102 réponses à ce sujet

[ctd757]

I've noticed in a conversation with Leiliana in Origins and Cassandra in Inquisition they have asked my Dalish character how he feels about the Maker I always say I believe in the Elven Gods. They both make it seem like it's cool to believe in Elven Gods and the Maker.

Also in the Hinterlands an Elf with a sick mother is with a cult of Andrastians. As a Dalish I could convince him to go home and I think he believes in both. So I'm wondering in future games could we see a possible fusing of the Chant and Elven beliefs?

[Mims]

Interestingly, Mother Giselle is also open to the idea that elven gods could be aspects of the maker.

 

Of course, historically religion has always attempted to absorb or co-opt pagan religions by creating similar faith bridges. It is likely a mixture of both. Legitimate curiosity, and a desire to draw elves towards Andrasteism. 

[Colonelkillabee]

I don't see why there'd need to be any change, the chantry already acknowledged the existence of the old gods. Which were elven anyway.

 

Making a little room for the existence of more minor gods wouldn't take much.

[LobselVith8]

Interestingly, Mother Giselle is also open to the idea that elven gods could be aspects of the maker.

 

Of course, historically religion has always attempted to absorb or co-opt pagan religions by creating similar faith bridges. It is likely a mixture of both. Legitimate curiosity, and a desire to draw elves towards Andrasteism. 

 

Yeah, Giselle really pushes Inquisitor Lavellan toward the Andrastian faith, even if he makes it clear that he has his own gods, and simply doesn't follow the Maker.

 

I don't see much point to a synthesis of the two religions; they're quite different in their views. As Merrill said, "Your 'Maker' is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours."

[Steelcan]

Andrastianism doesn't make the claim that the Maker is the only god to my knowledge.  It allows for the existence of lesser "gods" such as the Tevinter Old Gods

 

I even seem to recall, but I wouldn't know where to look that the Tevinters of old acknowledged the existence of the Maker but did not worship him, but I may be mis-remembering something

[TeraBat]

A true syncretism would be difficult, as the Maker doesn't really allow for incorporating a pantheon. It's really hard to blend a monotheistic religion with a polytheistic one. There's some syncretism with Catholic belief (like in voudoun), but largely because the Catholic saints lend themselves well to that sort of thing - just rebrand your local gods as saints and it all hangs together fairly well. But as far as I know, there's no tradition of sainthood among the Chantry. 

 

The other problem is that the Chantry actively betrayed the elves by calling their Exalted March. Yes, yes, it was an unfortunate misunderstanding - but it was an unfortunate misunderstanding answered with war and destruction. The elves who follow their pantheon aren't likely to accept Chantry doctrine so easily after that. 

[Steelcan]

A true syncretism would be difficult, as the Maker doesn't really allow for incorporating a pantheon. It's really hard to blend a monotheistic religion with a polytheistic one. There's some syncretism with Catholic belief (like in voudoun), but largely because the Catholic saints lend themselves well to that sort of thing - just rebrand your local gods as saints and it all hangs together fairly well. But as far as I know, there's no tradition of sainthood among the Chantry. 

 

The other problem is that the Chantry actively betrayed the elves by calling their Exalted March. Yes, yes, it was an unfortunate misunderstanding - but it was an unfortunate misunderstanding answered with war and destruction. The elves who follow their pantheon aren't likely to accept Chantry doctrine so easily after that. 

the difference is that Andrastianism is not a truly monotheistic religion, it allows for other powerful magical beings, but it says that they did not create the physical world or the Fade, and that the Maker spoke again through Andraste

 

And yes their are saints in it

 

It wasn't a betrayal, the elves were battering at the gates of Val Royeaux before the Exalted March was called, it was neither a betrayal nor unjustified

[LobselVith8]

It could easily be said that the elves betrayed the Chantry.

 

The point was that the Dalish are unlikely to convert; I doubt it was an invitation to turn this thread into another debate.

 

Just when exactly did they start reviving "that old time religion"? Was it always an agreement with Shartan/Andraste that this could happen? Or did the elves of the Dales just start doing it over time? Like maybe some ansty Keeper rose up and started preaching a new message of Arlathan, and converted others (maybe it's why the Dalish understanding is so faulty to this day.. and they don't even know what their vallaslin really meant).

 

I don't think the elves ever followed the Andrastian faith, so they likely followed their own gods the entire time - as Gaider noted, the elves did write down some information despite being enslaved by the Imperium (which is why some elves were able to help create the Joining Ritual through their knowledge from Arlathan and help found the Grey Warden Order).

 

As for the Dalish being wrong about certain things that happened during the time of Elvhenan, centuries of slavery under the Imperium played a role in that.

[X Equestris]

A true syncretism would be difficult, as the Maker doesn't really allow for incorporating a pantheon. It's really hard to blend a monotheistic religion with a polytheistic one. There's some syncretism with Catholic belief (like in voudoun), but largely because the Catholic saints lend themselves well to that sort of thing - just rebrand your local gods as saints and it all hangs together fairly well. But as far as I know, there's no tradition of sainthood among the Chantry. 
 
The other problem is that the Chantry actively betrayed the elves by calling their Exalted March. Yes, yes, it was an unfortunate misunderstanding - but it was an unfortunate misunderstanding answered with war and destruction. The elves who follow their pantheon aren't likely to accept Chantry doctrine so easily after that.

The Chantry does have their own version of saints, called Anointed. Drakon was made one.

I'm not sure how Orlais was supposed to answer the attack on Red Crossing in any other way. To them, it looks like an unprovoked attack on their nation.

[Steelcan]

I don't think the elves ever followed the Andrastian faith, so they likely followed their own gods the entire time - as Gaider noted, the elves did write down some information despite being enslaved by the Imperium (which is why some elves were able to help create the Joining Ritual through their knowledge from Arlathan and help found the Grey Warden Order).

Shartan did, therefore its likely his immediate followers did as well

[Steelcan]

I'm not sure how Orlais was supposed to answer the attack on Red Crossing in any other way. To them, it looks like an unprovoked attack on their nation.

forget Red Crossing, the Exalted March wasn't called until well after that

[raging_monkey]

Cant we go one day without talking of red crossing or elf invalidy. Cant we just objectivly talk without repeating old habits XD

[LobselVith8]

I know it goes back far.. but I wonder where the self-assurance and confidence of the Dalish specifically came from. They're so proud.. and yet wrong. Some of their own leaders must've revived a bunch of b.s. and half-truths.

 

The Dalish exist on a continent where their religion is criminalized and some of their people live in poverty and destitution in Alienages. Through all the trials and tribulations the Dalish have faced, they refused to surrender their cultural values and religion. I suppose being proud of who they are is preferable to the alternative. I also don't see why you think their mistakes are intentional, as even Merrill points out that the Dalish have limited knowledge about the ancient past, and that they simply don't know certain things - even the fall of Arlathan is described by Keeper Gisharel as a 'legend' that could be wrong.

[Steelcan]

and some of their people live in poverty and destitution in Alienages.

City Elves are not the same people as the Dalish, like at all

[Steelcan]

Cant we go one day without talking of red crossing or elf invalidy. Cant we just objectivly talk without repeating old habits XD

There can be no peace!  No peace with Romans Shemlen. Men of Stone and Iron and Lies!  THERE CAN BE ONLY WAR!

[LobselVith8]

I never said they were intentional. If anyone revived some of these teachings, they were b.s.ing themselves too.

 

Two thousand years of slavery and scraps of knowledge isn't going to give an entire group of people a complete picture about what their ancestors past was like. Mistakes were bound to happen, and as Merrill points out, even the Dalish admit their own limitations.

[raging_monkey]

There can be no peace!  No peace with Romans Shemlen. Men of Stone and Iron and Lies!  THERE CAN BE ONLY WAR!

damn here i was hoping for a truce for a few days XD

[Steelcan]

Two thousand years of slavery and scraps of knowledge isn't going to give an entire group of people a complete picture about what their ancestors past was like. Mistakes were bound to happen, and as Merrill points out, even the Dalish admit their own limitations.

but not their mistakes