951 réponses à ce sujet

[themageguy]

So if I want the college of enchanters I need Leilana and ally with the mages, and for the Bright Hand, Cass as divine and conscript the mages? Will I get the bright hand if I encourage Cass to reform the seekers? (I personally believe they are a better option than having Templars, and let's face it, it's cool having a spirit grant you powers).

Currently working on my pro chantry, pro circle knight enchanter with aims to put Vivienne on the throne.

Seriously, it's a blast! I didn't think playing a loyalist would be so much fun!

[Kinsz]

Problems will arise in the future no matter who is the Divine to believe otherwise is just being naive, if this was the last DA game then we could believe that hardened Leliana has managed to maintain stability permanently but it is not so she will have a lot more silencing to do.

[Jackums]

Currently working on my pro chantry, pro circle knight enchanter with aims to put Vivienne on the throne.

Seriously, it's a blast! I didn't think playing a loyalist would be so much fun!

This was my second playthrough and from a story point of view, it was the most fun I'd had yet.

 

Though realistically I'd be more of a diplomatic libertarian/aequitarian.

[Kinsz]

I honestly think that Cassandra Divine has the most potential for long term reconciliation between mages and non-mages. While I appreciate Leliana's motivations her radicalism seems detrimental to the mage cause in the long run. I know Lulupab and her ilk will disagree (not starting a debate); I'm just making it known why I believe Cassandra is the best for mage relations. 

I agree, in the long run Cassandra as divine seem to be most sensible choice. We'll see what Bioware has in store for us but right now out of all the endings i believe leliana's is the one that has the higher chance of backfiring.

[Lulupab]

I try to avoid long debates as well, but before knowing any information and finishing my first playthrough which I ended up with hardened Leliana as divine I didn't see any sign of instability or backfire, unless the player tries to imagine it based on their own viewpoint and its understandable because all other divine options at least have a hint of something going wrong or signs of instability.

 

Allying with mages and making Cassandra a divine is pretty much a disaster for example. I don't see why Templars are needed when Lyrium is not even needed to gain their abilities and their addiction and its effects has played a major role in starting the whole mess. If Cassandra rebuilds the seekers, there is no more need for Templars and I find both of them existing problematic, how would you share the duties? With templars disbanded and great majority of them joining the seeker ranks where they can continue their duties, I see absolutely no need for Templar order. So when you say Leliana is towards mages, that's not really how I see it. All her changes benefits Thedas greatly, only their backfire attempt is seems to be troubling players. Also this basically makes Cassandra lord seeker, literally 2nd in command behind Leliana.

[Kinsz]

I try to avoid long debates as well, but before knowing any information and finishing my first playthrough which I ended up with hardened Leliana as divine I didn't see any sign of instability or backfire, unless the player tries to imagine it based on their own viewpoint and its understandable because all other divine options at least have a hint of something going wrong or signs of instability.

 

Allying with mages and making Cassandra a divine is pretty much a disaster for example. I don't see why Templars are needed when Lyrium is not even needed to gain their abilities and their addiction and its effects has played a major role in starting the whole mess. If Cassandra rebuilds the seekers, there is no more need for Templars and I find both of them existing problematic, how would you share the duties? With templars disbanded and great majority of them joining the seeker ranks where they can continue their duties, I see absolutely no need for Templar order. So when you say Leliana is towards mages, that's not really how I see it. All her changes benefits Thedas greatly, only their backfire attempt is seems to be troubling players. Also this basically makes Cassandra lord seeker, literally 2nd in command behind Leliana.

Leliana having to kill people to get her point across is a sign of instability and it will happen again we dont need the epilogue to tell us that. She will have things to overcome just like the other two Divine that much is a given , there is simply no way that its going to all be rainbows and unicorns for her from now on, absolutely none.

 

The circle not working had nothing ( well not much at least ) to do with Lyrium there were corrupt individuals who thought it ok to abuse their power i.e hurting innocent mages just because they could, Cassandra reforms the order in order to prevent that from happening again, the new templars are supposed to do what they were meant to do initially , which is to protect the mages from themselves and other people, while the previous order didnt do that properly there were a lot of mages who didnt make it easy as well , both sides are to blame, you could however argue that the templars should bare more responsibility but thats a debate for another day.

 

The seekers and the templars could coexist, i mean why not ? the templars job is to watch the mages while the seekers job is to make sure that the former are doing their job properly, it didnt work out very well because of the corruption at the very top of the organization hence the reform to make sure past mistakes arent repeated, it wont be easy to achieve this goal of course but it can be done in the long run.

 

I will maintain that the circles should remain,  young mages should be trained properly , they cannot be allowed too much freedom lest they burn everything around them . during their short stay in redcliff alone they managed to demonstrate why

a freehold in Rainesfere was burned to the ground simply because one mage couldnt control his ability

two farms outside of the village suffered crop losses and structural damage due to a frost spell gone wrong

5 villagers got injured by a lightning spell cast by a panicked young mage.

 

These are but a few examples who knows what else happened while they were roaming the lands of thedas during the rebellion. The mages who prove themselves capable could surely leave if they wish.

[Lulupab]

We have no idea how the college works, apart from the fact that the epilogue says the system is working and mages getting acceptance, so we can't really judge it before more information is revealed. The circle are mages teaching mages, nothing indicates college cannot be the same. Maybe the college is simply the circle renamed where mages are free after their education or something similar. You also forget that Templars stop taking Lyrium if you tell Cullen to stop, Templars who are not taking Lyrium are useless in watching over mages whereas the Seekers are not. Abusive templar's condition got worse because paranoia and obsession are confirmed effects of Lyrium which can sometimes lead to absolute dementia.

 

In Leliana as divine and Templars not taking Lyrium its best to let Cassandra rebuild seekers as all Templars will join Seekers.

 

Plus the hardened Leliana gives the vibe of "they resisted her but now its over", since mages are getting unprecedented acceptance over moths to come. I'm not saying its absolutely better than other divines, some people think Leliana is less believable than others which is not true. She is strong and resourceful, more than other divines so she easily stopped opposition. Its Leliana and Josephine who run the Inquisition, Cullen is just means to an end.

[Lulupab]

I don't care about Leliana. You're not going to convince me Lulu, just like I'm not going to convince you.

 

That depends on what you think I'm trying to convince you about.

 

Am I trying to convince Leliana is better than Cassandra? No.

 

Can both of them work on same level? Yes.

[Kinsz]

We have no idea how the college works, apart from the fact that the epilogue says the system is working and mages getting acceptance, so we can't really judge it before more information is revealed. The circle are mages teaching mages, nothing indicates college cannot be the same. Maybe the college is simply the circle renamed where mages are free after their education or something similar. You also forget that Templars stop taking Lyrium if you tell Cullen to stop, Templars who are not taking Lyrium are useless in watching over mages whereas the Seekers are not. Abusive templar's condition got worse because paranoia and obsession are confirmed effects of Lyrium which can sometimes lead to absolute dementia.

 

In Leliana as divine and Templars not taking Lyrium its best to let Cassandra rebuild seekers as all Templars will join Seekers.

 

Plus the hardened Leliana gives the vibe of "they resisted her but now its over", since mages are getting unprecedented acceptance over moths to come. I'm not saying its absolutely better than other divines, some people think Leliana is less believable than others which is not true. She is strong and resourceful, more than other divines so she easily stopped opposition. Its Leliana and Josephine who run the Inquisition, Cullen is just means to an end.

I cant really tell what the Templars who stopped taking Lyrium are capable of , as far as i know nothing was said in that regard in DAI but you're right about the college, we do not know how it functions thus far so we should keep an open mind but if past experience is anything to go by , it wont be a smooth ride i mean if everything always went well we wouldnt have a game to play would we?

 

I dont buy your claim about the abusive templars , correct me if im wrong but templars only suffer Lyrium  ( regular Lyrium that is ) related issues when they stop gaining access to it ? no , as far as we know the circle templars didnt have that issue, they were able to access the require dose everytime they needed it. The templars who were abusive were so because they were horrible people not because of Lyrium.

 

As for Leliana's success as a divine well agree to disagree, i dont think it will work but i have no evidence to back my claim at the moment so well see what happens in DA 4.

 

PS - Cullen was just as important as Leliana and Josephine for the Inquisition , he ran the army after all.

[Jackums]

I honestly think that Cassandra Divine has the most potential for long term reconciliation between mages and non-mages. While I appreciate Leliana's motivations her radicalism seems detrimental to the mage cause in the long run. I know Lulupab and her ilk will disagree (not starting a debate); I'm just making it known why I believe Cassandra is the best for mage relations. 

Technically, based purely off of canon material, Leliana's ending had the most beneficial impact for the mages, with there being "unprecedented acceptance" of mages throughout Thedas. The other endings may eventually result in such, but that's all theoretical, whereas the benefits of Leliana becoming Divine are sure and established fact.

 

Leliana having to kill people to get her point across is a sign of instability and it will happen again we dont need the epilogue to tell us that.

It's not necessary at all if you unharden her, and such an ending is canonically just as successful as any other. The only arguments against a diplomatic Leliana are all based on headcanon without any basis of proof.

 

I think that the crux of the matter lies with what freedoms mages should be allowed after they graduate from apprenticeship. They shouldn't have to fight tooth and nail to leave the Circle Tower once they've proven that they could handle themselves.

The idea I had was to have the Circle of Magi remain in place, and be mandatory for all young and untrained mages. Basically like the equivalent of elementary and high school in real life. Mages will attend the Circle until they get to a point of proficient control over their magic, at which point they graduate, though they'll be allowed family visits and won't be cut off from the outside world as with the previous system. Then they go on to join the College of Enchanters, which is the real life equivalent of college/university. The College will have equal freedoms for mages as any other citizen of Thedas has, and will teach more advanced forms of magic. The College won't be policed and will be entirely autonomous, as every mage that's a part of the College will have been deemed proficient enough to control their magic, having come from one of the Circles.

 

Thus, the Templar Order will continue existing to protect the mages in-training within the Circles, but mages won't have to feel caged as upon graduating, they'll be free to leave and join the College, and live as they choose.

[wright1978]

I honestly think that Cassandra Divine has the most potential for long term reconciliation between mages and non-mages. While I appreciate Leliana's motivations her radicalism seems detrimental to the mage cause in the long run. I know Lulupab and her ilk will disagree (not starting a debate); I'm just making it known why I believe Cassandra is the best for mage relations. 

 

Personally i don't agree, she seems very much a short-term reconciliation of the issues behind the rebellion in the first place.

Leliana's is the one that has potential for long-term solution but riskier especially in the short term.

[Lulupab]

I cant really tell what the Templars who stopped taking Lyrium are capable of , as far as i know nothing was said in that regard in DAI but you're right about the college, we do not know how it functions thus far so we should keep an open mind but if past experience is anything to go by , it wont be a smooth ride i mean if everything always went well we wouldnt have a game to play would we?

 

I dont buy your claim about the abusive templars , correct me if im wrong but templars only suffer Lyrium  ( regular Lyrium that is ) related issues when they stop gaining access to it ? no , as far as we know the circle templars didnt have that issue, they were able to access the require dose everytime they needed it. The templars who were abusive were so because they were horrible people not because of Lyrium.

 

As for Leliana's success as a divine well agree to disagree, i dont think it will work but i have no evidence to back my claim at the moment so well see what happens in DA 4.

 

PS - Cullen was just as important as Leliana and Josephine for the Inquisition , he ran the army after all.

 

The side effects of Lyrium are known if codex is any judge, Paranoia and obsession are very common among Lyrium users, dementia is rare however but with time the chance of it significantly increases. Do you remember that Templar that remembered nothing in front of Denerim Chantry on DA:O? Like that. Pretty much everyone knows that Lyrium can mess you up if ingested.

 

Leliana and Josephine provide the authority to act, they also fill the Inquisition coffers which enables an army to exist. In simpler words gathering dogs to fight for you is a very easy job in comparison to getting favor of every noble and have continental influence. Also Leliana is as responsible as Cassandra for Inquisition and Cass stops meddling in Inquisition affairs after Haven. This is not even about each character but the importance of intrigue and secrets. For example its Josephine who gets an invitation to Orlesian ball, an event in which only secrets and intrigue can save Orlais and not even the biggest army at hand can. Or its the spies who detect Corypheus at arbor wilds. These are what runs the Inquisition, with that much power and influence people will join and hence the army is formed and gets stronger. I mean don't get me wrong Cullen is not a bad commander, but Leliana and Josephine run the Inquisition, not him.

[Jaison1986]

Personally i don't agree, she seems very much a short-term reconciliation of the issues behind the rebellion in the first place.

Leliana's is the one that has potential for long-term solution but riskier especially in the short term.

 

I would say Leliana is like the mass effect vanguards "high risks, but high rewards". Cassandra tries to restore the old system and make it better, but nothing stops it from becoming corrupt again once Cassandra reign ends. Not saying Leliana is any better in that reguard. But at least with Leliana as the Divine, there is no way for the old abuses to ever come back.

[Kinsz]

The side effects of Lyrium are known if codex is any judge, Paranoia and obsession are very common among Lyrium users, dementia is rare however but with time the chance of it significantly increases. Do you remember that Templar that remembered nothing in front of Denerim Chantry on DA:O? Like that. Pretty much everyone knows that Lyrium can mess you up if ingested.

 

Leliana and Josephine provide the authority to act, they also fill the Inquisition coffers which enables an army to exist. In simpler words gathering dogs to fight for you is a very easy job in comparison to getting favor of every noble and have continental influence. Also Leliana is as responsible as Cassandra for Inquisition and Cass stops meddling in Inquisition affairs after Haven. This is not even about each character but the importance of intrigue and secrets. For example its Josephine who gets an invitation to Orlesian ball, an event in which only secrets and intrigue can save Orlais and not even the biggest army at hand can. Or its the spies who detect Corypheus at arbor wilds. These are what runs the Inquisition, with that much power and influence people will join and hence the army is formed and gets stronger. I mean don't get me wrong Cullen is not a bad commander, but Leliana and Josephine run the Inquisition, not him.

Ah yes i forgot about that guy, the one who hands you a necklace to give to his sister, anyways i still wouldnt attribute the abuse to Lyrium , there were many templars who have been taking Lyrium longer  than most yet they never abused the mages so for me it comes down to the abusers mosty being bad people.

 

As for the advisors to me they all play a significant role in shaping the Inquisition , for example if Cullen doesnt react the way he does at Haven there would be no Inquisition afterwards, yes Leli's spies give us the heads up on Corypheus's movement at the Arbor wild but its Cullen's army that wins us the battle , i value their work equally but i do see your point.

[MisterJB]

Technically, based purely off of canon material, Leliana's ending had the most beneficial impact for the mages, with there being "unprecedented acceptance" of mages throughout Thedas. The other endings may eventually result in such, but that's all theoretical, whereas the benefits of Leliana becoming Divine are sure and established fact.

Not at all. Even if we are to accept that ending as fact, "acceptance of mages" is not an objectively positive consequence for it can lead to negative results to people other than mages.

To put it plainly, if I were to write "King Alistair and Queen Anora offered sanctuary to the mage rebellion. For now, the mages enjoy acceptance in Redcliff." should we say the benefits of having granted them sanctuary are sure and established despite the fact it will lead to Tevinter being invited in, take over, expel Teagan, kill any who try to leave and behead Tranquils_

 

[Lulupab]

Not at all. Even if we are to accept that ending as fact, "acceptance of mages" is not an objectively positive consequence for it can lead to negative results to people other than mages.

To put it plainly, if I were to write "King Alistair and Queen Anora offered sanctuary to the mage rebellion. For now, the mages enjoy acceptance in Redcliff." should we say the benefits of having granted them sanctuary are sure and established despite the fact it will lead to Tevinter being invited in, take over, expel Teagan, kill any who try to leave and behead Tranquils_

 

That's a bit of stretch and false comparison since there is no "for now" in that scenario and its not limited to one city. In months to come mages see unprecedented acceptance and its includes every corner of Thedas. In Redcliff, the city was raided by Templars and people of redcliff and mages both died in the attack. There were news and evidence of Templar attack (faked by Alexius). Literally every single person in Redcliff thinks Templars will attack, feel free to ask around this time or notice how the city guard are training for defense against another attack. Just because people in redcliff along with the mages lack the hindsight that you do which is there is no invasion and it was all planted/ a farce, you can't think this us a usual thing.

 

Also I find it funny that if you side with Templars teagan never reaches Denerim to come with reinforcements, cannot beat time magic, sorry. Teagan was probably trapped in an infinite loop.