951 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

I'm not so sure that the templars never attacked, I just don't think it was such a great force as to be the threat Fiona feared.

 

I base this opinion on the elven healer in Redcliff who says she's healing villagers from a templar attack. 

[errantknight]

I'm not so sure that the templars never attacked, I just don't think it was such a great force as to be the threat Fiona feared.

 

I base this opinion on the elven healer in Redcliff who says she's healing villagers from a templar attack. 

Different templars. That was the rogue ones who refused to go back to Val Royeaux (where the order was being summoned back to in order to pull out the redoubt) and killled everyone who was a mage, might have been a mage, or might provide food to a mage, even unwillingly, so...everyone. We killed the rogue ones and the apostate mages who didn't join the rebels as they were also killing everyone.

[Br3admax]

The Templar Order itself obviously never attacked Redcliffe. They were miles away being red lyrium poisoned. Why would Cory try to destroy the other part of his army? It's kind of silly to think he would. 

[Lulupab]

The Templar Order itself obviously never attacked Redcliffe. They were miles away being red lyrium poisoned. Why would Cory try to destroy the other part of his army? It's kind of silly to think he would. 

 

This is a hindsight the people of redcliff and mages lack. They only see what's in front of them.

[Lulupab]

Them falling for Alexius's foolery is a problem, not a mitigation. Especially when their response to the prospect of said attackers (an experienced, numerically superior anti-magical force) is to throw their lot in with Venatori (inexperienced, numerically inferior, magical force with no prospects of reinforcement) at the expense of their support of the Arl of Redcliffe and the Throne of Ferelden (numerically superior, non-magical, unmatchable reinforcements, and now angrily marching against the mages). Not only were they wrong, but they made the wrong decision on the grounds of what they thought was right.

 

Typically the response to 'they were dupes' is not 'well, in their defense they were duped.'

 

Both sides are being duped in the game so I don't see where this argument comes form. There are normal people talking in background who think Alexius saved them when their Arl failed. The was compelling evidence the Templar were attacking and it was faked perfectly. Like every single person in Redcliff is fooled by it.

[Master Warder Z_]

o.o moot point really.

Just restore the core of Thedas.

[TEWR]

is to throw their lot in with Venatori

 

 

This would be a fair point Dean if the rebel Mages actually knew they were Venatori and weren't under the belief that they were representatives of Tevinter.

 

You could say it was still a boneheaded move (which i won't contest though I can't fault Fiona for it because 1) she had reasons and 2) Arl Wulff was pressuring the mages to side with Tevinter) but bear in mind that though Ferelden has offered them asylum they never promised to aid them in the war -- though I'd argue the asylum is in fact aiding them, but I mean through more military/economic channels.

 

As it stands, Fiona has no reason to believe Ferelden will lend their might to her cause, because they never had Ferelden's support in their war -- despite Alistair and Anora's pro-mage leanings -- but were merely allowed to reside in Ferelden.

 

Of course Tevinter could hardly do anything to really support them in Ferelden in terms of manpower. They're across the continent and at best you'd get economic help from them but even so you might as well go to Rivain for aid. In fact, Rivain would've been a better option, considering their culture.

 

Of course, this is all moot for me in my personal headcanon where Alistair and Anora schism from the Chantry. Still need to flesh that out some more but even so.

[Dean_the_Young]

Both sides are being duped in the game so I don't see where this argument comes form.

 

...possibly because both sides being duped is irrelevant? The Templar failures of leadership hardly pardon or vindicate Fiona's ineptitude.

 

 

There are normal people talking in background who think Alexius saved them when their Arl failed. The was compelling evidence the Templar were attacking and it was faked perfectly. Like every single person in Redcliff is fooled by it.

 

 

Possibly because they huddled up in Redcliffe rather than look over that hill to see the supposed army for themselves. If they confused the Renegade Templars in the Hinterlands for the main Templar army, then they were crying the sky was falling for the rain.

 

A lot of ignorant people being wrong neither makes for 'compelling evidence,' or 'faked perfectly.' Especially since, well, the Arl didn't fail- the only reason the Arl of Redcliffe is gone from Redcliffe is because the mages supported a coup, and the only reason that Redcliffe didn't fall to the Templars was because the Templars never actually attacked in force.

[dragonflight288]

Different templars. That was the rogue ones who refused to go back to Val Royeaux (where the order was being summoned back to in order to pull out the redoubt) and killled everyone who was a mage, might have been a mage, or might provide food to a mage, even unwillingly, so...everyone. We killed the rogue ones and the apostate mages who didn't join the rebels as they were also killing everyone.

 

But that is the question. 

 

The mages feared a host of templars were going to attack them. Alexius is gaining power in Redcliff at the time the templars are abandoning Val Royeaux, but how are the mages in Redcliff to know that if Fiona never actually went there for....kadywampus reasons. 

 

If those rogue templars did attack, and the tevinter agents said a larger force was on the move, which they were since they were traveling east from Val Royeaux to Therinfall Redoubt which is east of Redcliff, it's only expected that the mages would overreact at that point since they lack knowledge and intelligence. 

 

Like I said, I think there was a templar attack, just not the force that the mages were expecting. 

[Br3admax]

This is a hindsight the people of redcliff and mages lack. They only see what's in front of them.

That wasn't the point being made, so I fail to see the relevancy. People, and by that I mean mage supporters, still harbor the notion that the actual Templar Order was anywhere near Redcliffe at any point in the story besides the Conclave, and that they may have attacked. that obviously did not happen.  

[Lulupab]

...possibly because both sides being duped is irrelevant? The Templar failures of leadership hardly pardon or vindicate Fiona's ineptitude.

 
 
Possibly because they huddled up in Redcliffe rather than look over that hill to see the supposed army for themselves. If they confused the Renegade Templars in the Hinterlands for the main Templar army, then they were crying the sky was falling for the rain.
 
A lot of ignorant people being wrong neither makes for 'compelling evidence,' or 'faked perfectly.' Especially since, well, the Arl didn't fail- the only reason the Arl of Redcliffe is gone from Redcliffe is because the mages supported a coup, and the only reason that Redcliffe didn't fall to the Templars was because the Templars never actually attacked in force.

Uhh, thanks for stating the obvious. Alexius used time magic to plan it all with efficiency and everyone believed him. If the Templars can be exonerated due to their leaders being incapable, then the mages get the same treatment because Fiona is leader of mage rebellion.

The evidence is faked perfectly, they just lack the hindsight you and I have. Specially after their loved ones died in a Templar raid.

[Lulupab]

That wasn't the point being made, so I fail to see the relevancy. People, and by that I mean mage supporters, still harbor the notion that the actual Templar Order was anywhere near Redcliffe at any point in the story besides the Conclave, and that they may have attacked. that obviously did not happen.

I don't harbor any such notion. Both sides are being tricked and fooled and quite perfectly. Time magic and an exact copy of Lord Seeker are as perfect as being tricked goes. The leaders and people of both sides fail to notice this unless the Inquisitor helps. No one can deny this really.

The Only difference is Commander Denam knows what red Lyrium is and gives it to recruits anyway so we get to judge him, Fiona is truly fooled by making a decision based on available evidence (templar raid, refugees arriving with the news of templar attack, their allies withdrawing their support)

[errantknight]

I don't really get how this argument helps. No matter what Fiona thinks is going to happen, she still makes the decision that personal survival  justifies alllying with slavers/blood mages/enemies of the state and sacrificing the wellbeing of the citizens of Redcliffe.

[Steelcan]

I don't really get how this argument helps. No matter what Fiona thinks is going to happen, she still makes the decision that personal survival  justifies alllying with slavers/blood mages/enemies of the state and sacrificing the wellbeing of the citizens of Redcliffe.

and is at least willing to overlook the slaughter of the Tranquil

[Lulupab]

I don't really get how this argument helps. No matter what Fiona thinks is going to happen, she still makes the decision that personal survival  justifies alllying with slavers/blood mages/enemies of the state and sacrificing the wellbeing of the citizens of Redcliffe.

 

In that situation alternative is death. Ally with Tevinter or die. 

[Steelcan]

In that situation alternative is death. Ally with Tevinter or die. 

"Give me Liberty or give me death!"

 

-Not Fiona

[Master Warder Z_]

In that situation alternative is death. Ally with Tevinter or die.

And become what everyone feared they would be, betray those who protected them.

Seriously she done goofed.

[dragonflight288]

and is at least willing to overlook the slaughter of the Tranquil

 

Does she even know about it? As far as I know, the tranquil were removed and exiled is as far as anyone else knows. 

[dragonflight288]

And become what everyone feared they would be, betray those who protected them.

Seriously she done goofed.

 

And Lucius forced others to become the very thing he swore to protect people from. 

 

Neither is better, and the lackeys on both sides get jipped. 

[Steelcan]

Does she even know about it? As far as I know, the tranquil were removed and exiled is as far as anyone else knows. 

I can see it now

 

"Magister Alexius what happened to the hundreds of tranquil who were with us and seemed to have vanished into thin air, and what's with all these carved skulls around the place?"

[Master Warder Z_]

And Lucius forced others to become the very thing he swore to protect people from.

Neither is better, and the lackeys on both sides get jipped.

So we can agree both are as insane and ridiculously stupid as the other.

Good.

[dragonflight288]

I can see it now

 

"Magister Alexius what happened to the hundreds of tranquil who were with us and seemed to have vanished into thin air, and what's with all these carved skulls around the place?"

 

Would she know about those skulls being placed while staying in Redcliff? The Venatori are setting them up all over the place and she is isolated. 

 

I'm not defending her, but I am trying to get an accurate picture on what she does or doesn't know, when would she know it, and how much was she deceived.

 

It's pretty clear in a playthrough where you side with the mages that he lied to her about certain things, like how noncombatants and children wouldn't be forced into military service, so Alexius is not above lying to her about how her people would be treated. 

[errantknight]

In that situation alternative is death. Ally with Tevinter or die. 

Yes, that's what I just said. Not everyone would join with slavers, commiting treason rather than going with the 'riskier' choice of fleeing or fighting. It doesn't look good on her or the mages who went along with it, whether she made the choice for them or not.

 

Does she even know about it? As far as I know, the tranquil were removed and exiled is as far as anyone else knows. 

 It's fishy that the tranquil disappeared, but there could have been other explanations. It depends on whether the tranquil made it into the castle with them. If they did...it had to be known that the Tevinter were involved. If not, they might have handwaved it. They weren't doing much soul searching about anything else, so why that?  They might have just said 'oh, templars/apostates got them.' It kind of sounds like they abandoned them at the circle, though, and that's where Alexius got them. But that's very little better. These were mages they knew both before and after they became tranquil and it sounds like Minave was the only one who gave a crap.

[dragonflight288]

 

 It's fishy that the tranquil disappeared, but there could have been other explanations. It depends on whether the tranquil made it into the castle with them. If they did...it had to be known that the Tevinter were involved. If not, they might have handwaved it. They weren't doing much soul searching about anything else, so why that?  They might have just said 'oh, templars/apostates got them.' It kind of sounds like they abandoned them at the circle, though, and that's where Alexius got them.

 

 

It's not as fishy when taken in context with that tranquil we can talk to in Redcliff's pub. Alexius apparently disapproved of anyone without magic and was slowly sending people away who weren't useful to his cause. 

 

I'm not saying it isn't fishy, but there is a remarkable lack of proof unless you sneak into that one house on the docks where you learn the truth. I'm questioning whether or not Fiona would know what was happening to the tranquil considering other people were being kicked out as well, and if she had enough connections to know about the Ocularum being set up throughout Ferelden and Orlais since she had become indentured to Alexius. 

[Steelcan]

Would she know about those skulls being placed while staying in Redcliff? The Venatori are setting them up all over the place and she is isolated. 

 

I'm not defending her, but I am trying to get an accurate picture on what she does or doesn't know, when would she know it, and how much was she deceived.

 

It's pretty clear in a playthrough where you side with the mages that he lied to her about certain things, like how noncombatants and children wouldn't be forced into military service, so Alexius is not above lying to her about how her people would be treated. 

Well she never even brings up the treatment of the tranquil iirc.

 

There's a few reasons for that I suppose, not being aware of it, unlikely given how many there were and how they were removed.  Its not easy to convince people that hundreds of non-combatants would just up and leave in the middle of a war zone.  Complicit in it, also unlikely, she may be a horrendous leader, but I don't see her signing up for the slaughter of innocent people.

 

I don't pretend to have an answer, but I don't think she even brings it up, which is suspicious at least