47 réponses à ce sujet

[squidney2k1]

Revivals are too situational. Only time you should need to equip something like Revival or Rally is possibly during a Dragon fight.


I played around with giving Dorian some armor that reduces his HP to 12 and all dmg to 1, just to kill him over and over. Even though it's handy for Dorian to die and then go nuts, it's much more beneficial to keep him alive to be a constant force. Unless you can nuke every one before his spirit expires--which is rare--you only end up gimping yourself by being short a party member, or have a mage waste time reviving him. Plus that 60 sec cooldown makes it a 1-shot deal for 95% of fights.

Fast nuke dmg & being down 1 party member, vs a full sustainable effort and prolonged control...not a good trade-off, imo.

[GoodFella146]

if walking bomb doesnt have anything over a damage spell, what does spirit mark have? Less damage less cost? Its kind of the same no?
Paniced enemies take additional damage from dots. The combination makes spirit bomb pretty painful, plus its spirit damage, and the utility of being able to rez everyone in a wipe is better then everything in the left side. You dont need to die often for revive. If it ever happens at all then its worth it. I dont get what a bugged damage skill and a couple crappy passives have over this alone.

 

Cost, passives, and getting a mook after a kill if you really want, though the only reason I take it is because it's fun.  All you get with Walking Bomb is more damage, which was the point, unless you think Walking Bomb is more fun I guess.  If you're looking for strictly damage then there are better ways to do it than either of these, so if I'm taking one then I'm taking the one that is more fun.

[teks]

Well it was clear the cards on these dots were wrong, so I didn't wanna go into a debate about the worth of spirit mark or spirit bomb until I knew what they did. Spirit mark sadly does half of the advertised damage. It still adds up to 900% damage, but spirit bomb adds up to 1600% damage. I feel like 1600% is getting into the territory of 'worthwhile to cast', but what is really interesting is some of the other things I found out.

 

Horror, first of all does appreciable damage on upgrade. A 300% damage AOE fear that sunders armor for its duration makes this a good spell. However, it will always do more then 300% damage to anything not immune to fear if you have the right passive. In that case it does 345% damage every time, unless the fear is broken.

 

Now, traditional advice has been cast horror then spirit bomb, no! All that does is break the fear and gives zero bonus damage. Instead, cast spirit bomb, and follow it up with horror. Now we got out bomb dealing 15% more damage on a feared enemy who is already taking 345% damage in total from horror.

 

But why stop there...

Instead of just casting spirit bomb, cast it on a group of enemies and immediately detonate it. The majority of spirit bombs damage takes place on cast, and on detonation anyway. Once we've detonated it on a group everyone other then the original target is taking that spirit bomb damage.Now we cast horror on all of them, and watch them run away while these dots melt their faces.

But thats not enough right?

Lets add some bonus damage to this. Lets pick up conductive current.

For your traditional mages this may give them up to a 25% damage bonus sometimes.

For the necromancer, this spell can give his DoTs a 50% damage bonus. I'm fairly certain he benefits from this on the dots after the spell has been cast, which makes him pretty much the only mage that can reap full benefits from this passive.

 

 

With a few passives, these 2 necromancer spells become very worth it. Not the most OP spells in the game, but definitely not slouches for damage.

[GoodFella146]

Well it was clear the cards on these dots were wrong, so I didn't wanna go into a debate about the worth of spirit mark or spirit bomb until I knew what they did. Spirit mark sadly does half of the advertised damage. It still adds up to 900% damage, but spirit bomb adds up to 1600% damage. I feel like 1600% is getting into the territory of 'worthwhile to cast', but what is really interesting is some of the other things I found out.

 

Horror, first of all does appreciable damage on upgrade. A 300% damage AOE fear that sunders armor for its duration makes this a good spell. However, it will always do more then 300% damage to anything not immune to fear if you have the right passive. In that case it does 345% damage every time, unless the fear is broken.

 

Now, traditional advice has been cast horror then spirit bomb, no! All that does is break the fear and gives zero bonus damage. Instead, cast spirit bomb, and follow it up with horror. Now we got out bomb dealing 15% more damage on a feared enemy who is already taking 345% damage in total from horror.

 

But why stop there...

Instead of just casting spirit bomb, cast it on a group of enemies and immediately detonate it. The majority of spirit bombs damage takes place on cast, and on detonation anyway. Once we've detonated it on a group everyone other then the original target is taking that spirit bomb damage.Now we cast horror on all of them, and watch them run away while these dots melt their faces.

But thats not enough right?

Lets add some bonus damage to this. Lets pick up conductive current.

For your traditional mages this may give them up to a 25% damage bonus sometimes.

For the necromancer, this spell can give his DoTs a 50% damage bonus. I'm fairly certain he benefits from this on the dots after the spell has been cast, which makes him pretty much the only mage that can reap full benefits from this passive.

 

 

With a few passives, these 2 necromancer spells become very worth it. Not the most OP spells in the game, but definitely not slouches for damage.

 

Yeah I mean I understand all of that but the point is that there are much better ways of dealing damage.  So then if this is not going to be about damage then what is it about?  I say what is fun to cast.  Horror and Spirit Mark are fun to cast, with Horror being a lot more situationally useful.

 

The damage on Horror I feel is negligible and like I said earlier I think it's actually better to not take it if you use Full Draw.

[zeypher]

Also AI does not do manual detonations. Ive just accepted his tree is not good for AI to handle, so i just ignore it and put points in the basic trees. He still is good with that setup. 

[teks]

My point is 'there are better ways of doing damage' isn't  true. You made good arguments on the necro abilities, but your missing a lot of stuff here. I can't argue with what you find is fun, but fun isn't whats best, and thats what I'm working on. What is best for a necromancer.

 

Walking bomb has a knockdown effect BTW. Try this combo.

1. Get full necro, and conductive current
2. Cast walking bomb on a group of enemies
3. Immediatly detonate walking bomb. This will knock them all down
4. Cast horror on the group
5. Watch them run in terror as their faces melt.

This combo places walking bomb on a group of enemies, plus it knocks them down, plus it adds an additional 345% damage horror, plus it buffs each walking bomb damage tick 15%, plus it fears them. On top of this, everything is buffed by conductive current, which can easily be 40% additional damage on all those ticks. Now throw spirit mark on whatever before they die just for kicks.

 

I'm no master caster, but these numbers look pretty big to me.

[teks]

Also AI does not do manual detonations. Ive just accepted his tree is not good for AI to handle, so i just ignore it and put points in the basic trees. He still is good with that setup. 

He does fine, he doesn't need to manually detonate. There is no class the AI handles perfectly anyway. As long as he puts the bomb on the same guy everyone else is attacking, it'll detonate, and spread, and gain damage as the AI burns mana. I put walking bomb on perferred so that he casts horror after the bomb.

[Dervim]

...or you could just pick Viviene and not die...Ever...Oh! And you could pick Revival+KE Focus that is also AOE, only it also heals, in addition to reviving...

 

 Or you could just turn your char into KE and dump the party altogether...

[Dervim]

 But yeah, Dorrian is fun as hell.

[GoodFella146]

My point is 'there are better ways of doing damage' isn't  true. You made good arguments on the necro abilities, but your missing a lot of stuff here. I can't argue with what you find is fun, but fun isn't whats best, and thats what I'm working on. What is best for a necromancer.

 

Walking bomb has a knockdown effect BTW. Try this combo.

1. Get full necro, and conductive current
2. Cast walking bomb on a group of enemies
3. Immediatly detonate walking bomb. This will knock them all down
4. Cast horror on the group
5. Watch them run in terror as their faces melt.

This combo places walking bomb on a group of enemies, plus it knocks them down, plus it adds an additional 345% damage horror, plus it buffs each walking bomb damage tick 15%, plus it fears them. On top of this, everything is buffed by conductive current, which can easily be 40% additional damage on all those ticks. Now throw spirit mark on whatever before they die just for kicks.

 

I'm no master caster, but these numbers look pretty big to me.

 

Lmao what's best for a necromancer is to not be a necromancer though.  I don't see it as a class that can dominate the board through it's class abilities like the others can.  I will try your suggestion, however.  I'll write back in a bit.

[teks]

...or you could just pick Viviene and not die...Ever...Oh! And you could pick Revival+KE Focus that is also AOE, only it also heals, in addition to reviving...

 

 Or you could just turn your char into KE and dump the party altogether...

Lol, yeah, I never tried KE. I heard how strong it was, and said no thanks. Its much more fun trying to work with the spells the community feels are bad, at least for me.

[teks]

Lmao what's best for a necromancer is to not be a necromancer though.  I don't see it as a class that can dominate the board through it's class abilities like the others can.  I will try your suggestion, however.  I'll write back in a bit.

Yeah, try it. Walking bomb does a ton of damage as well as multiple knockdowns. First from the manual detonation, then another series of knockdowns from each secondary detonation.

[GoodFella146]

Yeah, try it. Walking bomb does a ton of damage as well as multiple knockdowns. First from the manual detonation, then another series of knockdowns from each secondary detonation.

 

Alright so this is what I just tried: My staff does 130 damage per second (48 fire damage with a +32 rune, 25% attack overall).  I took the full Necromancer tree and Conductive Current like you said, then ran up to a group solo (so I could see my true damage numbers without party interference).  I threw a Walking Bomb in the middle of 3 Freemen enemies (1 captain and 2 veterans, bomb targeted on the middle enemy which was the captain) and proceeded to run the order of operations like you said.  The initial cast didn't knock him down, but I then detonated the bomb immediately, which did knock everyone down.  Then I threw a Horror on the captain and 1 of the veterans (the other 1 got thrown much too far away to fit in the Horror area of effect).  They ran around taking some damage, then I got overwhelmed because a knockdown doesn't disable them very long and I didn't have anything good left to cast.

 

Final numbers on how much damage they took: 

 

-Freemen Veteran (level 15) 6282/6973, so 691 damage taken.  (not hit by the Horror spell)

-Freemen Veteran (level 15) 5496/6973, so 1477 damage taken.  (hit by the Horror spell)

-Freemen Captain (level 15) 6662/7942, so 1280 damage taken.  (hit by the Horror spell)

 

That's terrible damage output, with almost no field control at all.  This is why nobody relies on this class as a main damage output.  Like I said though, Horror has it's uses and fortunately is at the top of the tree.  Then if you can afford it, Spirit Mark is fun but certainly not a reliable heavy damage producer which is why I never use it like that.  So either you're way off or I'm not seeing what you're doing at all?  I play on nightmare with friendly fire on.

[teks]

That is terrible damage output. I'm getting much more, plus the secondary explosions knockdown as well, plus your complaining about mana after casting 2 spells. After horror was done, you have mana. You casted 2 spells.

 

Besides that, getting overwhelmed...bring a tank. Cast mind blast. Don't go solo. It seems likea recipe for suicide thinking 2 spells were gonna win everything on nightmare. Its like someone coming on saying fire mine sucks because they casted it, and everything didn't die.

 

Its hard to tell what your doing and what I'm doing because all the damage you do depends on too many things. Your staff is weaksauce compared to mine (no offense, older character), and that makes it hard to judge. I mean 48 fire damage as a base isn't gonna lead to very deadly spells.

 

EDIT: Nevermind about the staff, mines not that much better. On my new character its only 35 DPS. I'll try to just post a video.

[GoodFella146]

That is terrible damage output. I'm getting much more, plus the secondary explosions knockdown as well, plus your complaining about mana after casting 2 spells. After horror was done, you have mana. You casted 2 spells.

 

How do you do more damage then that?  I ran exactly what you said.  You're on Nightmare?

 

This was in the Emerald graves and none of those enemies have any resistances that pop up on screen.

 

Edit:  About the staff..  Of course it's weak I'm not fully leveled in this playthrough.  My level isn't all the way up yet.

[Dervim]

Lol, yeah, I never tried KE. I heard how strong it was, and said no thanks. Its much more fun trying to work with the spells the community feels are bad, at least for me.

 

 

 True enough. I've went with KE for my mage and the game got suddenly boring. Then again-the combat never really was that fun to me, in DAI.

[teks]

How do you do more damage then that?  I ran exactly what you said.  You're on Nightmare?

 

This was in the Emerald graves and none of those enemies have any resistances that pop up on screen.

 

Edit:  About the staff..  Of course it's weak I'm not fully leveled in this playthrough.  My level isn't all the way up yet.

Lots of ways, remember before this you didn't even know the spell had any knockdown, let alone multiple knockdowns per cast, or that it spread even if the enemy wasn't killed. Your gear is clearly gonna play a huge role, and your skill with the spell. Timing the detonate to knockdown the most guys at the right moment, and then keeping them together when they  all explode. Its not something meant to be played solo, which you strongly hinted you were. I understand you doing so for testing, but saying enemies swarmed you afterward is silly when you should have a tank pulling agro during all this. In fact, its important that they do swarm, so that they are all together when the second walking bomb detonates.

 

I was running around looking for a nice clutch of enemies with my new character. I took control of dorrian, cast walking bomb on a guy, waited until everyone was all grouped up on my tank, and detonated, throwing everything on the ground, then feared. This gave everyone a ton of breathing room right away. Then a few seconds after the fear came out and all the enemies reengaged they all simultaneously exploded on each other. Another knockdown, and massive damage.

Since your looking for fun, I thought you'd enjoy a spell you can actively play with while its active rather then button spam. Also, watching several enemies all explode at once is awesome.

 

And I'm still new with this. I don't even have a necromancer character (used my girlfriends character on tests ), but I thought I did a good enough job revealing several necromancer tricks noone even bothered to test because its not KE or something. I'm still working on the right combos of spells, what works best, how the character should be played.

 

I'm thinking right now about using heavy spirit spec, mind blast, and fade step. Both mind blast and fade step cost 0 mana anyway. I'm also looking into which enemies are best to make pets. I've found that animals are the worst, and the big guys are pretty bad too. The damage is always the same, so its best to grab those with fast attack animations rather then those who look the most appealing.

[Sugram84]

Solas+Dorian is also fun dialogue, they have a bit of antagonizing between them over Elves/Tevinter, but they also nerd out about magic, like start talking all technical about respective techniques, it's pretty funny, especially Sera's exasperation over their conversation. "Two of you doesn't make it less weird!"

i laughed hard when BalackWall started to tease solas about spirits, u make friends with spirits, yes, do u ever become more then friends with them? & so on & on, turning that conversation he also indirectly asked from solas, that do have done... with them to when u become more then friends & how does it works, indirectly means he did not say it out like i did, but he did ask that LOL, in the end solas said to him, ur an ass & he laughed & said, who's being childish new

[teks]

 

this is a link to a quick video a made showing walking bomb. My computer is an AMD a-10 with no graphics card, so making these isn't easy . Dorrian is level 13 here, I think. Its not the best video, but the second walking bomb explosion is awesome, and noone can deny it .

I think Dorrians staff does 35 damage, and he has a 40% attack bonus. the nerve of my making fun of another guys staff when he has that pea shooter.

 

ALSO, Does anyone know why the second explosion to walking bomb always weakens? Could be a passive on a party member, I don't know, it seems to happen every time.

[GoodFella146]

Lots of ways, remember before this you didn't even know the spell had any knockdown, let alone multiple knockdowns per cast, or that it spread even if the enemy wasn't killed. Your gear is clearly gonna play a huge role, and your skill with the spell. Timing the detonate to knockdown the most guys at the right moment, and then keeping them together when they  all explode. Its not something meant to be played solo, which you strongly hinted you were. I understand you doing so for testing, but saying enemies swarmed you afterward is silly when you should have a tank pulling agro during all this. In fact, its important that they do swarm, so that they are all together when the second walking bomb detonates.

 

I was running around looking for a nice clutch of enemies with my new character. I took control of dorrian, cast walking bomb on a guy, waited until everyone was all grouped up on my tank, and detonated, throwing everything on the ground, then feared. This gave everyone a ton of breathing room right away. Then a few seconds after the fear came out and all the enemies reengaged they all simultaneously exploded on each other. Another knockdown, and massive damage.

Since your looking for fun, I thought you'd enjoy a spell you can actively play with while its active rather then button spam. Also, watching several enemies all explode at once is awesome.

 

And I'm still new with this. I don't even have a necromancer character (used my girlfriends character on tests ), but I thought I did a good enough job revealing several necromancer tricks noone even bothered to test because its not KE or something. I'm still working on the right combos of spells, what works best, how the character should be played.

 

I'm thinking right now about using heavy spirit spec, mind blast, and fade step. Both mind blast and fade step cost 0 mana anyway. I'm also looking into which enemies are best to make pets. I've found that animals are the worst, and the big guys are pretty bad too. The damage is always the same, so its best to grab those with fast attack animations rather then those who look the most appealing.

 

Even with the couple bonuses I didn't know it was still terrible.  I think I figured out what the difference is though below.

 

 

this is a link to a quick video a made showing walking bomb. My computer is an AMD a-10 with no graphics card, so making these isn't easy . Dorrian is level 13 here, I think. Its not the best video, but the second walking bomb explosion is awesome, and noone can deny it .

I think Dorrians staff does 35 damage, and he has a 40% attack bonus. the nerve of my making fun of another guys staff when he has that pea shooter.

 

ALSO, Does anyone know why the second explosion to walking bomb always weakens? Could be a passive on a party member, I don't know, it seems to happen every time.

 

Nice work on the video.  Now I can clearly see why we have two completely different scenarios.

 

You don't have friendly fire on so this completely changes everything.  You straight abuse the fact that your bomb does nothing to you, thus you get everything to cluster right on top of you.  Also, I like how you decide to pick the absolute most closed in area as possible.  Of course they are all going to blow each other up when they have nowhere to go.  What happens when they all scatter in random directions like literally every other area the rest of the game?  This really just proves what I'm saying even more honestly.

 

I mean I guess since you're abusing the no friendly fire aspect you can herd them all into a locked corner, so this must be what you're doing I guess?  All while your teammates can beat on them without drawback.  In my case they all just scattered off, hence my low damage numbers.

 

Pull of the Abyss and Static Cage don't need boxed in areas like this to be effective, and we all know Knight Enchanter can just solo the game outright.  Those three are all able to be used with friendly fire on if you play them correctly.  Not this, however.  So I don't think we can argue that Necromancer is weaker than those other options.

 

You did however prove that with friendly fire off then this class can actually be pretty decent when spec'd all the way, so good job there.  That is definitely something.

 

Edit: I think I can recommend Necromancer as an option now if they have friendly fire off.  Again nice job.

[teks]

I'm sorry I can't play with friendly fire. Its like, the thing effected by it are completely random, and too many abilities just can't work with it on. I figured friendly fire must not have effected this spell since you were using it. I think this spell would be suicide with FF.

 

I totally agree with what your saying about the area. Would you believe I just randomly walked there unintentionally?

 

In the video, the enemies did scatter. They ran away, and then the fear wore off and they ran back in to fight. The delay seems to be enough where most guys are able to get back on the tank before they explode. The fear only lasts 6 seconds, while the bomb takes 12 seconds to explode, so there is plenty of time for the enemy to run in fear, and still come back intime to explode all over everything. Situations where it works out in the vid aren't common. There are many fights where the enemies just don't like to group up.

 

I'm gonna use grapple on my tank, and grapple targets into fights before they explode. that would be entertaining.

 

What concerns me is if runes work right now. Are the DoTs effected by runes? It already hurts that they can't crit.

[GoodFella146]

I'm sorry I can't play with friendly fire. Its like, the thing effected by it are completely random, and too many abilities just can't work. I figured friendly fire must not have effected this spell.

 

It's not random lol, they just missed a few things is all.  People make it sound way worse than it really is.

[teks]

I used to play origins with friendly fire, but I also used to control my teammates diligently. In this game I just let the AI do whatever. The game is too easy though. I just hope they can make difficulty mods like they did in origins. If enemies had high level scaling, or were numerous. That would be great.