223 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

in a feudal world that birthright is kind of an important deal

Damn right.

[MisterJB]

Your only excuse, let me repeat YOUR ONLY EXCUSE is Leliana is "not believable". There is not a single thing wrong with what she does for Thedas. Every single reform of her are in good direction.

According to you and your morality. I can point out things that are wrong from an objective viewpoint and on principle.

And the fact that it couldn't happen in any realistic way, of course.

[Lulupab]

According to you and your morality. I can point out things that are wrong from an objective viewpoint and on principle.

And the fact that it couldn't happen in any realistic way, of course.

 

Your first sentence contradicts your second. You think it cannot work in a realistic way because you base this whole argument based on your own version of Thedas that you think can work, and sure you could argue the same with me but the devs have written this and no its not a rushed thing. Mage "freedom" ending was leaked a year before release, so if you thought that it could never happen, that's your misconception because clearly it was always intended to happen, or in this case be an option. I could start a very long debate with how Leliana goals are vastly superior based on the system she is trying to create, such as not letting any single organization/person having too much power. Also tell me what you find immoral about Leliana, and more specifically why its more immoral than other candidates?

 

Most of your "complaints" about it are ambiguous at best just like the epilogue. You have zero information about how the college operates and the only thing made certain in the epilogue is the fact that its working and receiving acceptance from people. Yet you complain about it as if you've been a member for a decade.

 

The Chantry that failed spectacularly and had zero role in defeating Corypheus and actually hindered the efforts of inquisition needs to be changed, from top to bottom. Leliana does that by rededicating it to charity and allowing all races to join. Andraste certainly didn't discriminate, and if elves could became Templars, they should be able to become clerics as well. It will certainly help with slums full of elves without a job (not like they can be anything but servants anyhow)

 

She allows the seekers to operate if you decide to let Cassandra reform them and since Leliana disbands Templars, the majority join the seekers and some join the Inquisition. This way this new promising group of seekers gets the highest number of recruits in comparison to other divine candidates.

 

You can get the perspective from many people in the game that the circles didn't really work and needed to either go and get good amount of reforms, same with how Templars operated because their very existence is made to seem unnecessary as the old seekers fooled both the mages and templars by lying Lyrium is needed for Templar abilities and always knowing there is a cure for tranquility. Templars were used as expendables to keep the seeker recruits in smaller numbers to be easier to control, while in fact Templars could become immune to possession like Seekers, gain Templars abilities and not become addicted and get paranoid, obsessed and sometimes eventually demented by its side effects. So much for "holy" and "righteousness", more like tools used by their betters.

 

Overall, Leliana and Cassandra are the renaissance Thedas needs. Leliana goes though with determination and Cassandra with caution. But their goals leads to same place, not giving a single organization/person too much power, reforming many things and more importantly fixing Chantry's bloody mess. 

 

You do realize Cass and Cole banter reveals Lambert wanted to seize power and create a dictatorship long before any of this? By bringing the divine down from power. Also Cole who has been quite accurate with his reading of people said Lambert had zero guilt when he killed people, specially when he cut Evangeline down. He said Lambert actually enjoyed hurting people and all he could think about was power. Fiona was not the only asunder character who was exposed, Lambert is almost a mustache twirling villain, well emphasize on almost. Again this goes back to my oldest argument that damaged people and war veterans shouldn't be in high powers such as Lord Seeker or Knight commander. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Best Divine if Allying with Templars is Vivienne.

[Valerius]

Your first sentence contradicts your second. You think it cannot work in a realistic way because you base this whole argument based on your own version of Thedas that you think can work, and sure you could argue the same with me but the devs have written this and no its not a rushed thing. Mage "freedom" ending was leaked a year before release, so if you thought that it could never happen, that's your misconception because clearly it was always intended to happen, or in this case be an option. I could start a very long debate with how Leliana goals are vastly superior based on the system she is trying to create, such as not letting any single organization/person having too much power. Also tell me what you find immoral about Leliana, and more specifically why its more immoral than other candidates?
 
Most of your "complaints" about it are ambiguous at best just like the epilogue. You have zero information about how the college operates and the only thing made certain in the epilogue is the fact that its working and receiving acceptance from people. Yet you complain about it as if you've been a member for a decade.
 
The Chantry that failed spectacularly and had zero role in defeating Corypheus and actually hindered the efforts of inquisition needs to be changed, from top to bottom. Leliana does that by rededicating it to charity and allowing all races to join. Andraste certainly didn't discriminate, and if elves could became Templars, they should be able to become clerics as well. It will certainly help with slums full of elves without a job (not like they can be anything but servants anyhow)
 
She allows the seekers to operate if you decide to let Cassandra reform them and since Leliana disbands Templars, the majority join the seekers and some join the Inquisition. This way this new promising group of seekers gets the highest number of recruits in comparison to other divine candidates.
 
You can get the perspective from many people in the game that the circles didn't really work and needed to either go and get good amount of reforms, same with how Templars operated because their very existence is made to seem unnecessary as the old seekers fooled both the mages and templars by lying Lyrium is needed for Templar abilities and always knowing there is a cure for tranquility. Templars were used as expendables to keep the seeker recruits in smaller numbers to be easier to control, while in fact Templars could become immune to possession like Seekers, gain Templars abilities and not become addicted and get paranoid, obsessed and sometimes eventually demented by its side effects. So much for "holy" and "righteousness", more like tools used by their betters.
 
Overall, Leliana and Cassandra are the renaissance Thedas needs. Leliana goes though with determination and Cassandra with caution. But their goals leads to same place, not giving a single organization/person too much power, reforming many things and more importantly fixing Chantry's bloody mess. 
 
You do realize Cass and Cole banter reveals Lambert wanted to seize power and create a dictatorship long before any of this? By bringing the divine down from power. Also Cole who has been quite accurate with his reading of people said Lambert had zero guilt when he killed people, specially when he cut Evangeline down. He said Lambert actually enjoyed hurting people and all he could think about was power. Fiona was not the only asunder character who was exposed, Lambert is almost a mustache twirling villain, well emphasize on almost. Again this goes back to my oldest argument that damaged people and war veterans shouldn't be in high powers such as Lord Seeker or Knight commander.

So I understand that by allying with the templars and making lelianna divine, and telling cullen to stop taking lyrium, most templars follow his path and disband the Templar order while joining Cassandra seekers. However, what the heck happens to mages now? At least in cassandras role as divine she gains some templars while many stay with the inquisition. With her the tenplar order stays alive, the seekers are rebuilt, mages are brough into circles with my power, and she openly claims support for the inquisition, ushering in a golden age.

[Lulupab]

So I understand that by allying with the templars and making lelianna divine, and telling cullen to stop taking lyrium, most templars follow his path and disband the Templar order while joining Cassandra seekers. However, what the heck happens to mages now? At least in cassandras role as divine she gains some templars while many stay with the inquisition. With her the tenplar order stays alive, the seekers are rebuilt, mages are brough into circles with my power, and she openly claims support for the inquisition, ushering in a golden age.

 

With Leliana the college is formed but with albeit way too few mages.

 

The Templar order is redundant if Seekers are rebuilt, specially if they stop taking Lyrium. Both of them existing may lead to trouble. I mean how would you separate their duties from each other? And do remember that Seekers would be more useful than Templars who don't take Lyrium.

 

Although I can see how Cassandra appeals more to templar fans, but Leliana is not bad either as long as you have the seekers so that disbanded Templars can continue their duties there which is better for them, specially if they stopped taking Lyrium.

[Bigdoser]

So I understand that by allying with the templars and making lelianna divine, and telling cullen to stop taking lyrium, most templars follow his path and disband the Templar order while joining Cassandra seekers. However, what the heck happens to mages now? At least in cassandras role as divine she gains some templars while many stay with the inquisition. With her the tenplar order stays alive, the seekers are rebuilt, mages are brough into circles with my power, and she openly claims support for the inquisition, ushering in a golden age.

Think about it like this with Leliana as divine Cass pretty much turns the seekers into the paladins of the series since they are now about "Justice for all". So all those templars you conscripted either stay with the inquisition or join up with Cass's new order of seekers. Plus those templars who do join the seekers now don't have to worry about withdrawal and being drug addicts since they will get their abilities through a new process. 

 

The whole point of what samson did was because EVERYONE uses the templars and throws them aside like tools and being used as glorified watchdogs. Mages and templars are victims of the old system and with the leliana divine + seeker rebuilt + getting cullen to get of the drugs. 

 

Turns the templars into what I personally feel they should of been all along which is justice for all. 

 

Well that's how I see it in simple terms. 

[Valerius]

So if I side with the templars and get Leliana the seekers become the new peacekeepers of the world while the mages (although there aren't many) try to build a college?

[Lulupab]

So if I side with the templars and get Leliana the seekers become the new peacekeepers of the world while the mages (although there aren't many) try to build a college?

 

Yes.

[Bigdoser]

Yup indeed that is what happens.

[Valerius]

Hmm that seems alright but what's tempting me is cassandra as divine with allying templars makes it a golden age for southern thedas according to the epilogue.

[Lulupab]

Hmm that seems alright but what's tempting me is cassandra as divine with allying templars makes it a golden age for southern thedas according to the epilogue.

 

More like a golden age for Templars, the mage issue is unresolved. The mage issue is always unresolved with Cassandra unless you side with mages and conscript them, bright hand is best for mages if you Cassandra.

[Valerius]

More like a golden age for Templars, the mage issue is unresolved. The mage issue is always unresolved with Cassandra unless you side with mages and conscript them, bright hand is best for mages if you Cassandra.

May I ask what your preferred ending was?

[SgtSteel91]

Hmm that seems alright but what's tempting me is cassandra as divine with allying templars makes it a golden age for southern thedas according to the epilogue.

 

If you're allying with Templars then, yeah, Cassandra is the preferred Divine. Doing that even makes it more likely to get her elected, too.

[Lulupab]

May I ask what your preferred ending was?

 

I haven't decided yet, you can't get everyone happy with any ending. I'm leaning towards hardened Leliana though, her epilogue implies the unity she maintains lasts longer than unhardened Leliana. It doesn't matter who you side with when it comes to Leliana, mages and Templars get the same treatment, only their numbers are different. However I always make Templars stop taking Lyrium and always make Cassandra reform the seekers for better purposes. These affect the ending in a good way, all of them.

[Master Warder Z_]

Elfroot o.o

[Master Warder Z_]

o.o Justice shall be tempered by mercy.

[Lulupab]

I have to agree. Except the hardened part. I just care about her too much (her own mental health I mean.. she's effective either way).

 

If someone likes oldschool Templars though, Vivienne is probably the best.. It even sounds like they go back to their addictions. I can't tell. That's not a good thing to me though haha..

 

Vivienne is born in a wrong place lol, she would make a perfect magister. Her manipulations, the handling of Templars and more importantly killing her own kind to remain in power are all what makes a good magister.

 

I care about Leliana too, but sadly while I believe she will go Justinia's way, unhardened Leliana will face the problems Justinia faced and she will use her methods and on grand scheme Justinia needed to be a bit more ruthless and and because she wasn't people used her. Well tbh Leliana is already hardened in DA:I you either choose to keep her hardened or you soften her. 

[Kinsz]

I actually trust Vivienne more or less.. I'm more concerned about what kind of precedent she sets. What happens when the next mage comes along, and builds on her work?

If/when the next Mage comes along and she/he has the qualification necessary to do the job at hand then you let them have it, at least that's how i see it, my inquisitor doesn't discriminate in my Thedas you get what you deserve good or bad.

[Jackums]

As for the "best" choice for Divine, in terms of the stability of Thedas and rights for mages, Cass is definitely the one of the three I'd put my money on. Vivienne exhibits greater control, and Leliana is more progressive, but Cass has a half-way of the two; progressive but cautious. If you'd prefer change at a slower pace, as to ease the population into it, she's the ideal candidate, IMO.

 

This is not to take away from the other candidates, though. I personally got Leliana on my first playthrough, based on choices I made in my own mindset, with no metagaming. And I'm sure Vivienne appeals to people on both sides, as she simultaneously maintains a traditional Circle/Templar system, whilst also allowing mages to gain rank and privilege they didn't have access to prior.
 

I haven't decided yet, you can't get everyone happy with any ending. I'm leaning towards hardened Leliana though, her epilogue implies the unity she maintains lasts longer than unhardened Leliana. It doesn't matter who you side with when it comes to Leliana, mages and Templars get the same treatment, only their numbers are different. However I always make Templars stop taking Lyrium and always make Cassandra reform the seekers for better purposes. These affect the ending in a good way, all of them.

 Is the College of Enchanters actually mentioned in Leliana's epilogue if you allied with the templars?
 

I actually trust Vivienne more or less.. I'm more concerned about what kind of precedent she sets. What happens when the next mage comes along, and builds on her work?

I imagine Vivienne would be prepared for such an event and train herself a protege beforehand.

[Master Warder Z_]

I can't see vivi supporting another mage divine in the dragon age.

You saw the writing on the wall.