293 réponses à ce sujet

[Reymoose]

It really sucks being a console player and reading these forums, sometimes. It's always PC gamers either saying "whoo master race" when things go their way, or "booo console players ruin it for the rest of us" otherwise.

 

Jebus. Gamers are gamers. If a game works best on a console, particularly one from a series you've loved for years, buy a freaking console.

 

The thing is Mes, the vast majority of PC exclusive players don't say "PC Master Race" stuff at all, that's just troll-baiting.The PC is objectively a better platform for hardware, there's no debate, at least until you're able to customize/build your console.

 

The thing is when a game is built from the bottom up (or top down) from PC, consoles and PC benefit from it. 

 

Years ago, some PC (I forget which but the general idea of a lot of keybinds being used unnecessarily) games had different keys for interacting with different things, like press "E" to open a lock, and press "F" to talk to an npc, when there should've been just one "Interact" key, and consoles helped bring the streamlining of input to games in general.

 

So that way, consoles helped make games on PC more friendly, and frankly, fun to play. 

 

The other side of the coin is games developed with the PC in mind not only play better on consoles but having the complexity of translating lots of skills/abilities/keybinds to a radial menu helped give depth to a lot of consoles that frankly were inundated with platformers, fighting games and action games with JRPG companies the only alternative that consoles saw.

 

Take Diablo 3 for example (as much as some people don't like it), right now, it's a *great* PC game, *and* it's a *great* console game, because both experiences are different, and of equal quality because the time was spent to make sure both camps got great games period.

 

That whole argument of PC. vs. Console is invalid, simply develop for the platform you're releasing on and do the best job you can.

 

Edit: And I should say, this isn't a console vs. pc thread anyway and we shouldn't go into detail about this 'cause . On topic, I added my responses in 'Bioware's worst game ever' thread, sadly many of my posts were flagged as insults by a particular user and removed.

[Dakota Strider]

In regards to the concern about my download times; my peak download speed might reach 350 kbps.  If I am lucky, I will average between 200-250 kbps.  However, during that download, there were many times when it almost stalled out at under 100 kbps.  Spoke to a tech from our phone company just today in regards to try to speed up our connection.  He believes the problem is that the hub that we are tied into, is maxed out in regards to how many customers it services, so when everyone tries to logon, it really starts to drag.  We are about 1 1/2 miles outside the range of cable, so we just have to breath our fresh air and suffer.

[Lianaar]

 

But I don't honestly know how the digital game sales are and if they influenced a lot of the ratio? Could anyone clarify?

Everyone I know, which is very small compared to the general target audience, only has digital copies.

[StrangeStrategy]

No, the thread is not about console vs PC!

 

It is about all the stuff you are probably thinking about too! Just spill the beans and be pleasantly surprised

 

It was just a common misunderstanding and the OP clarified on that. He even edited his first posting!

 

So, ... let's hear it, StrangeStrategy ...  what have you got on your agenda that concerns you about DA:I?

 

Posting links never loads for me, so if you actually want to see the huge point-form list of things that annoy me in the game, I'm on page two of the "single most frustrating aspect of the game - air your grievance!" with about 35 little things that annoy me such as "removal of tactics" and "Sera"
 

[Lianaar]

@ Bioware-Critic
I didn't say you can not ask for it. I said, it is not reasonable to expect it provided the new niche pays more.

It still is good to express what exactly you value, because the more niches overlap, or the more one niche's happiness is not considerably affecting the other niche's enjoyment, the best thing to do is being very explicit and precise in what you want (but stripping the general terms as complex, good, nice, engaging etc) the more likely you'll get it.

 

Like. I prefer a more personal story, where the introduction gives a core motivation for the character.
I don't care if game stages are not affected by my choices as long as the interpersonal relations and the dialogue strings remain the same.
I am pretty happy with 3 maps, I am not bothered by reused environment as long as those are not npcs. I dislike reused npcs for they are the focus to me.

I suck at fights at first no matter what, and it takes me time to get used to controls. What those controls are matters nothign to me. It is always the same pattern in getting used to is. So they are free to alter it as much as they like.

Did I just describe DA2? Probably yes. I realise this is a niche, I am probably minority player.

 

Listing the spices you enjoy in your pie might get you what you want. Maybe I am very optimistic, but I do enjoy a proactive approach in the forums.

 

I find it hard to play on consoles, but I'll attempt for our console version is not affected by party banter issue, so there we go: new set of ui to learn

[Lee T]

But, DA2 showed, that Bioware was starting to take the PC market for granted, and was spending more time trying to build a game that appealed to the console players. More flash, simpler controls, fewer choices, and going from a realistic style of combat

You had me up to this. I played DAO on consoles has did many of my friends and... we never asked for this.

Funnily enough the most steadfast supporter of bioware games in my neck of the wook does play on PC.

People aren't what they game on.

The guy who has a console and buy his copy of madden and call of duty every year is not that different from the guy who has a PC to play Candy crush on facebook. Both won't be much interested in Bioware's offer.

EDIT part deux: At the request of my many fans (okay, critics), I should clarify that I am not attempting to blame all problems on console gamers (as tempting as that may be.) Obviously, I am complaining that the game is being dumbed down, by the standards I have come to expect from Bioware games. This does not mean, because somebody else enjoys the aspects of the game, that I do not, that they are wrong, nor are they dumb. Different tastes for different folks, and it has nothing to do with IQ. Bioware used to make games for a very unique niche of the gaming market. This niche audience may not be the largest portion of the audience, but it is still substantial. Now, they seem to be trying to please everyone, by making so many changes, that in the end, they are pleasing less people. The company that I have been so loyal to, seems now to be succumbing to the attitude that they should the market the game to many different styles of gamers. But, it is impossible to make a game that pleases everyone. Bioware needs to decide who their target market is, and make games just for them. If they decide it is no longer the CRPGer, then they will lose a lot of their loyal customers, and we will spend our money with companies that do cater to us.

So close, but still not there, you still assume that people playing on PC or consoles do not have the same expectations.

Remind yourself what you think of Bioware, this is what most of us want. We do not want to play a PC game or a console games, we're here because we want to play a Bioware game, on different platforms.

Bioware like every company are trying to capture a larger audience. Unfortunately they do not play to their strength, story and characterisation. You can catch people with those two alone as did many TV show and movies.

What they have to to (and it's a hard work) is to work on UI, seamless tutorials, efficient learning curve, to take people interested in their story by the hand and guide them through the mechanics of RPG. Which is easier now since pretty much anybody who played a videogame as experienced some of it as RPG mechanics have been ransacked for parts by pretty much the whole gaming industry. They shouldn't focus on the mechanics itself as much as how it's used and taught in the game.

Bioware has the potential to do RPGs that touch people deeper than games like Walking Dead or The Last of Us did. When people sums up those game, they do not talk about epic battles, or inventory management, they talk about moment they were moved. When people hear this stories they want to try the game, they do not ask about the gameplay. And that's how they sold a ton of those.

[Bioware-Critic]

Everyone I know, which is very small compared to the general target audience, only has digital copies.

 

I switched to digital too and also put a SSD into my Playstation for faster loading times. But I have no clue how high the sales numbers are for digital copies of DA compared to the vgchartz.com lists I posted here.

[Bioware-Critic]

Posting links never loads for me, so if you actually want to see the huge point-form list of things that annoy me in the game, I'm on page two of the "single most frustrating aspect of the game - air your grievance!" with about 35 little things that annoy me such as "removal of tactics" and "Sera"
 

 

Thanks for pointing me to that thread. I gave you a like over there. It is a fine list - why not discuss it here?!

[Eralrik]

A good game for me has compelling companions that grip you and you can call them friends and then the sudden loss of that friend causes you to feel their loss in the team.

For me and this may sound silly was the First Wing Commander loosing Spirit or Knight out on a patrol then suddenly went south and you loose your copilot but you make back to the carrier barely because your ship is practically falling apart then the funeral would always choke me up.

 

I really haven't felt that way in a game in a long time I did mourn Thane's passing in ME3 and I felt bad the first time I had to make a choice to leave either Ashley or Kaiden, need more of these moments not just a passing we'll miss him/ her but something impactful to really grab you an not let go.

[teks]

This isn't why people are complaining about DAI at all. This is a general complaint about the trends of the entire gaming industry. Trends which have been set in motion around a decade ago. Its just not a reason to single out one title, because its true for all titles.

 

I totally agree with the complaint though. I play mostly older games, or heavily-modded games to avoid the dumbing down of games.

 

EDIT: Just to speak on some of the other sentiment I see in the replies. I don't think this dumbing down trend is related to consoles at all. Consoles and computers are no different. the PC just has a little more flexibility.

[Bioware-Critic]

"It still is good to express what exactly you value, because the more niches overlap, or the more one niche's happiness is not considerably affecting the other niche's enjoyment, the best thing to do is being very explicit and precise in what you want (but stripping the general terms as complex, good, nice, engaging etc) the more likely you'll get it."

 

Well I think that the more niches the devs are trying to hit the less room they have to maneuver, somehow ...

At one point or another they will compromise important things because they are trying to achieve too much! And in the end they will have created ...

"a jerk of all trades and a master of none"

But I was so much hoping for something that is very good in many areas and not something that is avarage at best in almost any area I can think of to cross my favorite title with ... UGH!

I really don't want to hold Bioware back in any case and I love to be surprised by them! But I am a "polish and quality first" kind of guy

I really could have done with less areas, less fetch quests, less shards ... and instead would really like to have more complexity and so on!

[teks]

Well I think that the more niches the devs are trying to hit the less room they have to maneuver, somehow ...

At one point or another they will compromise important things because they are trying to achieve too much! And in the end they will have created ...

"a jerk of all trades and a master of none"

But I was so much hoping for something that is very good in many areas and not something that is avarage at best in almost any area I can think of to cross my favorite title with ... UGH!

I really don't want to hold Bioware back in any case and I love to be surprised by them! But I am a "polish and quality first" kind of guy

I really could have done with less areas, less fetch quests, less shards ... and instead would really like to have more complexity and so on!

I'm hoping they make a mod that cuts that stuff right out.

[Bioware-Critic]

I'm hoping they make a mod that cuts that stuff right out.

Sadly, as a console player I have no access to mods, but I am right with you there!

 

And no matter what - there will be a ton of mods for this game! I would even go this far as to say: No matter what they tell us regarding mods from the official side, they want us to make as many mods for this game as possible! And if you PC guys are lucky, Bioware will support mods a lot more with the next installment ...

 

*crosses fingers*

[Owlbear]

@Nerfla & Autumn Crowe:  I too, have problems with many parts of the story, and development of npc's, and other roleplay aspects.  But, as I have stated in other threads, this comes from Bioware attempting to do too much, with either not enough resources, not enough time, or both.  Which does tie into this thread, because I believe Bioware, by trying to make so many changes, to try to tempt more people to buy their games, the quality of the game suffers. 

 

Solution:  Bioware, go back to trying to make games for the niche audience that you gained your reputation with.  Spend the time perfecting the aspects of the game that made your past games popular, and stop trying to copy every other popular game that is in the market, in the hopes of a few more sales.  A smaller, happier customer base, will net you far more sales in the long run, than chasing after customers that will try the product once, and decide its not for them.

 

A game for a niche market would have to be developed on a niche budget. Suppose you designed a game that you thought 100,000 people would be interested in playing, and they would be willing to pay $100 for the game (niche products command a price premium). That gives you $10 million to work with. I don’t know what the expected gross profit margin is for a successful game, but let’s say it’s 25%, which gives you $8 million to develop the game with an expected $2 million in gross profit. $8 million is probably around 10-20% or so of what DAI actually cost to develop and market. If you’re targeting a small, concentrated, well-defined audience, you probably don’t have to spend a lot on marketing, but we’re still talking about a very small budget compared to what modern games cost.

 

Would you really be willing to pay around double the price for a game that had to cut huge corners in order to come in on budget just for something that appealed directly to you, me and a small number of other gamers? I’ve critiqued the way that the story elements and role-playing aspects came together, and I think that Bioware could have done better with the same resources, but the reason that I am able to play a game with first-rate (or at least upper second-rate) graphics, sound, voice acting, and other production values, that also has traditional roleplaying aspects is that there are lots of people who aren’t like you and me who are also willing to plunk down $60 to play the game for aspects that maybe we don’t care so much about or even dislike. Their money is worth just as much as ours, but they outnumber us and we are effectively parasites: getting most but not all of what we want because their money subsidizes what we’d probably never be willing to pay for all on our own.

 

I enjoyed playing Ultima IV in 1985, but that was created by Richard Garriott and a handful of other people over a period of a year or two. DAI took many hundreds of people to make over an even longer timeframe. A copy of Ultima IV cost the equivalent of about $100 in today’s money to buy, but I doubt that I’d spend $10 on a similar game today. I’d expect more even from a $1.99 iOS app. Granted, developers can do a lot more today on a given budget than the could when games were hand-coded in assembly and then painstakingly ported to other platforms by re-writing them from scratch, but there is still a limit to what anyone can do with a small development budget.

[Dakota Strider]

@Lee T:  "So close..."    Sorry to leave you hanging.  Perhaps I am still retaining some bitterness of reading all the posts in the past and present about how consoles are taking over the world.  That is despite a console's flaws, compared to a PC.  It tends to bring out the Grumpy in me.  And besides Bioware spreading themselves thin, trying to please so many different styles of game play, all in one package, some of the main changes I have seen in the game, like action combat style, seems to have its roots in console games.  So forgive me, if I have some long held beliefs of what console games are.  I will concede that it is possible that not everyone that plays console games dislikes old style, Bioware CRPGs.

[Dakota Strider]

@Owlbear:  Dragon Age Origins has sold over 2.5 million units.  That is a very large niche market, and one that would justify a AAA budget.  Just because the audience that prefers old style CRPG's may have specialty tastes, does not mean it is tiny.

[Merlik]

If they just added walk toggle it would add 5 points to my score of the game.....

[JCFR]

OP - My thanks and deepest respect for eloquently pointing out all of my own thoughts and worries concerning Bioware.
In my opinion, you're 100% right and i wished your words would reach even the highest ranks of this company i once held so dear.

It's sad seeing how much Bioware changed in retrospective and i still hope for them to turn the corner... but the chances are diminishing.

[Owlbear]

@Owlbear:  Dragon Age Origins has sold over 2.5 million units.  That is a very large niche market, and one that would justify a AAA budget.  Just because the audience that prefers old style CRPG's may have specialty tastes, does not mean it is tiny.

 

That's true enough, but I was responding to the admonition that Bioware should "go back to trying to make games for the niche audience that [they] gained [their] reputation with."

 

If two and a half million people would reliably pay $60 for a specific kind of game, I'm confident someone would step forward and spend tens of millions of dollars to claim that $150 million prize. Bioware is not the only company capable of designing a game like DAO, at least not for that kind of cash. If there were two and a half million people who all agreed exactly what made DAO great and DAI fall short of its predecessor then there would probably be some pretty serious note-taking going on at Bioware right now. But I don't think that's what we're seeing. I think we're seeing a wide variety of complaints, with lots of people accusing Bioware of committing unspeakable sins, but no universal agreement in what those sins are. There are lots of different complaints, each shared by only a subset of complainants. Moreover, if Bioware had released DAO all over again, is it more likely that the critics would have been overjoyed, or that they would be unhappy that, after six years, we got a retread of the same game, maybe with updated graphics but no fixing of the problems that we had identified? It's easy to say, "make another DAO but better." It's a lot harder to do.

 

Telling a company what you want is fine. It's more than fine: consumers communicating what they want to producers makes it more likely that the producer will offer the product it's customers want rather than the one they mistakenly believed they wanted. But companies also know that customers make all kinds of poorly-thought out demands all the time, and they know that letting your customer design the product is a good way to end up with a terrible product that nobody will buy (Master of Orion 3 comes to mind) so customer feedback has to be balanced against the expert opinion of designers and marketers. At the end of the day, the ultimate way to show your approval or disapproval of a product is to buy it or not buy it. This in turn can require a certain amount of restraint, such as not pre-ordering it and waiting until some of the more credible reviews and analyses come in.

[Dakota Strider]

I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I would have paid $100 for DAO 2.  Exact same engine, perhaps with the old bugs cleaned up, same combat system, same character classes.  New maps, new npcs, new story.  Obviously, not everyone would have.  But, since we are speaking about money, how much would Bioware have saved if they had not tried to reinvent the wheel, and used tried and trued game mechanics, engine, etc?  Even if they had sold less units, would not have their profit margin been much higher, considering much of the hard work was done over 5 years ago.  And why stop with just one sequel?  If the engine and mechanics remain the same, and the only thing that changes is the story and the maps, how fast could they produce a game?  I do not think a new game every holiday season is out of the question.  Even if the niche market is a bit smaller than what they are attempting to reach now, would not the repeat sales, every 12 months by far exceed what they are trying for now? 

 

Food for thought.

[katokires]

This thread is dedicated to the those that complain about those of us that complain about the game.  For whatever reason you love DLI DAI and just cannot stand the thought that other people do not share your love of the game, and need to attack its critics, and belittle the concerns of those that post in the forums with the problems we have with Bioware's latest game.

 

Granted, I do not claim to speak for everyone.  Nobody, on either side can do that.  What I am presenting is anecdotal evidence (meaning the experiences of myself and friends).  Not everyone has the exact same experiences, but from what I have read in the last six weeks on these forums, many people do. 

 

Since my first computer, almost 30 years ago, I have played many games.  Played a lot of good and great games.  Have played some real stinkers.  Normally, if I get a bad game, I just forget about it.  All I have really lost is a relatively small amount of money, and perhaps several evenings or a weekend of my time.  Probably did not buy a game from that company again, either.  But, I really did not have anything invested in that company.  So, I never bothered to go to those companies' websites/forums/fansites and make my displeasure known.  Not worth the trouble.

 

But, Bioware is not one of those companies.  As many of us have, I have been playing their games for almost two decades now.  I have over $500 of their titles on my shelves, and if you include downloads, probably a total of $1000 that I have "invested" in their company.  Even more importantly, I have easily spent thousands upon thousands of hours playing Bioware games.  And Bioware was not just a game company, they have gone out of their way in the past (and hopefully still do) to make their customers feel like part of the community, and not just a paycheck.   It was a symbiotic relationship, where Bioware put out the best CRPG's available, bringing to "life" on the computer what a great tabletop rpg or fantasy novel could only make you imagine.  And in return, Bioware gained a very loyal fanbase that bought almost every title they produced.  With this support, Bioware kept creating bigger and better games, that kept the formula of combining a tactical combat system with a great role play experience,  Not saying there were never complaints, but they were relatively small. 

 

With the release of Dragon Age Origins, the main complaints (besides the inevitable technical bugs) came from the console community, that complained that their game systems were unable to do all the many things that PC owners of the game could do.  Personally, I thought it was rather silly that they would attempt to play such a complex CRPG on a platform, other than a computer.  At the time, it did not really bother me that Bioware was porting their flagship game to consoles.  Figured it was more money for them, that would allow them to build even bigger and better games for the PC, as technology allowed.  So, I was still secure in the "relationship".

 

But, DA2 showed, that Bioware was starting to take the PC market for granted, and was spending more time trying to build a game that appealed to the console players.  More flash, simpler controls, fewer choices, and going from a realistic style of combat (yes....I know that a game based around magic, is not "realistic", but the beauty of most fantasy swords and sorcery systems is that you do everything just like you would do normally...with the addition of magic) to a more arcade style combat, where every character class jumps and leaps, doing stunts that are normally only possible with hidden wires in Hollywood.  It may have made for a more visually appealing game (for some audiences), but it really started to gut what was always the heart of a CRPG, a tactical combat system that had great roleplay aspects.  As I have stated elsewhere, it was akin to having your partner leaving you, for a bimbo that was impressed with pretty graphics and flashy animations, and was bored or frustrated when confronted with a tactical rpg.

 

With the release of DLI DAI, it has become even more clear, that Bioware has stopped making a game that took advantage of all the possibilities that a game on a PC platform can provide, and then port everything it could to the consoles.  Instead, they are making games that do everything within the limitations of a console, and then port that to the PC.  So, while the console gamers are able to have a game that does everything their platform allows, PC players have a game that is figuratively having our platform play with one hand behinds its back. 

 

So yes, I complain.  I try to do so as constructively, and with as much decorum as possible.  But I do so because I care about this company, and do not want to see it continue down this path.  If this was just another gaming company, that produced a game I did not like, I would not bother.  But this is a company I have supported over many years, and I now see it spurning that support and going about destroying the legacy it has built during that time.  I feel obligated to try to make my voice heard.  Obviously, there is some self-interest involved.  But, it is also because I do not want Bioware to become just another run-of-the-mill game company that pumps out clones of other games, that all look and play alike.  Bioware games used to stand out, and now they try to copy whatever the latest trend is, in an attempt to gain market share.  What's next, Dragon Age: Angry Birds? 

 

To sum it up, I complain because I care.

 

 

EDIT (After spending 38 hours downloading this game, not counting the patches, obviously, I still have DownLoad on my mind.  And I thought I did such a good job of editing this before posting)

 

EDIT part deux:  At the request of my many fans (okay, critics), I should clarify that I am not attempting to blame all problems on console gamers (as tempting as that may be.)  Obviously, I am complaining that the game is being dumbed down, by the standards I have come to expect from Bioware games.  This does not mean, because somebody else enjoys the aspects of the game, that I do not, that they are wrong, nor are they dumb.  Different tastes for different folks, and it has nothing to do with IQ.  Bioware used to make games for a very unique niche of the gaming market.  This niche audience may not be the largest portion of the audience, but it is still substantial.  Now, they seem to be trying to please everyone, by making so many changes, that in the end, they are pleasing less people.  The company that I have been so loyal to, seems now to be succumbing to the attitude that they should the market the game to many different styles of gamers.  But, it is impossible to make a game that pleases everyone.  Bioware needs to decide who their target market is, and make games just for them.  If they decide it is no longer the CRPGer, then they will lose a lot of their loyal customers, and we will spend our money with companies that do cater to us.

One of the reasons I use this account so recklessly is that because there is no point in trying to explain anything for people who love Inquisition because they will always answer:

1. Nostalgia. Get over. Wouldn't work. Old.

2. Not everybody is a D&D player, fat, virgin, nerd.

3. I played BG2 and I love Inquisition.

4. Use a controller.

5. Leave Hinterlands.

6. Skip content. Play only what you like.

7. You don't need to do it all in one playthrough.

 

But ultimately it is a lot more simple: It is the first Bioware RPG I need strategy to bear the disgusting feeling of playing it. The older ones I had to impose self-rules so that I would not die in front of the PC playing them. ALL BEFORE Inquisition. Even DA2. (Note that for me Mass Effect is a shooter and Jade Empire is action, so I'm not couting them.) So well, yeah, people can argue, argue away, despite they believing game is a huge success most people I know that liked old Bioware games stop caring after DA2, the rest quit with/after DAI. I'm literally the only one of my friends still with Bioware, I mean, I was. Hope they enjoy their new player base.

[10K]

You shouldn't care about a company, because they couldn't care less about you. BW isn't BW anymore it's EAware. The core of BW is gone making other games or living their lives. What we have here is a company whom is a shell of it's former self, and only care about what EA cares about. The bottom line, your cash in your wallet.

[Rawgrim]

If they just added walk toggle it would add 5 points to my score of the game.....

 

Have you done that fun quest where you have to walk around a column 3 times while being in contact with it all the way? Its to summon a demon, or something. A walk toggle would have saved me 20 minutes on that one.

[metatheurgist]

Totally get what you're saying OP, but you're spitting in the wind. Bioware is a business entity that exists solely to make money. It wants to make as much money as possible. To achieve this it does whatever it thinks it needs to do to make more money, even if it's a really dumb thing like moving away from a core loyal audience that will lap up what they make in the hopes of getting a bigger audience by making the same generic crap that everyone else is making. You're not going to convince them with forum posts. The "geniuses" in business and marketing are all sure they can be the one on top the biggest mountain with the biggest slice of the market even though they're all killing each other for the same slice. Nothing you say will sway them. All you can do is stop buying their product.

[teks]

I wouldn't call this generic crap. For all its faults, its not generic crap. COD is generic crap. There are too many good things here to get away with that. This game has some of the best voice acting ever in a game. That alone already sets it apart from generic crap. Hate it all you want, but don't go into the delusion that your in any majority with that opinion.