951 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

There is nothing indicating people with power will seek to increase it and gain influence over others?

 

Please take me to whatever planet you line on. Clearly, it's better than Earth.

 

So you do accepts tarts with crowns are dangerous than any magic? Good to know. Yes the mages will surely compete as they always have, but with each other. They cannot own land or titles outside of their institution so what's the point? The mages know that they can never win a war against whole none-mages so for their own safety they have to keep the few bad eggs in check.

[Jackums]

Grand Cleric assassinated, magic feared more than ever, mages lynched in the streets.

Divine assassinated in the same manner, mages siding with Tevinter, Venatori, Corypheus, the mage rebellion, etc; people accepting mages.

Not forced to tolerate them, outright accepting? Hand holding, kumbaya my Maker?

An authentic Fairy Tale ending and you want to tell me that not only could this realistically happen but it can last?

It did happen (in said ending). It's canon. Not to sound too blunt, but deal w/ it.

 

The ending also specifically states that said acceptance is "throughout Thedas," implying it's not isolated to any one or two nations.

 

You can dislike it, headcanon your own consequences, predict future problems; do all of that, but it's still established fact that there is unprecedented acceptance of mages throughout Thedas for the months that follow Leliana's ascension to Divine. It's black and white, inarguable fact.

[dragonflight288]

I try to avoid long debates as well, but before knowing any information and finishing my first playthrough which I ended up with hardened Leliana as divine I didn't see any sign of instability or backfire, unless the player tries to imagine it based on their own viewpoint and its understandable because all other divine options at least have a hint of something going wrong or signs of instability.

 

Allying with mages and making Cassandra a divine is pretty much a disaster for example. I don't see why Templars are needed when Lyrium is not even needed to gain their abilities and their addiction and its effects has played a major role in starting the whole mess. If Cassandra rebuilds the seekers, there is no more need for Templars and I find both of them existing problematic, how would you share the duties? With templars disbanded and great majority of them joining the seeker ranks where they can continue their duties, I see absolutely no need for Templar order. So when you say Leliana is towards mages, that's not really how I see it. All her changes benefits Thedas greatly, only their backfire attempt is seems to be troubling players. Also this basically makes Cassandra lord seeker, literally 2nd in command behind Leliana.

 

Technically they did have different duties. The templars were to the mages and the Seekers were to root out corruption in the chantry and the templars. 

 

The problem arose when many of the Seekers felt it a more important role to be templars, and they had no oversight because they answered only to the Divine, and kept a lot of what they were doing secret from her. 

[Jackums]

I think a valid concern is the every day connection to the Fade for every mage. It's almost like being a little schizophrenic. Except these aren't hallucinations. Demons and spirits are always there, in peripheral awareness. I always knew this, but never appreciated it until Last Flight. When it got in the mind of a mage. Then it made sense to me why so many mages could instantly go abomination in DA2. Because they can call upon those demons whenever they want..... the good thing is, the mages in Leliana's ending aren't under high stress like those mages. But there still should always be worries about it.

And with Solas's insight, we discover that demons are essentially shaped by their surroundings, thus mages being free and not living under harsh, mentally/emotionally straining circumstances is consequently less likely to result in abominations and possession.

[MisterJB]

It did happen (in said ending). It's canon. Not to sound too blunt, but deal w/ it.

 

The ending also specifically states that said acceptance is "throughout Thedas," implying it's not isolated to any one or two nations.

 

You can dislike it, headcanon your own consequences, predict future problems; do all of that, but it's still established fact that there is unprecedented acceptance of mages throughout Thedas for the months that follow Leliana's ascension to Divine. It's black and white, inarguable fact.

It's terribly written, unrealistic, and, just like everything else in the game, open to criticism. It goes against the very tone of the Dragon Age franchise.

I would say the same if some epilogue where slavery was abolished in Tevinter was written.

[Lulupab]

Never said, and even in Leliana's ending, Templars will find a way to get lyrium. They did during DA:I. You're in the land of Headcanon.

Lol, you have the gall to talk about this without even checking it? If you side with mages, Leliana disbands the Templar order forever and no one is going to provide them with Lyrium since they are not even a part of Inquisition and were about to destroy the world alongside Corypheus.

if you side with Templars, only the Templars who leave the Inquisition go though the process of Lyrium withdrawal, which are the amjority. Below are exact quotes of leliana epilogue

"Many follow in the footsteps of Commander Cullen, going through the slow and agonizing process of Lyrium withdrawl"
"This frees many to join the Seekers of Truth under Cassandra - a renewed order dedicated to justice for all."

 

With Leliana we don't have any Templars outside Inquisition. None with any duty anyhow.
 

Where you started making up **** about how random peasant families thought the Circle was too harsh for their children and that Isolde would be happy with any Circle in Tevinter. Mostly because you made that information up on your own.

 
Meredith sister was kept because her family didn't want to part with her forever and yes circles are Harsh. Same applies to bethany, even though nothing went wrong if the college was available she would gladly go.
 

Not, it's a fact. You run out of resources, you get more. If people aren't willing to part with them, you take them. That's how the world works, and unlike just about anything you've said so far, that won't be proven false.

No its your opinion, one that I like many others don't share. Thedas is a magical world and magical services will be forever needed so there goes your lack of resources, not to mention Gaider confirmed circles were financially independent so mages can take care of their own in college as well. Resource is not a problem.

[MisterJB]

So you do accepts tarts with crowns are dangerous than any magic? Good to know. Yes the mages will surely compete as they always have, but with each other. They cannot own land or titles outside of their institution so what's the point? The mages know that they can never win a war against whole none-mages so for their own safety they have to keep the few bad eggs in check.

As if a war is needed. There is more than one way to dominate people.

Do I really have to write my argument of how lucrosians could use magical abilities to control the infrastructure and wealth and thus society? I'm sure everyone here is tired of reading it.

[dragonflight288]

The side effects of Lyrium are known if codex is any judge, Paranoia and obsession are very common among Lyrium users, dementia is rare however but with time the chance of it significantly increases. Do you remember that Templar that remembered nothing in front of Denerim Chantry on DA:O? Like that. Pretty much everyone knows that Lyrium can mess you up if ingested.

 

Leliana and Josephine provide the authority to act, they also fill the Inquisition coffers which enables an army to exist. In simpler words gathering dogs to fight for you is a very easy job in comparison to getting favor of every noble and have continental influence. Also Leliana is as responsible as Cassandra for Inquisition and Cass stops meddling in Inquisition affairs after Haven. This is not even about each character but the importance of intrigue and secrets. For example its Josephine who gets an invitation to Orlesian ball, an event in which only secrets and intrigue can save Orlais and not even the biggest army at hand can. Or its the spies who detect Corypheus at arbor wilds. These are what runs the Inquisition, with that much power and influence people will join and hence the army is formed and gets stronger. I mean don't get me wrong Cullen is not a bad commander, but Leliana and Josephine run the Inquisition, not him.

 

While this makes sense, I think you're underestimating the importance of Cullen and his forces.

 

Yes, you need Josephine to get into the ball, but 2/3 option in the ball require the use of soldiers commanded by Cullen. And there would be no stopping the demon army at Adamant if you didn't have any army and soldiers, with a capable commander. And once Corypheus was ferreted out in the arbor wilds, stopping him from reaching the Well is impossible without the soldiers from Orlais (Josephine's connections) and the Inquisitions own forces.

 

Cullen doesn't have the same role as Leliana and Josephine, and may not be involved in the political or secret gathering aspect of it, but his role is no less important than theirs. He simply is the sword to wield where the pen fails. And without a sizable force with training and military expertise, a lot of the weight behind Josephine disappears. 

 

I'm thinking of that one noble in Haven that agrees to allowing the Inquisition to remain in Haven when he insults Cassandra (you have to choose the trusted members of the Divine as part of the Inquisition option) and Josephine tries to arrange a duel and he backs down fast. It's kind of funny. 

 

Part of diplomacy is making sure people respect your politcal, economical and military prowess. Remove the teeth that bite from the dog or wolf and people see it as harmless. 

[Jackums]

It's terribly written, unrealistic, and, just like everything else in the game, open to criticism. It goes against the very tone of the Dragon Age franchise.

I would say the same if some epilogue where slavery was abolished in Tevinter was written.

It doesn't matter.

 

The writers could create an epilogue where neon pink elephants fell from the sky and the Maker revealed himself to be a cross-dressing nug and it would still be canon. The writers have ultimate authority over their material, and it's written that, "mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas." Therefore that's what happens and it's fact unless and until the writers state otherwise, whether directly or via their material.

 

You're certainly free to dislike it, find it unbelievable, and theorise about what happens during the time after what was mentioned in the epilogue, but nothing you say can invalidate what was stated in the epilogue itself. And that applies to any and all epilogue variants.

[MisterJB]

Remember the City Elf choice?

How having a City Elf Warden and a boon from the monarch didn't automatically result in humans and elves holding hands? How increase migration of elves lead to increase in tensions, riots and lynchings.
Now that was good writing.

[MisterJB]

It doesn't matter.

 

The writers could create an epilogue where neon pink elephants fell from the sky and the Maker revealed himself to be a cross-dressing nug and it would still be canon. The writers have ultimate authority over their material, and it's written that, "mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas." Therefore that's what happens and it's fact unless and until the writers state otherwise, whether directly or via their material.

 

You're certainly free to dislike it, find it unbelievable, and theorise about what happens during the time after what was mentioned in the epilogue, but nothing you say can invalidate what was stated in the epilogue itself. And that applies to any and all epilogue variants.

 

The Maker as a cross dressing nug would make more sense because a genuine God with a capital G is na entity unknowable to human intelligence and could easily be a nug as it could easily be anything else.

 

 

[zeypher]

It's terribly written, unrealistic, and, just like everything else in the game, open to criticism. It goes against the very tone of the Dragon Age franchise.

I would say the same if some epilogue where slavery was abolished in Tevinter was written.

Well get used to it, we get mage allies no abominations, we get grey wardens no corruption. This game is basically choices but no consequences.

[Lulupab]

Remember the City Elf choice?

How having a City Elf Warden and a boon from the monarch didn't automatically result in humans and elves holding hands? How increase migration of elves lead to increase in tensions, riots and lynchings.
Now that was good writing.

 

If you compare a boon to what a divine will do then I have nothing else to say. Not to mention the situation is different here, there is one city elf rising above his station then there is mages saving the world while the Chantry did nothing and actually hindered the effort.

 

Speaking of city elves, there is an ending in which they can become nobles and alienages are gone and the nobles are silenced by Inquisition (provided the Inquisitor is an elf). Or it happens more peacefully with reconciling Briala and Celene and doesn't require you to be an elf.

 

The mistakes of DAO boons were corrected in DA:I, they saw that they needed greater events and more appropriate situations to allow such changes to happen. One single warden's boons cannot be compared to what happens at DA:I because actions of one mage or one city elf does not mean much.

[Hellion Rex]

Do I really have to write my argument of how lucrosians could use magical abilities to control the infrastructure and wealth and thus society? I'm sure everyone here is tired of reading it.

I'd almost argue that Vivienne is working the system in a similar manner with her foothold in the Imperial Court.

[MisterJB]

If you compare a boon to what a divine will do then I have nothing else to say.

I wish.

[MisterJB]

Well get used to it, we get mage allies no abominations, we get grey wardens no corruption. This game is basically choices but no consequences.

 

Grey Wardens don't spread the Taint.

Altough a War Table mission dealing with fallout from out troops, both normal and magical, would be good.

You're telling me no soldier of the Inquisition pillaged anything?
 

[Lulupab]

While this makes sense, I think you're underestimating the importance of Cullen and his forces.
 
Yes, you need Josephine to get into the ball, but 2/3 option in the ball require the use of soldiers commanded by Cullen. And there would be no stopping the demon army at Adamant if you didn't have any army and soldiers, with a capable commander. And once Corypheus was ferreted out in the arbor wilds, stopping him from reaching the Well is impossible without the soldiers from Orlais (Josephine's connections) and the Inquisitions own forces.
 
Cullen doesn't have the same role as Leliana and Josephine, and may not be involved in the political or secret gathering aspect of it, but his role is no less important than theirs. He simply is the sword to wield where the pen fails. And without a sizable force with training and military expertise, a lot of the weight behind Josephine disappears. 
 
I'm thinking of that one noble in Haven that agrees to allowing the Inquisition to remain in Haven when he insults Cassandra (you have to choose the trusted members of the Divine as part of the Inquisition option) and Josephine tries to arrange a duel and he backs down fast. It's kind of funny. 
 
Part of diplomacy is making sure people respect your politcal, economical and military prowess. Remove the teeth that bite from the dog or wolf and people see it as harmless.

Well I never contested the army's importance, Inquisition needs armies. But leadership is a separate issue, it needs to be established, nobles's favors gathered along with information then the army can be maintained. A good army is result of good leadership and support. In the end they are all tired together, but Leliana and Josephine will do better than Cullen if they are elected to a leading position such as Divine.

[TobiTobsen]

Altough a War Table mission dealing with fallout from out troops, both normal and magical, would be good.

You're telling me no soldier of the Inquisition pillaged anything?
 

 

Leliana probably asked them not to. If you can talk away centuries of racial segregation and fear of magic, convincing soldiers not to be meanies shouldn't be a problem.

[Lulupab]

I wish.

Alistair almost does what is said in the magi boon when we meet him in DA2. He protects mages outside of circles from templars because as king he only has control over mages outside of circles.

[MisterJB]

Leliana probably asked them not to. If you can talk away centuries of racial segregation and fear of magic, convincing soldiers not to be meanies shouldn't be a problem.

 

Now that I think about it, this is a really glaring flaw. We have an army. We should be dealing with fallout from that army. An army doesn't just move and fight without some consequence. Just for the simple fact of moving from Skyhold to Amaranth Fortress, we'd better ask permission from someone.

And our soldiers never pillage anything? There's no fallout to deal with?

[dragonflight288]

 

Mister JB wrote....

 

If there are laws for the mages to follow but the Templars aren't there to enforce it, what is the point of having them in the first place?

Should the mages simply be trusted to follow these laws? Should we trust them to police each other?

 The elves of Denerim would claim that humans policing humans

 

 

That's the thing. Templars aren't needed to enforce the laws. 

 

I mean it's true that the templars acted in such a role for centuries, but over that same period of time, have taken it too far as an institution and have accepted powers and rights that they ought not have. It's not just Meredith, Alrik, Kerras or Mettin, or even Lambert. The templar order came to embody an ideology on magic that it is bad because of some ancient magisters, and they had authority over mages by divine right. As far back as Origins, it was shown, at least in the templar codex that itself said that templars were recruited mostly from the religiously fervent and less from those of integrity or character as a way to keep them from questioning their orders.

 

Do this long enough, and widespread enough, it's only a matter of time until most of the order is filled with ideological zealots who feel their way is the only way, and will fight to the death to ensure it remains so. 

 

The issue with the templars is that so many of them abandoned what it actually meant to be a templar when they followed Lambert and later Lucius into a war to slaughter the mages. 

 

If there wasn't such a systematic level of idealogy, so many templars wouldn't have left the Chantry even before Inquisition. 

 

We need people trained and ready to enforce laws, and we likely have to rebuild the templar order or the Seekers from scratch, which is what Cassandra will do, but the templars as they stand have lost all trust of the people in Inquisition, by abandoning the role of defender under Lambert and Lucius/Envy Demon, and this is reflected in Val Royeaux by the Orlesians we can eavesdrop on. 

 

There is a reason that the templars, in pretty much all of the endings, do not return to the status quo. It's because they as an institution are no longer trusted to fulfill that role because of their abuse of it.