223 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Its in the right direction.

So you can say what the right direction is.

Good to know, it makes your dismissal of my position sort of a hypothetical joke.

[thesuperdarkone2]

So you can say what the right direction is.

Good to know, it makes your dismissal of my position sort of a hypothetical joke.

You come across as a hypocrite with terrible double standards.

As shown:

No, I'm referring to your own personal views.

 

People don't have any claim to basic human rights according to you? If the law says one thing, anyone that disobeys it deserves death?

 

You support Gaspard eliminating nobles that are causing dissent, yet when an entire group of people is being systematically oppressed, your standards don't apply. Clearly you're not basing any of your convictions off of a moral compass. So is it purely an inclination towards order and law, humanity and liberty aside? As such, if the Tevinter Imperium were to dominate Thedas, and thus establish order, would mundanes rising up against them be heresy in your eyes, just as nobles opposing Gaspard is? Technically it would be opposing the "law" and causing dissent, thus the same logic you're using to defend Gaspard should apply. Somehow I don't imagine you'd be so supportive of the law if the situation were reversed and mages were in charge.

 

Thus all I can rationally conclude is that your convictions are based upon heavy biases and double standards, with no objectivity about it whatsoever.

[Lulupab]

So you can say what the right direction is.

Good to know, it makes your dismissal of my position sort of a hypothetical joke.

 

Your only excuse, let me repeat YOUR ONLY EXCUSE is Leliana is "not believable". There is not a single thing wrong with what she does for Thedas. Every single reform of her are in good direction. But as always your obvious bias is clouding your judgement. And you haven't answered this yet so I'm just gonna copy it.

 

People don't have any claim to basic human rights according to you? If the law says one thing, anyone that disobeys it deserves death?

You support Gaspard eliminating nobles that are causing dissent, yet when an entire group of people is being systematically oppressed, your standards don't apply. Clearly you're not basing any of your convictions off of a moral compass. So is it purely an inclination towards order and law, humanity and liberty aside? As such, if the Tevinter Imperium were to dominate Thedas, and thus establish order, would mundanes rising up against them be heresy in your eyes, just as nobles opposing Gaspard is? Technically it would be opposing the "law" and causing dissent, thus the same logic you're using to defend Gaspard should apply. Somehow I don't imagine you'd be so supportive of the law if the situation were reversed and mages were in charge.

Thus all I can rationally conclude is that your convictions are based upon heavy biases and double standards, with no objectivity about it whatsoever.

[Maiafay]

Hmm seems like Leliana is a poor choice for divine if templars are chosen. /sigh looks like it will have to be Cass despite her being my romance. :*(

No, she was the best choice, especially if you prevent her from killing the traitor spy and Natalie. My epilogue had her as Divine and nothing negative happened concerning the mages or templars aside from not needing the latter anymore.

[TheKomandorShepard]

"everyone"? Nope. No one outside the chantry dies. And don't forget as thesuperdarkone2 the Chantry and its zealots thought it was a good idea to oppose the inquisition and pray everything will be alright when Cory was tearing the world apart. The Chantry has failed, spectacularly and people responsible for it need to go.

Yes of course because leliana wouldn't kill anyone outside chantry ups (it is good that you know every detail even that were not mentioned in universe)... Inquisition was bunch of rebels that supported person that was suspected of killing thousands of people so no wonder chantry opposed them plus chantry oppose inquistion only very early in game.

 

Funny thing that you mention that peoples responsible for chantry failure need to go because last divine as well leliana were responsible for mage-templar war when seekers and templars prevented it so nope...

[Lulupab]

Funny thing that you mention that peoples responsible for chantry failure need to go because last divine as well leliana were responsible for mage-templar war when seekers and templars prevented it so nope...

 

Debatable. The game pretty much confirms the Seekers have failed.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Debatable. The game pretty much confirms the Seekers have failed.

Not rly seekers succeed until leliana and divine destroyed their efforts leading pretty much to chantry almost falling apart by losing control over mages and betraying templars and by that losing them as well not mention causing war.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Yes of course because leliana wouldn't kill anyone outside chantry ups (it is good that you know every detail even that were not mentioned in universe)... Inquisition was bunch of rebels that supported person that was suspected of killing thousands of people so no wonder chantry opposed them plus chantry oppose inquistion only very early in game.

 

Funny thing that you mention that peoples responsible for chantry failure need to go because last divine as well leliana were responsible for mage-templar war when seekers and templars prevented it so nope...

If you side with the Templars, they outright say that their upper levels were corrupt and they'll need to rebuild. The game and therefore the devs themselves are pretty much indicating that the problem was mages not having enough freedom and templars being to strict and corrupt. Why else would mages always get more freedom in all endings and templars lose power in all endings? Face it, the devs don't thing oppressing mages is right and thus that viewpoint is wrong.

[TheKomandorShepard]

If you side with the Templars, they outright say that their upper levels were corrupt and they'll need to rebuild. The game and therefore the devs themselves are pretty much indicating that the problem was mages not having enough freedom and templars being to strict and corrupt. Why else would mages always get more freedom in all endings and templars lose power in all endings? Face it, the devs don't thing oppressing mages is right and thus that viewpoint is wrong.

No? i never heard game telling me or devs that problem was not that mages didn't had enough freedom.

 

Besides you are repeating what you said but still have to answer my question then we can talk about that if mages didn't had enought freedom was problem.

[SgtSteel91]

I dunno, Cassandra, a Seeker herself and Right Hand of the Divine, believes that the Seekers were in the wrong.

 

 

No? i never heard game telling me or devs that problem was not that mages didn't had enough freedom.

 

Other than the fact that none of the endings allow you to reinstate the Circle as it was or even oppress Mages more?

[TheKomandorShepard]

I dunno, Cassandra, a Seeker herself and Right Hand of the Divine, believes that the Seekers were in the wrong.

Yeah cassandra don't know crap she herself served woman that was uber corrupted and thrown thedas into war almost destroying chantry she saw divine way she wanted saw her not way she was.

 

 

Other than the fact that none of the endings allow you to reinstate the Circle as it was or even oppress Mages more?

Da 2 didn't allow me to kill petrice or kill tallis and get list to do something about spies.

 

Does that mean devs are telling me that not killing petrice is better choice or i should support qunari?

[SgtSteel91]

 saw divine way she wanted saw her not way she was.

 

Kinda can say the same for you, Kommander

[TheKomandorShepard]

Kinda can say the same for you, Kommander

Nah i would prefer her not causing mess but she did and i had to clean it in dai.

[Lulupab]

Nah i would prefer her not causing mess but she did and i had to clean it in dai.

 

There is no single person in DA:I that doesn't venerate Justinia and quite frankly their opinion is what matters. You think anyone cares what a BSNer thinks about it?

[TheKomandorShepard]

There is no single person in DA:I that doesn't venerate Justinia and quite frankly their opinion is what matters. You think anyone cares what a BSNer thinks about it?

They love her image not what she was if they knew what she was doing behind curtain most quickly would stop love her.

[thesuperdarkone2]

They love her image not what she was if they knew what she was doing behind curtain most quickly would stop love her.

I get the distinct impression that you're just mad that the gmae indicated your opinions are in the wrong and that that kind of thinking destroyed everything. Most characters say that Circle system was broken and either needs to be reformed or removed altogether. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

I get the distinct impression that you're just mad that the gmae indicated your opinions are in the wrong and that that kind of thinking destroyed everything. Most characters say that Circle system was broken and either needs to be reformed or removed altogether. 

Well you got wrong impression in fact you can't ever read what im saying and you can't reply on simple question.

 

As i said circle system was broken but for other reasons not that you claim until you will answer my question there is no point other that you repeating yourself with that because if devs didn't gave us option such option is wrong what i in fact mocked already here.

[Master Warder Z_]

You come across as a hypocrite with terrible double standards.
As shown:

That's an interesting take on a perspective that isn't my own that is directed to myself.

So what I come across to people who assume assine things about me is irrelevant.

[Steelcan]

So tell me who predicting the coming of renaissance? No one. More importantly no one could have known it could start at Italy, the center of Christianity. Steps need to be taken in right direction if there is to be any hope. Trying is first step.

Which Celene are you talking about exactly? I think I was deliberate when I said reconcile Celene with Briala to get that ending. Celene alone or Gaspard not executed messes things up. Reconciling Celene and Briala and executing Gaspard is the best epilogue in terms of stability for Orlais, rights for elves without damaging Orlais itself, and foreign relations. Shredding the fabric of Orlais only happens if Gaspard becomes Briala's puppet. With Celene Briala becomes a noble with a voice and likely the changes will be less radical, such as brutality against elves will be punishable and similar rights.

Don't try and write off the start of teh Renaissance as a simple occurrence starting in Italy and spreading, it was predicated on numerous other events that happened through out the Medieval period, such as the Crusades, rise in commerce, Greeks fleeing the Ottoman advance, etc...  Not to mention that the Church was a major patron of it encouraging the flourishing of the arts.

 

Celene kills off Gaspard's supporters if he is exiled or killed, no matter of Briala is with her or not, Leliana mentions it in ambient dialogue.  Don't try and pretend that she's forgiving and kind.

[Steelcan]

Its in the right direction. And they are zealots. Pushes were needed to make renaissance a reality, hardened Leliana understands that. De Medici family of Florence fought with pope itself and contributed a lot to renaissance. If you fail to grasp the obvious, that's not my problem.

and the Popes of the Renaissance spent vast sums also commissioning art, the arts flourished under the Church across Europe during the Renaissance, it was not some secular/Clerical movement.  They went hand in hand

[Lulupab]

it was not some secular/Clerical movement.  They went hand in hand

 

After the zealots were brought down from power. I never suggested torching down the chantry, only people clinging to ways that cause age-old problems. The pope I talked about had to go for any change to happen. The next pope was quite accommodating. 

[Lulupab]

Don't try and write off the start of teh Renaissance as a simple occurrence starting in Italy and spreading, it was predicated on numerous other events that happened through out the Medieval period, such as the Crusades, rise in commerce, Greeks fleeing the Ottoman advance, etc...  Not to mention that the Church was a major patron of it encouraging the flourishing of the arts.

 

Celene kills off Gaspard's supporters if he is exiled or killed, no matter of Briala is with her or not, Leliana mentions it in ambient dialogue.  Don't try and pretend that she's forgiving and kind.

 

When did I made it simple? Such movements are never simple, such as mage rebellion but the meeting that led to rebellion is more important than other events. In this case Italy played the major role in which inspired others as well. I think after the Chantry disgraced itself by denouncing Inquisition and playing zero role in defeating Corypheus, its time for change now. Its certainly on same level with events that led to Renaissance.

 

I didn't hear the dialogue when I killed Gaspard, only when I exiled him. He is planning to return and his followers are making it possible.

[Steelcan]

When did I made it simple? Such movements are never simple, such as mage rebellion but the meeting that led to rebellion is more important than other events. In this case Italy played the major role in which inspired others as well. I think after the Chantry disgraced itself by denouncing Inquisition and playing zero role in defeating Corypheus, its time for change now. Its certainly on same level with events that led to Renaissance.

 

I didn't hear the dialogue when I killed Gaspard, only when I exiled him. He is planning to return and his followers are making it possible.

Then the Chantry grows pretty close to it, even drawing its Divine candidates from your inner circle, numerous Chantry mothers are in the movement, and religious Andrastians make up many of the recruits.

 

I heard it when I had him killed

[Lulupab]

Then the Chantry grows pretty close to it, even drawing its Divine candidates from your inner circle, numerous Chantry mothers are in the movement, and religious Andrastians make up many of the recruits.

 

I heard it when I had him killed

 

Which leads to what I said earlier, Both Leliana and Cassandra can be this new pope that accommodates these changes. Going back will solve nothing and will actually create more troubles. Leliana's determination will of course face opposition from said zealot parties clinging to past. They need to go for any positive change to happen. 

 

Even if I take your word for it, Gaspard was the aggressor here. Celene was ruling Orlais well enough, nobles thought its a good idea to give a warmonger enough power to usurp the throne, Gaspard had no real cause for starting the war other than "muh birthright".

[Steelcan]

 

Even if I take your word for it, Gaspard was the aggressor here. Celene was ruling Orlais well enough, nobles thought its a good idea to give a warmonger enough power to usurp the throne, Gaspard had no real cause for starting the war other than "muh birthright".

in a feudal world that birthright is kind of an important deal