951 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Uh...right. 

 

First you'd need to convince the smith caste in Orzammar to teach enchanting techniques to the surface dwarves because up there, only the tranquil can actually enchant anything. 

You don't think any smith was ever exiled? Or that the assembly wouldn't extend special status to dwarves working with human enchanting companies much like what already exists with the dwarven embassadors in Tevinter if there is profit to be made?

Honestly, as a last resort, I can see rich humans bribing the assembly to exile talented enchanters.

 

 

 

MisterJB, is that right?

Yes.

 

 

I know what he wants it to sound like. Problem is that it reduces crime the same way police quotas reduce crime.

But the threat mages pose does not always derive from a conscious choice. Many mages are simply weak and will, more likely than not, become Abominations at one point.

Naturally, senior enchanters will seek to protect these weak mages for the hostility of the outside world has lead to mages forming a tight community. However, if their material comforts are threatened, mages will be far more likely to err on the side of caution and make Tranquils of these mages who will then earn wealth for the Circle.

[Hellion Rex]

The Dalish are probably not using Lyrium to create enchantments, only people disconnected from the Fade can play with lyrium. Dagna explain it better than me in DAI.

Not quite though. We had a Circle mage in Awakening who enchanted stuff for us in Vigil's Keep, no? And she wasn't tranquil.

[Br3admax]

I don't think she actually enchanted them herself. She could just have Tranquil with her. All evidence we have says enchanting for a mage equals insta-death. 

[Lulupab]

Apparently the Dalish also know a way to enchant without dwarves and tranquils. So if its an art we would need a real confirmation that it does indeed happen. The connection to the fade need to be severed, maybe its possible to do it temporarily with meditating or something. Either way we can't really say, but its safe to claim enchantment is lethal to most mages.

[Jackums]

The Loyalist fraternity voted to return to the Chantry out of fear of the world rising up to slaughter them and you'd argue this was a position adopted on only that particular occasion and that they do not stay with the Chantry out of the same fear.

And you'd argue that the only reason the fraternity exists is fear with absolutely zero evidence. You're the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on you. So supply it, and until then, your argument is pure speculation.
 

I recall there's this loyalist mage in Redcliff who all but begs for the Inquisition to restore the Circle. One year later, he is a Venatori. 
Me thinks his loyalty extends only to the strongest horse around.

Back here we are again, with one mage reflecting all mages, just like how one crazy Templar makes them all oppressive tyrants, right?
 

Proving that being an Aequitarian does not prevent mages from committing terrible actions out of self-interest.

And nothing you've supplied proves they would, either.

Again, burden of proof.
 

First. the mages chose to protect Rhys thus obstructing the duty the Templars had to arrest him.

On false accusations.
 

However, that wasn't even the reason Lambert ordered an attack but rather because the mages were holding a vote on independence rather than the Rite of Tranquility, the explicit purpose of that conclave. Not a decision I agree with, but there's that.

Yes, because this is valid cause to attack a group of non-hostile mages.
 

Finally, a death in the heat of battle is not a murder and that one was an accident, anyway. The text describes how the Templar who struck the blow looked at the mage in disbelief, expecting her to defend herself.

So it's manslaughter. Oh, that makes it OK then. (Sarcasm)
 

First and foremost, just saying "baseless fear" is not an argument.

It's totally a valid argument when you're making claims without supplying any evidence to support them.
 

Second, if given full equality. Yes, then it's inevitable.

Prove it.
 

Third, the mages were always  treated as human beings. Extremely dangerous ones to be sure(as they should), but they were living in luxury and being given prime education and the Chantry never ordered to do anything. They helped if they wished.

In an archaic system, put through an inhumane test against their will (Harrowing), constantly faced with the threat of tranquility at the whims of their jailors, not allowed to leave their confines, with the existence in some cirlces of outright abuse, etc.

That does not match the definition of humane.
 

If you want to see dehumanization to the status of tools, look towards the Qun. The Circles aren't perfect for either side but they aren't the horrors you make them out to be.

Saying, "X scenario is worse therefore Y scenario is justified," is not a valid argument.

[Br3admax]

Apparently the Dalish also know a way to enchant without dwarves and tranquils. So if its an art we would need a real confirmation that it does indeed happen. The connection to the fade need to be severed, maybe its possible to do it temporarily with meditating or something. Either way we can't really say, but its safe to claim enchantment is lethal to most mages.

Nope, it's lethal to all, until proven otherwise. A severed connection to the Fade makes you Tranquil, temporary or otherwise. 

[dragonflight288]

Nope, it's lethal to all, until proven otherwise. A severed connection to the Fade makes you Tranquil, temporary or otherwise. 

 

Elven enchanter in Awakening, not a tranquil. 

[MisterJB]

And you'd argue that the only reason the fraternity exists is fear with absolutely zero evidence. You're the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on you. So supply it, and until then, your argument is pure speculation.
 

Back here we are again, with one mage reflecting all mages, just like how one crazy Templar makes them all oppressive tyrants, right?

It's an example of the behaviour of loyalists. This coupled with their arguments in DAAsunder and DAO (Madness! I doubt blood will be of use to you if it is flowing down the tower steps. Step away from this folly, before it consumes us all.--Enchanter Luvan, Loyalist)

paints most of the Fraternity as cowards who only joined it because they're afraid of the Chantry.

 

 

And nothing you've supplied proves they would, either.

Except they did. This rebellion.

There's no "would". They already have.

 

On false accusations.

No, on legitimate accusations brought about by false evidence planted by a mage. Adrian was the one at fault here, not Lambert.

 

Yes, because this is valid cause to attack a group of non-hostile mages.

I just said "Not a decision I'd agree with." If you're not reading what I'm writing just say so. Spare us both the effort.

 

 

So it's manslaughter. Oh, that makes it OK then. (Sarcasm)

No, at worst casuality. At best, accident.

The Templars who died afterwards were no accident, though. But hey, only mages matter.

 

It's totally a valid argument when you're making claims without supplying any evidence to support them.

The theory you are responding to is one where I used the ways humans behave in our world in relation with technology that makes our lives easier and transplanted it to Thedas and its magic. Then, I took into account how magic is the domain of a single ethnic group and from there, made reasonable assumptions of the kind of influence its use and monopoly would lend mages.

That is evidence, you're the one who has failed to use it yet in this matter.

 

In an archaic system, put through an inhumane test against their will (Harrowing), constantly faced with the threat of tranquility at the whims of their jailors, not allowed to leave their confines, with the existence in some cirlces of outright abuse, etc.

That does not match the definition of humane.

Humane and being treated like a human are not the same things. After all, an execution ordered by court is a way to treat a human for we do not execute animals but many would not call it humane.

However, the Circle is very much humane. It holds conditions of life far superior to the average person in Thedas, it provides prime education, again, not available to most of Thedas which remains illiterate, it can even be said to provide a better justice system than in most of Thedas for whereas a First Enchanter must agree to a Tranquility or execution, unlike in the outside world where there aren't lawyers and the final sentence always rests entirely with the lord in question and seen in DAA and DAI, and Tranquility can't even be inflicted on Harrowed mages (so, no, it most certainly is not at the whims of Templars).

Yes, there are restrictions and there should be for we are dealing with extremely dangerous people. But the notion mages can't even leave has been disproved many times. Just for two examples, and there are more, see Finn in Witch Hunt or Vivienne saying mages can live outside of the Circle if permission is granted.

 

 

Saying, "X scenario is worse therefore Y scenario is justified," is not a valid argument.

I'm going to invite you to read what I say attentively before answering.

You said "The Circle treats mages like tool" and I said "No, it does not. The qun does, there is a difference in the treatments that should be visible to anyone."

Hence, this is not "one is worse than the other" but rather "one does something and the other does not."

 

[dragonflight288]

 

You don't think any smith was ever exiled? Or that the assembly wouldn't extend special status to dwarves working with human enchanting companies much like what already exists with the dwarven embassadors in Tevinter if there is profit to be made?

Honestly, as a last resort, I can see rich humans bribing the assembly to exile talented enchanters.

 

I find this unlikely. They're too valuable to Orzammar, and some of those same nobles may have those master smiths employed in their own house. 

 

Unlikely, not impossible. I think there are dwarven smiths topside who can enchant, but it has been confirmed that even surface dwarves gradually lose their resistance to lyrium. 

[Lulupab]

Nope, it's lethal to all, until proven otherwise. A severed connection to the Fade makes you Tranquil, temporary or otherwise. 

 

There is an Elven enchanted items in the game with the description of "Although elven enchantment is more complicated than Tranquil methods, this ring proves that the old ways are still strong." I did leave room for doubt but there is information on Dalish enchantment and they don't have tranquils or dwarves. The got somethings right.

[The Baconer]

But the threat mages pose does not always derive from a conscious choice. Many mages are simply weak and will, more likely than not, become Abominations at one point.

 

Oh, will they now? Where are you getting this statistic?

[MisterJB]

Oh, will they now? Where are you getting this statistic?

We do not have statistics but the games and others have made a point of showing some mages simply do not have the strength and willpower needed to resist demons which makes sense. In the entire population, some mages simply will not be able to.

 

http://dragonage.wik...of_the_Tranquil

[dragonflight288]

Oh, will they now? Where are you getting this statistic?

 

Especially since the codexes and lore make it clear that abominations are actually quite rare. 

[dragonflight288]

We do not have statistics but the games and others have made a point of showing some mages simply do not have the strength and willpower needed to resist demons which makes sense. In the entire population, some mages simply will not be able to.

 

http://dragonage.wik...of_the_Tranquil

 

It's true that some do not, but most do not turn to demons and that abominations are rare as per the codex across three games. 

 

There will always be some mages who are weak and cannot control their powers, just as there will always be some templars who are sadists and can't control their lusts for blood or pretty mages. It does not reflect on the whole. 

[Addai]

However, the Circle is very much humane. It holds conditions of life far superior to the average person in Thedas, it provides prime education, again, not available to most of Thedas which remains illiterate, it can even be said to provide a better justice system than in most of Thedas for whereas a First Enchanter must agree to a Tranquility or execution, unlike in the outside world where there aren't lawyers and the final sentence always rests entirely with the lord in question and seen in DAA and DAI, and Tranquility can't even be inflicted on Harrowed mages (so, no, it most certainly is not at the whims of Templars).

Except in Kirkwall. And if it could happen in Kirkwall, it could happen anywhere.

Yes, there are restrictions and there should be for we are dealing with extremely dangerous people. But the notion mages can't even leave has been disproved many times. Just for two examples, and there are more, see Finn in Witch Hunt or Vivienne saying mages can live outside of the Circle if permission is granted.

Having to receive permission to leave, and knowing the templars can track you down wherever you go with their dodgy blood magic methods, is not exactly freedom of movement.

[The Baconer]

We do not have statistics but the games and others have made a point of showing some mages simply do not have the strength and willpower needed to resist demons which makes sense. In the entire population, some mages simply will not be able to.

 

Notice that we've gone from "many mages" who will "more likely than not" turn abomination to "some mages".

 

Now, where is the evidence that these weak-willed mages are being protected to some significant degree? In the event that mages need more Tranquil to stay "competitive", do you really think mages will police their own population more stringently? Or, rather, will it just force them to come up with excuses to use the Rite more frequently?

[Lulupab]

Especially since the codexes and lore make it clear that abominations are actually quite rare. 

 

Indeed.

 

@MisterJB

 

Name a single mage that becomes an abomination in DA:I. Its rarity and the fact that Kirkwall was an exception is quite obvious, as it was confirmed by Gaider ages ago. Blood magic and demonic possession is quite rare, Somehow all of them were stockpiled at Kirkwall.

[Boost32]

Indeed.
 
@MisterJB
 
Name a single mage that becomes an abomination in DA:I. Its rarity and the fact that Kirkwall was an exception is quite obvious, as it was confirmed by Gaider ages ago. Blood magic and demonic possession is quite rare, Somehow all of them were stockpiled at Kirkwall.

But if you go to the templars, Fiona and the rebels mages willingly attacks you, the ones who didnt want to join the Venatori either fled or were killed

[Addai]

I do enjoy asking Vivienne if she's a danger and should you post guards outside her door when she starts going on about how the rebel mages are going to sprout into abominations at any moment because of the Breach.

[MisterJB]

Notice that we've gone from "many mages" who will "more likely than not" turn abomination to "some mages".

 

Now, where is the evidence that these weak-willed mages are being protected to some significant degree? In the event that mages need more Tranquil to stay "competitive", do you really think mages will police their own population more stringently? Or, rather, will it just force them to come up with excuses to use the Rite more frequently?

A minority of mages. Whether you'd consider them to be many is relative. Even 1% would be many when we consider Abominations are, per lore, some of the most terrifying creatures in Thedas.

 

If they are using the Rite more frequently, then they are automatically lessening the danger the mage population represent simply by thinning their numbers. If they wish to apply the Rite on, say, political rivals rather than weak mages who will, probably, become Abominations in the future, that would be their own business. Either way, it's a victory.

 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Indeed.

 

@MisterJB

 

Name a single mage that becomes an abomination in DA:I. Its rarity and the fact that Kirkwall was an exception is quite obvious, as it was confirmed by Gaider ages ago. Blood magic and demonic possession is quite rare, Somehow all of them were stockpiled at Kirkwall.

rly because bioware completely ignored abomnation problem in that game it is ridiculous that we have no single abomination during war-time and extreme conditions.Topic wasn't even touched in that game so please with you and your confirmation.Not to mention that you ignore that kirkwall was hardly only place with legions of abomnations.

[MisterJB]

Except in Kirkwall. And if it could happen in Kirkwall, it could happen anywhere.

Just like a normal guardsman may commit a crime or overlook one.

Abuse of authority is not something restricted to the Circles.

 

 

Having to receive permission to leave, and knowing the templars can track you down wherever you go with their dodgy blood magic methods, is not exactly freedom of movement.

And mages aren't exactly normal people. Considering the threat they pose, needing to prove yourself and being able to be tracked down is quite reasonable.

[The Baconer]

A minority of mages. Whether you'd consider them to be many is relative. Even 1% would be many when we consider Abominations are, per lore, some of the most terrifying creatures in Thedas.

 

As per lore, abominations are rare.

 

 

If they are using the Rite more frequently, then they are automatically lessening the danger the mage population represent simply by thinning their numbers. If they wish to apply the Rite on, say, political rivals rather than weak mages who will, probably, become Abominations in the future, that would be their own business. Either way, it's a victory.

 

So you realized this logic behind this was inherently faulty, but you just didn't care?

[Lulupab]

But if you go to the templars, Fiona and the rebels mages willingly attacks you, the ones who didnt want to join the Venatori either fled or were killed

 

According to Leliana's records they are all brainwashed and submitted into Venatori. Fear is a very strong motivator aka "Attack haven or you and every single member of your family will go through a slow and agonizing process of death". I would rather be utterly mind controlled and put in that situation but that's me. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Abominations are hardly rare considering how often we saw them in series until dai where topic was completely ignored and pretty much dai is game where abomnations should have highest frequency because situation that mages are pretty much same with blood magic.