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[Lulupab]

Culture is not something you can select which parts you like and keep only those.
They tend to be one package deal because one thing logically leads to the other.
 
For instance, mages watching each others leads to mages in power.

 
Its not culture at all. Its a system. Culture would be choosing the head of each circle from Noble families who have power. Mages in south still cannot hold titles or power, outside of the institution that is meant for mages anyhow.

The Circle system stays with 2 out of 3 Divine. What are you talking about?
Pro-Templars never wanted mages to have a horrible life. We want them in the Circles to make sure normal people don't have horrible lives. Those are not mutually exclusive.

 
There is no circle with Cassandra. If you side with mages you either get bright hand or college based on if you allied or conscripted

[Jaison1986]

If there are laws for the mages to follow but the Templars aren't there to enforce it, what is the point of having them in the first place?

Should the mages simply be trusted to follow these laws? Should we trust them to police each other?

 The elves of Denerim would claim that humans policing humans

 

But we must remembre that the mages were following the law; that is the Circle; until they decided they no longer wished to. Hence the rebellion.

So, we can expect the mages to follow the law except if it restricts their freedoms; never mind that that is the very purpose of law, to restrict individual freedoms so humans can coexist.

So, what do we do? Make the laws more and more lenient until the mages are happy with them? Then the efficacy of those too lenient laws are questionable to begin with.

 

And there is no one to even enforce those already too lenient laws.
 

 

Maybe the point is that the templars shouldn't have existed in the first place. So, yes, the mages should be trusted to follow the laws. Just remember what Marethari says in the Dalish origins "we could easily slaughter all the humans of that village, but that would bring the wrath of their king down upon us". Even the mages are smart enough to know that if they ignore the law and abuse their position, the rulership of the country were they live in wouldn't tolarate it, and it would only bring their doom.

[Jackums]

Mages would only follow the laws if they believe in the Chantry. They're not required to without the Circle. 

 

At best, they could follow similar ideas, just for their own best interest.. but they're not compelled to believe "Magic must serve man. Not rule him" anymore. They're completely free to make up something else now.

Yes, because all mages are sadistic, power-hungry hedonists.

 

Forget the fact that mages are still people, many with compassion and morals and a sense of rationality.

 

You don't require religion to be a good human being.

[Lulupab]

It's like everything else. Depends on your playthrough. Kind of pointless arguing about it.

I merely stated a fact, didn't argue. If you side with mages, magic saves the world from dangers of magic. And in more than one instance.

[CENIC]

I got the College vs Circle ending

I kinda want to side with the Templars, but still have Cassandra as Divine... hopefully those are still "good" endings.

[Jaison1986]

Wait. What?

 

I didn't say that. I'm actually on a Leliana type of playthrough as we speak, just so you know. I'm just saying, they're not compelled to follow anything. There is nothing..absolutely nothing.. hanging over their heads now when it comes to rules about magic. It's just a simple fact. Some may be good.. Some will be atrocious.

 

No one is compelled to anything in this life. I could just leave my chair here, pick up an knife and kill every person I see in the street. But I don't do that, do I? I don't see why mages would be an special case in that regard.

[Jackums]

Wait. What?

 

I didn't say that. I'm actually on a Leliana type of playthrough as we speak, just so you know. I'm just saying, they're not compelled to follow anything. There is nothing..absolutely nothing.. hanging over their heads now when it comes to rules about magic. It's just a simple fact. Some may be good.. Some will be atrocious.

You said mages would only follow the law if they believed in the Chantry, which is completely false and implies one needs to be Andrastrian to be level-headed and actually obey practical, rational laws. If you meant to say otherwise, then your wording was a little off.

 

Basically I'm saying many mages will be compelled by their, you know, humanity. They don't need to be in a Circle system to actually obey the law. Rather, being free would give them the choice, just like every other person in Thedas has; choice.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Yes, because all mages are sadistic, power-hungry hedonists.
 
Forget the fact that mages are still people, many with compassion and morals and a sense of rationality.
 
You don't require religion to be a good human being.

Mages are also like walking weapons as well as people, letting them police themselves is dangerous & will eventually turn southern Thedas into another mage ruled empire like the Imperium if the wrong types gain influence

[Ryzaki]

Out of curiosity, what does a pro-mage Hawke's codex entry says?

I know the pro-Templar one was written by a mage where he accuses Hawke of validating the Templars and thus the Champion should be silent.

 

Actually that changes if you're a mage. It becomes we've made a huge mistake if even one of our own turns his back on us.
 

[Hellion Rex]

I merely stated a fact, didn't argue. If you side with mages, magic saves the world from dangers of magic. And in more than one instance.

If you wanna get technical, magic saves the world regardless of the choices you make.

[Jackums]

It was Andraste who first made these directives. That's why I mentioned the Chantry. They're not neccessarily "common sense" wisdom or something. In this setting, it's specifically Andrastian wisdom.

 

edit: Also, I'm not talking about all laws. I was talking about magic.

What does that have to do with anything?

 

Humanity, morality and compassion are not exclusive to Andrastians. Belief in the Chantry is not the only thing that dictates someone being a good person. Thus your argument does nothing to prove that mages require the Circle to "behave."

 

Mages are also like walking weapons as well as people, letting them police themselves is dangerous & will eventually turn southern Thedas into another mage ruled empire like the Imperium if the wrong types gain influence

No. There are just as many good mages as there are bad ones.

 

Being oppressive is just as dangerous. I'd personally be far more inclined, as a mage-indentified player, to support extremist behaviors in a situation where my basic human rights are being denied on the basis of, "Oh, you could do something bad."

[Lulupab]

If you wanna get technical, magic saves the world regardless of the choices you make.

True, but its more excessive in this case and people actually see it firsthand.

[Sylvianus]

Too Disneyland and not enough Dragon Age. That ending is almost lore breaking. And Bright Hand >>> CoE.

 

I felt like that ending is disaster waiting to happen.

 

This is exactly what I feel about the ending with Leliana as Divine. Nothing to add.

[Jaison1986]

You keep mentioning morality. I never specifically pointed that out.

 

Andraste was criticizing the temptation to power specifically. 

 

And it's not as simple as morals. Look at Tevinter. They use magic for power.. yet they think they're moral at the same time. In Dorian's words, the magisters convince themselves they're "serving others" by being in power.

 

That's culture. And Tevinter culture ever since the beggining was that magic aways rules above all else. But the Andrastian nations have no such culture.

[azarhal]

 

There is no circle with Cassandra. If you side with mages you either get bright hand or college based on if you allied or conscripted

 

Cassandra mage endings are all mages vs mages, you get either circles vs college (conscripted) or Jedi vs Sith inside the same "college" (allied). It's all internal strife among the mages though.

[Lulupab]

This is exactly what I feel about the ending with Leliana as Divine. Nothing to add.

Its not in anymore danger than other divines, specially Vivienne who gets immediate uproars and rebellions one after another for several months.

[Lulupab]

Cassandra mage endings are all mages vs mages, you get either circles vs college (conscripted) or Jedi vs Sith inside the same "college" (allied). It's all internal strife among the mages though.

Cassandra is rather less competent in handling mages, its true. But at least its not all out war. Struggle for relevancy and being the true institute for mages is understandable.