223 réponses à ce sujet

[Jackums]

Absolute Monarchy but yes it isn't a democratic state.

Those don't exist in Thedas.

No, I'm referring to your own personal views.

 

People don't have any claim to basic human rights according to you? If the law says one thing, anyone that disobeys it deserves death?

 

You support Gaspard eliminating nobles that are causing dissent, yet when an entire group of people is being systematically oppressed, your standards don't apply. Clearly you're not basing any of your convictions off of a moral compass. So is it purely an inclination towards order and law, humanity and liberty aside? As such, if the Tevinter Imperium were to dominate Thedas, and thus establish order, would mundanes rising up against them be heresy in your eyes, just as nobles opposing Gaspard is? Technically it would be opposing the "law" and causing dissent, thus the same logic you're using to defend Gaspard should apply. Somehow I don't imagine you'd be so supportive of the law if the situation were reversed and mages were in charge.

 

Thus all I can rationally conclude is that your convictions are based upon heavy biases and double standards, with no objectivity about it whatsoever.

[The Ascendant]

In one of my playthroughs my Inquisitor, allies with the Templars, romances Cass, makes her Divine, allies with the Wardens, makes Gaspard Emperor and let Morrigan drink the Well. Cass is the best Divine to deal with the Templars, especially if encouraging Cullen to stay of lyrium and convince her to recreate the Seekers. As a Seeker she knows how to deal with them and what they go through.  

[Lulupab]

No, I'm referring to your own personal views.

 

People don't have any claim to basic human rights according to you? If the law says one thing, anyone that disobeys it deserves death?

 

You support Gaspard eliminating nobles that are causing dissent, yet when an entire group of people is being systematically oppressed, your standards don't apply. Clearly you're not basing any of your convictions off of a moral compass. So is it purely an inclination towards order and law, humanity and liberty aside? As such, if the Tevinter Imperium were to dominate Thedas, and thus establish order, would mundanes rising up against them be heresy in your eyes, just as nobles opposing Gaspard is? Technically it would be opposing the "law" and causing dissent, thus the same logic you're using to defend Gaspard should apply. Somehow I don't imagine you'd be so supportive of the law if the situation were reversed and mages were in charge.

 

Thus all I can rationally conclude is that your convictions are based upon heavy biases and double standards, with no objectivity about it whatsoever.

 

This should be written in gold.

[Steelcan]

TBH that's something I've read and remember from Old Ferelden threads, so don't take my word on it, could be false, could be right. I don't even know where to look for it.

 

However this wasn't even the point I tried to made, its not about Chantry. Its about a crazy noble becoming emperor, Emperor Reville. Usually known as "Mad Emperor". He was born and later ascended to a power to raze a country to the ground. That killed more than all magical incidents in Ferelden combined.

surely you mean Florian

[Steelcan]

Anders was hunted down and spied upon when he became a grey warden and king/queen of Ferelden ordered him to be left alone. The Organization that ignores this deserves to be blown up, and Anders made it pink, much more deserving. Too bad innocents died as well, but the Chantry and Templars inside them? More than deserved.

 

I think anyone can see the connection between Anders and V (V for Vendetta) After all the torments from childhood, they both destroyed a building that forever changed the world.

 

 

Warder you are out of your league, stick to your military and dictatorships and let us do out job in democracy, there is a very thin line between them anyway and Gaspard crossed the line ages ago. When there is landsmeet, heck when when there is Magisterium, you just don't know what you're talking about. These systems, which can be related to real life governments at older times are closest you can get to democracy in their time such as feudal ages.

 

inb4 hyperbole 

 

Gaspard shares your're views in this matter "One ring to rule them all". No wonder you worship him, justifying his vile murders and crimes for "good of nation". 

Yes, the chantry priests and templar members who never met Anders in their life deserved to die for the treatment he suffered..... Seems very legit.

 

 

The Landsmeet and Magisterium are not elected offices, they are appointed by owning titles and land in the case of the Landsmeet, or by appointment by the Archon in the case of the Magisterium.  Neither are democratic institutions in the slightest.

 

Gaspard is now Sauron?  Seriously?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ser Rylock acted against the will of the crown and the sovereignty of the Grey Wardens right of conscription, and outright tells you that her authority as a templar supercedes the authority of the crown. 

 

Ser Rylon is in Anders Short Story before DA2 came out, written by Jennifer Hepler, and he was sent into the Wardens by the templars as a spy to keep tabs on Anders. 

 

Anders may have had it both easier and harder than most mages because he formed fond memories of his mother before being taken away from her in chains, but he also got to spend time with his mother and wasn't abandoned like Jowan was, or bullied and parentless like Wynne was, or killed by a lynchmob as Minaeve nearly was, but he also has a greater appreciation of what was lost. 

 

And the templars were making it a point to go against Ferelden's laws in favor of their own idealogy when it came to Anders being a Grey Warden. Had they left him alone, he wouldn't have been possessed by Justice and never ended up in Kirkwall....and Hawke wouldn't have gotten the Grey Warden maps so there wouldn't have been an idol. 

 

I'm not saying the templars are responsible for what happened, because that would negate the free will of everyone in Kirkwall but I am saying that zealotry in the templars is an issue, one that is even acknowledged in the templar codex by saying that religious fervor is looked at before those of character. And Anders suffered as a direct result of that zealotry from templars who couldn't leave well enough alone. 

Rylock was alone with few templars and acted outside law and in fact could be right about anders as he could murder those templars...

 

And no Anders didn't turn into an abomnation because templars hunted him what wasn't even close to truth after the warden could kill Rylock.

 

Short story was about him being an abomination where even wardens sold him for that templars would not go after an abomnation is just ridiculous.

 

Anders was always danger to society and proved that many times.

[Lulupab]

Yes, the chantry priests and templar members who never met Anders in their life deserved to die for the treatment he all mages suffered..... Seems very legit.

 

 

The Landsmeet and Magisterium are not elected offices, they are appointed by owning titles and land in the case of the Landsmeet, or by appointment by the Archon in the case of the Magisterium.  Neither are democratic institutions in the slightest.

 

Gaspard is now Sauron?  Seriously?

 

First of all fixed your post, read the bold part.

 

That's the thing, democracy didn't exist at the time as I said previously (and you seemed to ignore?) but some governments were very close. Landsmeet is similar to England's government and the Magisterium is similar to rome and some greek backgrounds. They were the closest thing to democracy at their time and the democracy today is rooted from such kingdoms. Like its a fact of history, are we even debating this? Democracy didn't came out of nowhere, it was slowly built thanks to said governments.

 

"one ring to rule them all" is a tvtrope thingy and does not make one Sauron, but it means one share his ideas about how a land should be ruled. All power in one hand, kill all who resists etc... 

[Lulupab]

Rylock was alone with few templars and acted outside law and in fact could be right about anders as he could murder those templars...

 

And no Anders didn't turn into an abomnation because templars hunted him what wasn't even close to truth after the warden could kill Rylock.

 

Short story was about him being an abomination where even wardens sold him for that templars would not go after an abomnation is just ridiculous.

 

Anders was always danger to society and proved that many times.

 

Warden commander of wardens didn't know, the wardens who sold Anders were Roland's friend, aka a Templar. The warden commander would use Anders as wardens have used worse. A ,age that killed people who train for years to counter his kind with snap of his fingers, he would be very useful against darkspawm. Andes have killed hundreds all by himself already, and that was before Justice.

 

Although a technical abomination, Anders was himself. He could listen, make plans etc... and wardens had every right to keep him among his ranks. That was yet another wrong done by the Templars and Chantry.

[Steelcan]

First of all fixed your post, read the bold part.

 

That's the thing, democracy didn't exist at the time as I said previously (and you seemed to ignore?) but some governments were very close. Landsmeet is similar to England's government and the Magisterium is similar to rome and some greek backgrounds. They were the closest thing to democracy at their time and the democracy today is rooted from such kingdoms. Like its a fact of history, are we even debating this? Democracy didn't came out of nowhere, it was slowly built thanks to said governments.

 

"one ring to rule them all" is a tvtrope thingy and does not make one Sauron, but it means one share his ideas about how a land should be ruled. All power in one hand, kill all who resists etc... 

So, those people deserved to die for crimes that they had no hand in committing.  If you want to kill all of them by guilt of association just say it, but don't pretend its the moral option

 

No it isn't.  There is no House of Commons that is democratically elected in Ferelden, there are no senators that are elected in the Imperium both offices are largely hereditary and the position in them exists at the whim of a monarch.  There is no input from the common people whatsoever, so there is no parallel to democracy, other than what you think might come of it in the future.

 

"One Ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them" its directly linked to Sauron, its not really a trope beyond "evil people are sometimes absolute monarchs"

 

Being an absolute monarch does not inherently make you akin to the fallen Maiar Sauron, so the comparison isn't needed.  It just serves to inflame.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Warden commander of wardens didn't know, the wardens who sold Anders were Roland's friend, aka a Templar. The warden commander would use Anders as wardens have used worse. A ,age that killed people who train for years to counter his kind with snap of his fingers, he would be very useful against darkspawm. Andes have killed hundreds all by himself already, and that was before Justice.

 

Although a technical abomination, Anders was himself. He could listen, make plans etc... and wardens had every right to keep him among his ranks. That was yet another wrong done by the Templars and Chantry.

LoL this is ridiculous he was an abomnation and this story proved he is unstable and dangerous not to mention da 2.And no wardens didn't use abomnations unless you mean that idiots in dai and how that end we know.

 

Not mention warden commander part is made up as we don't know who was warden commander and if they agreed or not but we know that wardens that have no problem with blood magic and super extreme methods said "no" to this guy.

[Lulupab]

So, those people deserved to die for crimes that they had no hand in committing.  If you want to kill all of them by guilt of association just say it, but don't pretend its the moral option

 

No it isn't.  There is no House of Commons that is democratically elected in Ferelden, there are no senators that are elected in the Imperium both offices are largely hereditary and the position in them exists at the whim of a monarch.  There is no input from the common people whatsoever, so there is no parallel to democracy, other than what you think might come of it in the future.

 

"One Ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them" its directly linked to Sauron, its not really a trope beyond "evil people are sometimes absolute monarchs"

 

Being an absolute monarch does not inherently make you akin to the fallen Maiar Sauron, so the comparison isn't needed.  It just serves to inflame.

 

It has to start from somewhere and its definitely not Orlais and DEFINITELY not gaspard. Loghain went from mere commoner to ranks of nobles and it was noted among ranks of Ferelden. A few more examples from here some from somewhere else and if there is any hope for democracy it lies with this. Again I don't see the point of this debate.

 

With Celene and Briala reunited and gaspard executed you get zero opposition because there is no one and nothing left to oppose. Stability is restored in the empire and foreign relations flourish. Knowing that there is a diplomatic way to fix things but going all out dictator is even worse. These are the leaders who lead the country to bad places. And by "bad place" I don't necessarily mean its fall, but wars, abhorrent crimes, and the alike.

[Lulupab]

LoL this is ridiculous he was an abomnation and this story proved he is unstable and dangerous not to mention da 2.And no wardens didn't use abomnations unless you mean that idiots in dai and how that end we know.

 

Not mention warden commander part is made up as we don't know who was warden commander and if they agreed or not but we know that wardens that have no problem with blood magic and super extreme methods said "no" to this guy.

 

LMAO your warden was the warden commander at the time. Get your facts straight.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LMAO your warden was the warden commander at the time. Get your facts straight.

I don't see any facts unless you think everything you say is fact.As i said we don't know who is warden commander by then story don't even goes into that only that wardens agreed on that he is an abomnation and don't want him.

[Steelcan]

It has to start from somewhere and its definitely not Orlais and DEFINITELY not gaspard. Loghain went from mere commoner to ranks of nobles and it was noted among ranks of Ferelden. A few more examples from here some from somewhere else and if there is any hope for democracy it lies with this. Again I don't see the point of this debate.

 

With Celene and Briala reunited and gaspard executed you get zero opposition because there is no one and nothing left to oppose. Stability is restored in the empire and foreign relations flourish. Knowing that there is a diplomatic way to fix things but going all out dictator is even worse. These are the leaders who lead the country to bad places. And by "bad place" I don't necessarily mean its fall, but wars, abhorrent crimes, and the alike.

Still not even an infantile form of democracy

 

Well I'm not amenable to putting people back into abusive relationships, and given how Gaspard turns out, your concerns are entirely unjustified

[Lulupab]

Still not even an infantile form of democracy

 

Well I'm not amenable to putting people back into abusive relationships, and given how Gaspard turns out, your concerns are entirely unjustified

 

Deny it all you like, that's first steps of democracy and from the looks of it its very much like how we got democracy and human rights, specially if you go way back to first Greek and Persian empires which represented magisterium and landsmeet respectively and are the countries who can take credit for starting democracy (Greece more than Persia but still)

 

Considering how many he kills in first few days of his reign they are not really unjustified. Gaspard does nothing for elves.

[Steelcan]

You have no way of knowing if its a step towards democracy or not. You can't see into the future of Thedas and know when if ever democratic reform will come. As they exist right now, these institutions are not democratic.

Celene also goes on a killing spree of Gaspard's supporters. And once peace is restored he is shown to be every bit as, if not more, capable as Celene.

Not doing anything for elves is a matter of opinion on what needs to be done. I don't think that shredding the social fabric or Orlais is a good idea

[Kinsz]

First of all fixed your post, read the bold part.

 

That's the thing, democracy didn't exist at the time as I said previously (and you seemed to ignore?) but some governments were very close. Landsmeet is similar to England's government and the Magisterium is similar to rome and some greek backgrounds. They were the closest thing to democracy at their time and the democracy today is rooted from such kingdoms. Like its a fact of history, are we even debating this? Democracy didn't came out of nowhere, it was slowly built thanks to said governments.

 

"one ring to rule them all" is a tvtrope thingy and does not make one Sauron, but it means one share his ideas about how a land should be ruled. All power in one hand, kill all who resists etc... 

That sounds like hardened Leliana, no ?

[Lulupab]

You have no way of knowing if its a step towards democracy or not. You can't see into the future of Thedas and know when if ever democratic reform will come. As they exist right now, these institutions are not democratic.

Celene also goes on a killing spree of Gaspard's supporters. And once peace is restored he is shown to be every bit as, if not more, capable as Celene.

Not doing anything for elves is a matter of opinion on what needs to be done. I don't think that shredding the social fabric or Orlais is a good idea

So tell me who predicting the coming of renaissance? No one. More importantly no one could have known it could start at Italy, the center of Christianity. Steps need to be taken in right direction if there is to be any hope. Trying is first step.

Which Celene are you talking about exactly? I think I was deliberate when I said reconcile Celene with Briala to get that ending. Celene alone or Gaspard not executed messes things up. Reconciling Celene and Briala and executing Gaspard is the best epilogue in terms of stability for Orlais, rights for elves without damaging Orlais itself, and foreign relations. Shredding the fabric of Orlais only happens if Gaspard becomes Briala's puppet. With Celene Briala becomes a noble with a voice and likely the changes will be less radical, such as brutality against elves will be punishable and similar rights.

[Lulupab]

That sounds like hardened Leliana, no ?

Hardly, Leliana is starting a renaissance in Thedas. She is not brutalizing people, she is not oppressing them. The only people who oppose her are zealots and extremists of chantry who feel like their income is in danger. Her opposition is quite limited compared to Gaspard because everyone have a lot to gain from her reforms except the zealots. And since Leliana is not a companion she cannot disapprove and therefore unlike the other two candidates she has full support of Inquisition.

What about Vivienne who mass murders everyone who opposes for months and there is chaos for some time due to immediate uproar and rebellion that follows after she becomes divine.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Hardly, Leliana is starting a renaissance in Thedas. She is not brutalizing people, she is not oppressing them. The only people who oppose her are zealots and extremists of chantry who feel like their income is in danger. Her opposition is quite limited compared to Gaspard because everyone have a lot to gain from her reforms except the zealots. And since Leliana is not a companion she cannot disapprove and therefore unlike the other two candidates she has full support of Inquisition.

What about Vivienne who mass murders everyone who opposes for months and there is chaos for some time due to immediate uproar and rebellion that follows after she becomes divine.

Funny that you point her enemies as zelaots and extremists when she herself is extremist killing everyone who gets in her way...

[Lulupab]

Funny that you point her enemies as zelaots and extremists when she herself is extremist killing everyone who gets in her way...

Its in the right direction. And they are zealots. Pushes were needed to make renaissance a reality, hardened Leliana understands that. De Medici family of Florence fought with pope itself and contributed a lot to renaissance. If you fail to grasp the obvious, that's not my problem.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Funny that you point her enemies as zelaots and extremists when she herself is extremist killing everyone who gets in her way...

If Cassandra becomes divine and she hates the Inquisitor, she uses the Seekers to violently put down those who oppose her reforms.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Its in the right direction. And they are zealots. Pushes were needed to make renaissance a reality, hardened Leliana understands that. De Medici family of Florence fought with pope itself and contributed a lot to renaissance. If you fail the grasp the obvious, that's not my problem.

Not rly it is called being self-righteous practically she does the same what those "zelaots" well in fact that could be seen as traditionalists that disagree with her vision of chantry.She kills and destroys everyone who gets in her way because of her ideology that is pretty much what zelaots do... 

 

 

 

If Cassandra becomes divine and she hates the Inquisitor, she uses the Seekers to violently put down those who oppose her reforms.

Not rly you make things up all it says that seekers had key role in defeating sects not how they did that.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Not rly it is called being self-righteous practically she does the same what those "zelaots" well in fact that could be seen as traditionalists that disagree with her vision of chantry.She kills and destroys everyone who gets in her way because of her ideology that is pretty much what zelaots do... 

Considering that even when Corypheus was trying to destroy the world some of the Chantry still opposed the Inquisition since they thought the Inquisition was leading people away from the "true" chantry, I'm not sure those people are smart.

[Lulupab]

Not rly it is called being self-righteous practically she does the same what those "zelaots" well in fact that could be seen as traditionalists that disagree with her vision of chantry.She kills and destroys everyone who gets in her way because of her ideology that is pretty much what zelaots do... 

 

 

"everyone"? Nope. No one outside the chantry dies. And don't forget as thesuperdarkone2 the Chantry and its zealots thought it was a good idea to oppose the inquisition and pray everything will be alright when Cory was tearing the world apart. The Chantry has failed, spectacularly and people responsible for it need to go.