http://dragonage.wik..._Circle_of_Magi
So what is it, too lenient or too strict of a Circle? Both cases provided problems. The problem is the Circle system itself.
The problem is that the mages don't like to be controlled. There can't be sedition in the first place if no one is there to control them.
They fought besides the army of faithful and they grow found of each other, In Haven or skyhold you can hear mages and Inquisition soldiers talking to each other. They are getting along and recognizing they have misjudged mages.
Oh please, this is wishful thinking. History is absolutely filled to the brim with forgetfulness, ingratitude, etc.
Thedas itself has examples of this. Garahel. What the mages did here is no different than what they previously did during Bligths. Human perception in the Dales.
People are much quicker to remember the bad than the good and mages siding with the Inquisition; after we freed Redcliff from Tevinter rule caused by the mages I might add; isn't going to change much in any realistic setting.
Also, I couldn't possible express in words how much I detest the notion of people "learning" they "need" magic to survive. That would only create subservient and pathetic populations
The problem is that the mages don't like to be controlled. There can't be sedition in the first place if no one is there to control them.
If no one is there to control them; they are lawless and thus dangerous and untrustworthy.
I'll take that as a no
Feel free, doesn't change anything.The circle system has failed spectacularly and kirkwall is the shining star. The fact that Meredith can take power speaks volumes. That cannot happen in Monstimmard.
All endings favor mages like it should. In all of them mages get more freedom and there is no option to go back to the old circles. Same cannot be said about templars. They either disband, become glorified watch dogs like Tevinter Templars, or get reformed from their very core. Whether you like it or not the old circle system is gone to never revisited again. That's pretty much about all there is in this matter because its getting off-topic.
If no one is there to control them; they are lawless and thus dangerous and untrustworthy.
Not being controlled is not the same as following the law. I'm pretty sure that even in the divine Leliana world state there will be laws the mages will have the follow. Just what do you think any group of person would do if suddenly, their rights of coming and going, reproduction and very existance were violated by an system? You wouldn't need to be an mage to see outrage and revolt everywere.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
kirkwall is the shining star.
More like a cesspool... but to each their own 
Feel free, doesn't change anything.The circle system has failed spectacularly and kirkwall is the shining star. The fact that Meredith can take power speaks volumes. That cannot happen in Monstimmard.
All endings favor mages like it should. In all of them mages get more freedom and there is no option to go back to the old circles. Same cannot be said about templars. They either disband, become glorified watch dogs like Tevinter Templars, or get reformed from their very core. Whether you like it or not the old circle system is gone to never revisited again. That's pretty about all there is in this matter because its getting off-topic.
The fact that it gets reconstituted in 2/3 endings speaks otherwise
Or they can stay in the Inquisition, having purpose, or the Order is reformed by Cassandra, there are options to keep them largely the same, pretending that those don't exist will not advance your argument any further
Not being controlled is not the same as following the law. I'm pretty sure that even in the divine Leliana world state there will be laws the mages will have the follow. Just what do you think any group of person would do if suddenly, their rights of coming and going, reproduction and very existance were violated by an system? You wouldn't need to be an mage to see outrage and revolt everywere.
If there are laws for the mages to follow but the Templars aren't there to enforce it, what is the point of having them in the first place?
Should the mages simply be trusted to follow these laws? Should we trust them to police each other?
The elves of Denerim would claim that humans policing humans
But we must remembre that the mages were following the law; that is the Circle; until they decided they no longer wished to. Hence the rebellion.
So, we can expect the mages to follow the law except if it restricts their freedoms; never mind that that is the very purpose of law, to restrict individual freedoms so humans can coexist.
So, what do we do? Make the laws more and more lenient until the mages are happy with them? Then the efficacy of those too lenient laws are questionable to begin with.
And there is no one to even enforce those already too lenient laws.
Oh please, this is wishful thinking. History is absolutely filled to the brim with forgetfulness, ingratitude, etc.
Thedas itself has examples of this. Garahel. What the mages did here is no different than what they previously did during Bligths. Human perception in the Dales.
People are much quicker to remember the bad than the good and mages siding with the Inquisition; after we freed Redcliff from Tevinter rule caused by the mages I might add; isn't going to change much in any realistic setting.
Also, I couldn't possible express in words how much I detest the notion of people "learning" they "need" magic to survive. That would only create subservient and pathetic populations
in "realistic" setting templars are not in any good position than mages too. That's just how it is. The Inquisition is not a mere history figure you can compare to. It saved the whole world, . If you side with mages no one believes Templars could seal the breach, when Cullen mentions it its called "pure speculation", Its believable because sealing a tear in the veil is very hard and during history of Thedas only mages and spirit entities could seal such tears and only small ones. The tear in Bericillian forest is huge and permanent. So if you side with the mages you will never know Templars can seal the breach and to the eyes of masses Mages helped close the breach. Dangerous magic solved by magic.
Magic has tipped the odds for Survival of Thedas in pretty much all blights, Qunari Invasion etc... In a magical world and full of magical horrors, what's better than magic to solve it? Because if you don't know if college is made, that can mean Templars are dead and they are not even taking Lyrium anymore.
Tevinter has less magical disaster than south thedas in its circles and their circles are academies where mages teach other and mages also watch each other. We can extract this aspect alone without anything else and apply it to south. Don't forget that with Leliana you get the highest number of Seeker recruits so they can be helpful in solving things.
Just because people don't think the templars couldn't seal the breach doesn't mean they weren't capable of it.
Just because Leliana, who is neither a mage nor a templar, doesn't believe so is really quite irrelevant
More like a cesspool... but to each their own
What are the ten most terrifying words in the common tongue?
The answer - "I'm from the Kirkwall circle and I'm here to help."
Guest_StreetMagic_*
n a magical world and full of magical horrors, what's better than magic to solve it?
I would say the Templars do just as well. Or better yet, the Seekers. Even Solas complements Cass on that. In his words, she "enforces reality". i.e. quells the magical
The fact that it gets reconstituted in 2/3 endings speaks otherwise
Or they can stay in the Inquisition, having purpose, or the Order is reformed by Cassandra, there are options to keep them largely the same, pretending that those don't exist will not advance your argument any further
Mages get better treatment in all endings, regardless of all other choices.
You have to let Cullen take Lyrium, make Cassandra divine and don't encourage her to rebuild seekers. This is the only ending Templars almost get good treatment. Otherwise they get the stick. Going through long and agonizing process of lyroum withdrawal only to stop being a Templar and becoming Inquisition solder is not really "good" for templars, is it? Cassandra treats mages very well regardless of other choices.
So they do exists, but in one ending only and also tied to other choices as well. Mage treatment > Templar treatment. The circle system has to go and it did. Mages needed better lives and they get one, doesn't matter which choice, they get better lives.
I would say the Templars do just as well. Or better yet, the Seekers. Even Solas complements Cass on that. In his words, she "enforces reality". i.e. quells the magical
Seekers definitely fall under "magic" category. They literally have innate magic due to scarring they get from an spirit touching their mind.
in "realistic" setting templars are not in any good position than mages too.
Except for a few matters.
For one, they began from a higher position so, they can accomodate a fall better. Also, the Templars are recruited from the people of Thedas. Meaning, one can easily recruit newcomers and while that won't clean the slate, it helps.
Meanwhile, mages are a distinct ethnic group and nothing will ever change that.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Seekers definitely fall under "magic" category. They literally have innate magic due to scarring they get from an spirit touching their mind.
I know, but it's a strange brand just focused on making "this side of veil" the important one. It's control of magic, if anything.
Seekers definitely fall under "magic" category. They literally have innate magic due to scarring they get from an spirit touching their mind.
No, they don't. A mage is someone born with magic.
Seekers use means available to normal people to self improve. Anyone can become one.
Mages get better treatment in all endings, regardless of all other choices.
You have to let Cullen take Lyrium, make Cassandra divine and don't encourage her to rebuild seekers. This is the only ending Templars almost get good treatment. Otherwise they get the stick. Going through long and agonizing process of lyroum withdrawal only to stop being a Templar and becoming Inquisition solder is not really "good" for templars, is it? Cassandra treats mages very well regardless of other choices.
So they do exists, but in one ending only and also tied to other choices as well. Mage treatment > Templar treatment. The circle system has to go and it did. Mages needed better lives and they get one, doesn't matter which choice, they get better lives.
Except the Circle system doesn't go, in 2/3 endings it is reformed which is what I have argued for all along
So you admit that the templars are not forced into abandoning their role? Progress, maybe one day you'll stop trying to pass of your head canon and opinion as objective fact
This Bright Hand will fail, just like Leliana's ending and the Chantry will use it as ammunition to call for the old circles.
I hope those mages know how to swim if they should try their hand in Tevinter.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
No, they don't. A mage is someone born with magic.
Seekers use means available to normal people to self improve. Anyone can become one.
I think she just means the abilities. Definitely not mages though.. they don't have the constant connection to the Fade. Quite the opposite.
Mages get better treatment in all endings, regardless of all other choices.
You have to let Cullen take Lyrium, make Cassandra divine and don't encourage her to rebuild seekers. This is the only ending Templars almost get good treatment. Otherwise they get the stick. Going through long and agonizing process of lyroum withdrawal only to stop being a Templar and becoming Inquisition solder is not really "good" for templars, is it? Cassandra treats mages very well regardless of other choices.
So they do exists, but in one ending only and also tied to other choices as well. Mage treatment > Templar treatment. The circle system has to go and it did. Mages needed better lives and they get one, doesn't matter which choice, they get better lives.
The Circle system stays with 2 out of 3 Divine. What are you talking about?
Pro-Templars never wanted mages to have a horrible life. We want them in the Circles to make sure normal people don't have horrible lives. Those are not mutually exclusive.
Tevinter has less magical disaster than south thedas in its circles and their circles are academies where mages teach other and mages also watch each other. We can extract this aspect alone without anything else and apply it to south. Don't forget that with Leliana you get the highest number of Seeker recruits so they can be helpful in solving things.
Culture is not something you can select which parts you like and keep only those.
They tend to be one package deal because one thing logically leads to the other.
For instance, mages watching each others leads to mages in power.
Except the Circle system doesn't go, in 2/3 endings it is reformed which is what I have argued for all along
So you admit that the templars are not forced into abandoning their role? Progress, maybe one day you'll stop trying to pass of your head canon and opinion as objective fact
there is no circle with Cassandra if you side with mages, get your facts straight, Mages get the college with both Leliana and Cassandra.
Also ditto. Cry me a river because Bioware didn't follow your ideals in the epilogue. Templars get the stick, I didn't say anything about abandoning. Although Leliana does disband them.
Just because people don't think the templars couldn't seal the breach doesn't mean they weren't capable of it.
Just because Leliana, who is neither a mage nor a templar, doesn't believe so is really quite irrelevant
It never become as a known fact so in playthough where you side with mages Templars are forever known as incapable of sealing the breach and mages being the only force that can.
No one in room agrees with Cullen and since the decision is made in that room... Cassandra, Leliana and Josephine all think only mages can seal the breach. And that can easily mean people of Thedas as well.
Retour en haut