should've been your post.

 

Bioware, teach us how to do this. Not bioware, fix what I don't understand.

[Bioware-Critic]

there's plenty of simple minded experiences out there not to ruin something good. Maybe you should take ownership of the fact that you aren't very good at the game, maybe it's something you'll need help with. Why not start there? The camera isn't broken because you can't control it. I do it fine. Maybe you need help and less crying. It's much easier to jump on a bandwagon and look for the answers that support your tears than to actually seek out solutions. I made tutorial for all the keybindings... it's true that doesn't teach you all you need, but quite frankly that should've been your post.

 

Bioware, teach us how to do this. Not bioware, fix what I don't understand.

 

The camera is a disaster! It is a joke - a katastrophy - GARBAGE!

 

Maybe you need higher standards?

 

No offense, but EVERYONE is different ...

[scrutinizer]

If I want to change my warrior from strength based to dexterity based I can in DAI just by adjusting  or crafting different equipment. I could not do that in DAO or DA2. That IMHO gives me more flexibility.

Does it really allow for such a drastic change? 

In DA:O you could change your build (to an extent) by the same means - equipment (Drakeskin armor set, Starfang, Duncan's Dagger, Harvest Festival Ring; that's easily +10 dexterity [Drakeskin set and Duncan's Dagger alone are +8 dexterity]). You could also spend all your attribute points on dexterity from a given point on. In a matter of few level you can get yourself a dexterity build.

 

 

But from your list (I really do not know if there are more) the list is shorter compared to the number of crpgs that have been made.that do not allow for stat allocation outside of creation..

(...)

DAO and DA2 along with many of the others on your list can reach high attribute numbers so comparison has to be made relative to the base maximum

True, but that's because a lot of those early cRPGs were based on DnD.

True, though I do believe that any DA game allows for a far better stats manipulation than BG games (relatively).

 

I agree, but wrapper it is in is subjective depending on the gamer. One gamer may have enough story that the fetch quest is not generic whereas for another gamer it may not be enough.

Indeed. However, the point I try to make (and perhaps others) is that the quality of the quests are an issue. I understand that a certain group of players finds nothing wrong with these quests (and that's fine), yet there is another group (and I think it's far from minor) which is vocal about the lack of quality and that it's becoming a tendency in Bioware games. This is alarming. 

 

You figure even if DAI had gone with add a stat point every how ever many levels KOTOR had it wouldn't be "enough" just like magic is simple in DAI despite the fact that it has more skills than "traditional RPG KOTOR had for force powers. This is about form not function, appearance and not substance.

Magic, you say? I don't know. KOTOR is pretty bare when it comes to powers (meaning skills or spells). The last I've checked DA:O allowed me to fill up my quickbar with as many spells as I knew. 

DA:O features 4 main schools of magic, each divided into 4 more subgroups, each subgroup having 4 spells. That's 16 spells for each main school. 64 spell in general. Add to this another 16 spells coming from specializations and 2 more from arcane mastery. I'm not good at math, but that's a total of 82 spells at your disposal (vanilla game). I bring two mages into the fray and have ~50 spells at my disposal each battle. This is about both form and function, substance and subsequent appearance. 

Take two mages with you in Inquisition and you have 16 spells. But let's forget about the limiting 8-slot-quickbar and take a look at the amount of spells in general. 4 main schools, each having 4 active spells (so you actually cast them), apart from Winter mastery which has 5 spells. That's 17 spells. 3 specialization classes are available, each giving you 4 active spells; a total of 12. That's 29 spells in the game. My Warden alone can cast more. 

 

Peace.

[mLIQUID]

watch me play and then talk... I have 20 years of pc under my belt. It fine. can I crash into a wall if I tried yeah... same holds true if I drive a car.... idk maybe your sensitivity is way too high. I can make the camera follow backwards at ground lvl 2 warriors charging bull toward their enemy. Then I can turn around and zoom out. I can rotate slowly around a mage who looks like darth maul in battle then set up a final killcam on a rogue with dual daggers. There's missing elements like the final killcam.. but those are things that get lost under people stuck in the mountainside crashing into trees. SO yeah... my standards are just fine.

[Dakota Strider]

I cannot accept the argument that eariler versions of Bioware games like the BG series and NwN series are similar to DAI, because they "did not allow you to allocate the ability scores of the protagonist except for at character creation".  That is a very huge exception.  Being able to adjust starting ability scores, allows the player to be in control of the development and is the most important decision in a character's "career" path.

 

If you were to purchase a new computer, would you rather have it built from scratch, with exactly the components you want added to it, or would you prefer to go to a large retail store, and pick one off the shelf?  One choice allows you to have complete control over every decision that goes to building that computer.  The other decision will give you a machine that is probably adequate, but very generic, and built to please the lowest common denominator in consumer demographics at that price point.  

 

I do not think it matters what the product is, most people would prefer to have the one that allows them to be in control of as many choices as possible in its construction.  Does not matter if is computers, automobiles, pizzas or...rpg characters.

 

And, once you have your custom made product...if there are any upgrades to be made...would you not wish to be the one that decides what is added?

 

In almost every instance, it feels like choices have been removed from us in DAI.  Instead of "my" character that I am in control of, it feels as if I have been handed a carbon copy of what everyone else is playing with.  By removing so many choices in character development, player ownership has been diminished.  That is one of the more important reasons why this latest Bioware games seems to lack something.  It feels flat...uninspired.  And I for one, do not feel the same involvement in the main character, or the story within which he is part of, as I have with past titles.

[Realmzmaster]

@scrutinizer.

 

Yes DAI does allow for that radical of a change. In fact I have two sets of armor for my rogue: one dexterity based which gives the character a swing of +15 in dexterity over the base and another than gives +15 cunning over the base. I can swapped them changing the rogue from dexterity to cunning base. For my warriors I have armor sets that can change from constitution base to strength based with a swing of +12 over the base.. So my warrior can go from (let say that ten is the base) +22 strength to +22 constitution within the same level. Your example would require me to place stats over a number of levels to change the desired attribute. You can also craft armor as you progress in the game that allows for bigger swings. I just got some armor schematics that allow that to happen.

[Realmzmaster]

I cannot accept the argument that eariler versions of Bioware games like the BG series and NwN series are similar to DAI, because they "did not allow you to allocate the ability scores of the protagonist except for at character creation".  That is a very huge exception.  Being able to adjust starting ability scores, allows the player to be in control of the development and is the most important decision in a character's "career" path.

 

If you were to purchase a new computer, would you rather have it built from scratch, with exactly the components you want added to it, or would you prefer to go to a large retail store, and pick one off the shelf?  One choice allows you to have complete control over every decision that goes to building that computer.  The other decision will give you a machine that is probably adequate, but very generic, and built to please the lowest common denominator in consumer demographics at that price point.  

 

I do not think it matters what the product is, most people would prefer to have the one that allows them to be in control of as many choices as possible in its construction.  Does not matter if is computers, automobiles, pizzas or...rpg characters.

 

And, once you have your custom made product...if there are any upgrades to be made...would you not wish to be the one that decides what is added?

 

In almost every instance, it feels like choices have been removed from us in DAI.  Instead of "my" character that I am in control of, it feels as if I have been handed a carbon copy of what everyone else is playing with.  By removing so many choices in character development, player ownership has been diminished.  That is one of the more important reasons why this latest Bioware games seems to lack something.  It feels flat...uninspired.  And I for one, do not feel the same involvement in the main character, or the story within which he is part of, as I have with past titles.

 

It would depend on the opportunity cost. Let's take your computer analogy. Getting the computer from the large retail store may require me to sacrifice some control, but if it runs the software I need then that choice may be a good one. 

 

I have to factor in what it takes me to build the computer in terms of time, resources and money. The opportunity cost comes in when I could be putting that time (which includes building it and testing everything), resources and money to better use elsewhere. It would have to be much cheaper to build that computer in terms of my time, resources and money than it is for me to buy it. Also not everyone has that option when real life concerns take control of that time.

 

DAI allows me to change the build of my character within the same level by changing the equipment.  The  D & D system allows for flexibility at character creation, but then becomes more inflexible after that.

 

BG1 require upfront planning of the character while DAI's system allows for planning of the character over time . it also allows for changing the focus of the character if one chooses.

 

The DAI system allows me to craft equipment that can change the stats after character creation and within the same character level.