293 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Yes, but it is more based on tactics and character build rather than action combat. I'm thinking like KOTOR vs. Mass Effect. Origins was more KOTOR, Inquisition is more Mass Effect.
 
I like both playstyles, (ME was great!) but I don't want Dragon Age to turn into Mass Effect.  I want Dragon Age to stay Dragon Age, which means more tactics and character build
 
Edit: RTwP = Real Time with Pause

The tactics suck. They aren't defensible. Every time the AI automatically combos a status effect I set up, I start to think it's maybe not so bad, and then Solas hits 1/4 of my party with barrier, before anyone has even engaged, and I'm sad again.

This may or may not be a popular opinion amongst fellow PC gamers, but I think the 8 ability limit is a great idea. My issue is that they also drastically reduced the variety of builds you can make. CC is mostly gone from DA: I, and that's an issue to me. If we had a bunch of different skill trees, I think the resulting discussion amongst DA fans about how to best build your mage for 8 abilities would make for great discussion. As it stands, there are essentially 3 builds for each class, one for each specialization. You can't make a rogue focused on AOE CC like you could in DA2. I do like how very few of the abilities we do have, though, are worthless, which was a huge problem in Origins (poor balance amongst abilities).

 

I agree, and neither is the 9000+ replies (which makes it one of the most replied in threads) an indication that people are not supportive of the changes.

 

But it is an indication that there is a lot of interest (be it positve/negative) in the topic, and seeing how Bioware created the thread in the first place in "News and announcements" (which only has 11 topics) it shows that they are aware many PC users have concerns. IMO very valid concerns since I know Bioware can deliver better gameplay/controls for PC than what we have currently have. Looking at any of the 10 Bioware PC games I have on my shelf I'd say much better

 

Jade Empire's gameplay is still as awful as it ever was, as someone playing it again right now.

[Lianaar]

@MauveTick
What I was trying to address is not that there are no issues. I say, the issues don't overshadow the game for everyone posting in those threads.
There is one other thread I keep an eye on and even posted in often, which is the party banter silence thread. It is a concern that affects many, it is for some of us game breaking, It is an issue worth critics. But for me, it doesn't make the game bad. Maybe we should separate bugs, which can be helped and game design faults (or what you think one is), which will not be changed.

 

The bugs are either known, or should be listed in the bug forum, for there it helps.
I figured this thread is more about game features, which won't change in this game any more, but might be changed in future games, such as game play focus, system limits, balance, control system etc.

This is what I was attempting to express, probably with wrong word selection

 

As for the controls, my only issue is, that space was not the pause button. But that was all. I play on PC, controller is just not for me. I didn't have issues with it whatsoever. I didn't feel it is controller focused (for again, I suck with controllers). I seriously contemplate looking for keyboard for xbox

[mutantspicy]

I'll bite.

A shameful journalism-esque practice, but I see you are desperate to prove your point, which actually has no relevance to the discussion I had with Realmzmaster.

 

No, I should not. BG1 and its use of DnD 2ed are constants here to which we refer. Other versions of DnD have no relevance in this discussion. But man, how you struggle to save your face.

 

It's BG1 only here. No 'buts'. Let it go.

Not exactly true.  Neverwinter Nights was DnD 3.0.  Personally, NWN was my favorite of all the DnD games, not just because it played the DnD gameset near perfectly, but because the community acceptance was huge as a result.  This lead to a mountain heap of player made modules for future gaming.  The most replayable game I've ever owned.

 

One could argue that the DnD story parallels the discussion we are on.

 

DnD - good ideas but not really complete   (BG1)

ADnD 2.0 - Made the game what it is, the bench mark  (BG2)

DnD 3.0 (D20 ruleset) - Streamlined the game, but did so in a way that didn't dumb it down.  In fact the D20 system allowed for new elements of gameplay to be added the skill and feat system.   (NWN)

DnD3.5 - Just an expansion / bug fix for the broken ranger/bard   (NWN Vault - Modders)

DnD 4.0 - (cooldown ruleset) the MMO of PnP complete piece of garbage. Represents the timeframe of the first MMORPG's and DragonAge Origins.  The beginning of the end. 

[katokires]

Not exactly true.  Neverwinter Nights was DnD 3.0.  Personally, NWN was my favorite of all the DnD games, not just because it played the DnD gameset near perfectly, but because the community acceptance was huge as a result.  This lead to a mountain heap of player made modules for future gaming.  The replayable game I've ever owned.

 

One could argue that the DnD story parallels the discussion we are on.

 

DnD - good ideas but not really complete   (BG1)

ADnD 2.0 - Made the game what it is, the bench mark  (BG2)

DnD 3.0 (D20 ruleset) - Streamlined the game, but did so in a way that didn't dumb it down.  In fact the D20 system allowed for new elements of gameplay to be added the skill and feat system.   (NWN)

DnD3.5 - Just an expansion / bug fix for the broken ranger/bard   (NWN Vault - Modders)

DnD 4.0 - (cooldown ruleset) the MMO of PnP complete piece of garbage. Represents the timeframe of the first MMORPG's and DragonAge Origins.  The beginning of the end. 

Cool but you forgot god, AKA 3.5, AKA NWN2, AKA perfection

[DaemionMoadrin]

Not exactly true.  Neverwinter Nights was DnD 3.0.  Personally, NWN was my favorite of all the DnD games, not just because it played the DnD gameset near perfectly, but because the community acceptance was huge as a result.  This lead to a mountain heap of player made modules for future gaming.  The replayable game I've ever owned.

 

One could argue that the DnD story parallels the discussion we are on.

 

DnD - good ideas but not really complete   (BG1)

ADnD 2.0 - Made the game what it is, the bench mark  (BG2)

DnD 3.0 (D20 ruleset) - Streamlined the game, but did so in a way that didn't dumb it down.  In fact the D20 system allowed for new elements of gameplay to be added the skill and feat system.   (NWN)

DnD3.5 - Just an expansion / bug fix for the broken ranger/bard   (NWN Vault - Modders)

DnD 4.0 - (cooldown ruleset) the MMO of PnP complete piece of garbage. Represents the timeframe of the first MMORPG's and DragonAge Origins.  The beginning of the end. 

 

Meh, the first MMORPGs existed long before DnD 4.0, which was released in 2008.

 

I've played MMORPGs since 2001 and there were even older ones around at the time.

[mutantspicy]

Meh, the first MMORPGs existed long before DnD 4.0, which was released in 2008.

 

I've played MMORPGs since 2001 and there were even older ones around at the time.

I certainly didn't mean to say all that correlated perfectly timelinewise, just that the trends follow a similar path and they do. 

 

 

The point of posting it was simply to show, that sometimes streamlining a good game system works well.  DnD 3,  Sometimes its completely out to lunch DnD 4.

[Lianaar]

Oh, I can't agree more with the naming of saved games!

[Dakota Strider]

First attempt at what could be called a MMORPG that I recall, was an old, old version of Neverwinter Nights, Online.  It was sponsored by America On Line, back around 1994-1995.  It was based off of the TSR Gold Box Game design.  And, back then, AOL charged by the hour.  I remember getting some massive bills playing that, for several months, before I decided that the constant PvP that was rampant in the game, was not worth paying half of my rent every month.

[SofaJockey]

Solution:  Bioware, go back to trying to make games for the niche audience that you gained your reputation with.  Spend the time perfecting the aspects of the game that made your past games popular, and stop trying to copy every other popular game that is in the market, in the hopes of a few more sales.  A smaller, happier customer base, will net you far more sales in the long run, than chasing after customers that will try the product once, and decide its not for them.

 

By all means, identify improvements, but the correct direction is forwards not backwards:

 

Correct solution: BioWare, stick with the road you are on, don't be swayed by some in a niche audience that want you to make outdated games. Spend the time refining and perfecting DA's use of Frostbite 3 and develop those things that have made DAI popular. The semi-open world, the compelling story, the balance between active and tactical combat and the multiplayer. By refining Frostbite 3 further, you can sensibly find a balance with more polished combat, including some more quest cinematics that give even small quests a memorable pay-off and by enhancing tactics somewhat without going back to the endless if-then lists than most people ignored. Such refinements will cement your market position and popularity. A broad happy customer base will net you far more sales in the long run than chasing after difficult to satisfy customers that will try the product once, then grumble endlessly on BSN.

[scrutinizer]

By all means, identify improvements, but the correct direction is forwards not backwards:

YMMV, but for me the only improvment is the quality of graphics. Not to be confused with graphical fidelity; with all these over-exaggerated flickering lights. If forward means regression, I much prefer backwards.

 

 

Correct solution: BioWare, stick with the road you are on, don't be swayed by some in a niche audience that want you to make outdated games.

No one wants them to make outdated games. However, if a gameplay mechanic proved to be successful in the past, I do not see any reason for replacing it with an inferior one.

 

Spend the time refining and perfecting DA's use of Frostbite 3 and develop those things that have made DAI popular. 

You know what made DA:I popular? A game called Dragon Age: Origins.

 

Other than that, I agree. If Bioware can tame and harness the power of Frostbite 3, and really manipulate it to serve their needs (as of now I think Frostbite 3 manipulated Bioware, who danced to its tune), then yes, please improve (a viable question is: improve what? Which direction are they going? More action-oriented? More accessibility for wider range of customers? More RPG-oriented? But that's a different story; they are going to go wherever the market trends will dictate). But this would essentially mean admitting that DA:I kind of slipped through their fingers and they missed the mark with certain design decision. We both know it ain't gonna happen.

 

Peace.

[SofaJockey]

Peace.

 

We're all passionate about it.

There are varying roads to travel.

 

Perhaps the best of old and new is really the answer.

 

Peace indeed.

[scrutinizer]

Perhaps the best of old and new is really the answer.

Agreed 100%.

[mutantspicy]

YMMV, but for me the only improvment is the quality of graphics. Not to be confused with graphical fidelity; with all these over-exaggerated flickering lights. If forward means regression, I much prefer backwards.

 

 

No one wants them to make outdated games. However, if a gameplay mechanic proved to be successful in the past, I do not see any reason for replacing it with an inferior one.

 

You know what made DA:I popular? A game called Dragon Age: Origins.

 

Other than that, I agree. If Bioware can tame and harness the power of Frostbite 3, and really manipulate it to serve their needs (as of now I think Frostbite 3 manipulated Bioware, who danced to its tune), then yes, please improve (a viable question is: improve what? Which direction are they going? More action-oriented? More accessibility for wider range of customers? More RPG-oriented? But that's a different story; they are going to go wherever the market trends will dictate). But this would essentially mean admitting that DA:I kind of slipped through their fingers and they missed the mark with certain design decision. We both know it ain't gonna happen.

 

Peace.

Good post!

 

I have some thoughts regarding taking advantage of the current game engine.  Which I like.  

 

Firstly, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that the tactics system from DAO couldn't be integrated and without changing a thing gameplaywise.  Its just like they forgot to add it. I'd actually think that the tactics system from DAO wasn't really that great, compared to the mods who created advanced tactics. There is no reason it couldn't have been integrated, especially since the AI on its own is much smarter than the unreal engine.   

 

Second, I think they really messed up with mages.  The gameplay for everyone else improved, but for mages it stayed the same.  Except you have less spells.  That stinks.  I've had some ideas, most of which are regarding the lighting tree.  But overall there would need to be a gameplay mechanic change for the mages.  The Witcher 2 implemented it, Actually DAI does it with focus spells.  The idea of tiered spells   So instead of having three different slots for three different electric spells.  You would have one.  But you charge the spell with mana, One insta shot bolt.  Hold the button the wizard waves his hands, reads book, and walla its a chain lightning, hold it some more the wizards pulls out some spell components, chants some more and walla its a tempest storm.   Something like that.  Now you can have more creative branches.  You can go back to the primal school where you have one of each of these type mana building spells from the 3 primal elements.

 

Most importantly though, and regardless of how they do it, Magic is sacred.  Once you create your magic lore(schools) in a realm, you can't change it.  That goes against everything.  DAO established how the schools were aligned.  That's how they are, you can't alter how magic is arranged suddenly in your world.  And DAI it seems like everything is split apart elementally, and not where they used to be.  This is ridiculous.  If they wanted to change how the magics schools were setup then we were owed an explanation via the game world.  If its because the circles broke up, then a story needed to be told.  Nonetheless a lazy effort with the mages.  There's no excuse.

[mutantspicy]

As another example.

Based on what I know from DAO.  

 

Knight Enchanter.. that's a solid step up.

 

From Arcane Warrior.

 

Yet in this version you can be some random hodge podge elemental mage.  And suddenly you can become a Knight Enchanter!!!

 

Shouldn't you have to develop your magic schools to become an Arcane Warrior, then develop it more to become a Knight Enchanter???

[Lianaar]

You know what made DA:I popular? A game called Dragon Age: Origins.

 

I am sorry, but this is presumption and probably not valid.
I am happy to accept that some people bought DA:I because of DA:O, but that game is what, 6 years old?

If the claim BW employees make in the forum, which is, the game is selling the best from the 3 DA titles, then the above statement is simply wrong.

 

I can easily say ME1-3 made DA:I just as popular, since that brought good name for BW or at least familiariy of people. The online and printed press also brought a lot of people to the game, for reviews were great, just like many of the youtube reviews. We can also say some of the books brought attention to the game, just like the comics.

 

There were many source of attention and many of them are not that old as DA:O. While I do not doubt or make the effect DA:O had on sales any less, but claiming that is the only or even main source of attention is simply presumption which I can not claim my own.

[adr750227]

Missing the point....completely 

 

she/he is not missing the point...she/he doesn't even know there is a point to begin with....

[Dakota Strider]

@mutantspicy:  I agree that the mages have been messed up and wish they would return to the magic system that they so carefully explained to us, and made ingrained in the lore of Thedas, when they first introduced us to this world.  I thought that they had done an exceptional job with creating the new magic system with DAO.  It is a shame, that they have decided to "streamline" it.  (streamlined is supposed to mean run smoother, but in games it generally means the removal of features to make things simpler).  

 

However, it is just not the mages that have been remolded, and (trying real hard not to say dumbed down) simplified.  Where are rangers?  Rangers are almost as iconic a class in the genre as mages.  I was not in full agreement when they made rangers part of the rogue class in DAO, but I understood their game logic.  It worked well, and was a balanced class. 

 

But regardless if classified as a rogue or a warrior, there should be rangers in the DA world.  With so much wilderness, a warrior (or rogue) culture with the skills of a ranger would naturally evolve.  The main reason I can see why it is not included, is because a ranger is not so much a specialist, but is good at several things.  And since they decided that our characters are not allowed to switch from missile to melee weapons within combat, which really takes away from how a classic ranger fights, they unceremoniously dropped it.

 

And since I mentioned rangers being removed from the DA game culture... what about Bards?  Seems unfair players are unable to create this specialty, especially when we see Leliana (the first DA bard we met back in Origins) running around.  Its like they are sticking it in our face and saying "You can't have this...nah nah".

[Rawgrim]

The combat really messed up the mages in DA. I haven't felt like a mage in Dragon Age since DA:O. Everyone is sparkling and flashing about, doing magic no matter their class.

[Elhanan]

The combat really messed up the mages in DA. I haven't felt like a mage in Dragon Age since DA:O. Everyone is sparkling and flashing about, doing magic no matter their class.

Set Effects Quality to Low; removes the flash and sparkle, makes spells to appear more natural, and improves FPS.

[Skeevley]

OP is generally spot-on. There has actually been a lot of "finding the middle ground" ruining games recently. (GT5 in the preview stages was a great Racing SIM, but people complained that it was "too hard" and they dumbed it down in the final to a hybrid racing sim/arcade game; result - a ruined product, with GT6 following right along). Heck, it ruins a LOT of things because what you get is mediocrity. All too often things just don't work well when you try to build something that will appeal to everyone. You often end up with something that just doesn't do anything well. A lot of people are, I think, just kind of blind to this though and are perfectly happy with mediocre, so in a way, who can blame companies for catering to an audience in which the majority of people aren't discerning anyway? (Clear example from another industry; all-season tires. If you've ever driven with a good set of summer performance tires and a good set of winter tires, you'll never want all-season tires again, because they do everything kind of poorly. You don't get a tire that's a great summer tire and a great winter tire, you get a tire that's a mediocre summer tire and a mediocre winter tire. And while there are a lot of drivers who do understand tires, the vast majority of drivers seem perfectly happy driving on tires which are mediocre in nearly every way, with no understanding that truly GOOD tires can potentially save your life, the life of your family members, the life of others, or the life of that adorable little squirrel confused about where to run...)

 

Key here is that it simply doesn't feel like EA / Bioware understand what made Bioware games so great, or what made Bioware fans love their games so much. If you fundamentally don't understand what made your product great, then doing it right again the next time around becomes a lot more difficult.

 

P.S. And, if you make a game for consoles and PC, that's great. But start with the most capable platform, build to that, and then modify DOWN to the other platforms and everyone will be happy. If you do it the other way around, you're going to make everyone with the more capable platforms angry. (Man was the gaming community angry when Skyrim came out with crappy console-level textures (which Bethesda was good enough to fix)). AND, pay attention to the controls and UI for each platform... I can't imagine the number of sales in the PC-market that EA must have lost because of all the bad reviews, many of which are largely due to the controls, so getting this stuff right is just good business practice!

[Dakota Strider]

@Skeevley:  I like the way you frame an argument, sir.  I have made many analogies in my time, in regards to this game.  But never with tires.  I salute you.

[Sidney]

The combat really messed up the mages in DA. I haven't felt like a mage in Dragon Age since DA:O. Everyone is sparkling and flashing about, doing magic no matter their class.

So two handed warriors causing the ground to shake (two handed impact) wasn't magical to your in DAO? Or archers splitting arrows into 8 pieces? Or the ability to have radar as a survivalist? Or, heck just stealth which walked way away from hiding in shadows to functional invisibility. Let us throw in threaten and taunt where shouting carries magical mind altering powers. Two handed sweep where your hammer magically passes through more than one foe light saber style? Arrow time where you go full matrix basically? Then we start getting into the specializations where they really go full magic. Ranger summon animals. Champions, well more magical yelling. Bards casting bless basically. Guardians, cast bless basically as well. Mark of Death is a hex spell that has no rational explanation. I could go on but it isn't just a few magical abilities, most of then talents from DAO are basically magic by another name. Once more the DAO fog machine works on the memory.

[AlanC9]

Well, there is a presentation difference. Everyone in DA:O had magic abilities, but the mages got most of the flashy VFX. Rawgrim's talking about feelings rather than the substantive mechanics. I'd be making the same complaint if I was sensitive to this sort of thing.