162 réponses à ce sujet

[madrar]

Reposting here from the Solas thread, since it's likely to touch on other theories if it holds.  (Our old god<->dragon count, for one..)

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Solas was three Old Gods.

 

One entity.  Three Pantheon gods.   I may be chasing an elaborate red herring, but there's simply too much evidence to ignore: Solas was Fen'Harel, but before that, he was Dirthamen / Falon'Din.  His powers are their powers, his sins are their sins, and it would finally explain both his transformation to the Dread Wolf and his redemption to the Pantheon under the watchful eye of Mythal.  

 

1.   "You're different, Solas.  You're in both places." -Cole

This is the key to unraveling the core contradiction of the mythical Twins that are not Twins.  They are aspects of the same being- an entity that exists both fully in the fade and fully in the physical.  (Thanks to how fade-shadow inheritance works, this is so rare as to be almost unique in modern Thedas, but was the original state of being for the entire Elvhen race when the veil was first raised.  Hence Cole's surprise.)

 

2.  "Ma ghilana mir din'an."  -Spirit of Wisdom

"Guide me into death."  The final request of the spirit of Wisdom in Solas' personal quest.  Aside from Mythal, this is the character most likely to have known Solas before he was cast down as the Dread Wolf or restored to the Pantheon as Fen'Harel.  He greets her as kin -"lethallin"- and she responds in kind, speaking to him as the form in which she knows him best: Falon'Din, friend and guide to those on the other side of the Veil.  Solas as F'D hardly needs to be explained.  Solas.  Fade!  Solas.  Spirits are Awesome! Solas.

 

3.  "May her ashes be gathered by Falon'Din and carried safely." -old guy in Redcliffe

Solas approves. ...yes, I know. "He's a compassionate person!"  But you don't get his approval from rescuing druffalo, do you.

 

4.  "You really don't let anybody see under that polite mask you wear, do you?" -Inquisitor Lavellan

~ insert appropriately snide and scathing comments about Dirthamen, God of Secrets, and the damned apostate elf whose favorite pastime is not telling anyone, anything, ever. ~

 

5.  "Though you reach out in compassion, I must now insist that you... forget."  -Solas

This is the only direct clue we have that links him to Dirthamen as well as Falon'Din.  The important distinction here is the difference between Solas and Cole's abilities.  As a Spirit of Compassion, Cole's domain is pain and hurt, which allows him to see the path that Solas has chosen.  But there's not necessarily any hurt or pain involved in taking that away.  (Unless you assume that Cole was unduly upset by what he found.  Ignore that.  Stay with me.)  What Solas is doing is different.  What's being washed from Cole's mind is knowledge- or more accurately, a secret.  As we see at his temple, this is the core of Dirthamen's power and the boon he grants his followers: relieving them of the burden of their secrets.  

 

The secrets are madness in our ears, but they are ours

The Highest One cannot take them from us.

Only Dirthamen, our Keeper, only he

And if he does not take the secrets

they are ours forever.

 

6.  "I do not believe they sing songs about Falon'Din's vanity."  -Solas

Vanity.  Arrogance.  Ego.  Pride.  They are all one and the same.  If Solas' sins are Falon'Din's sins, then he has more blood on his hands than any of us would ever have imagined.  "The blood of those who would not bow low filled lakes as wide as oceans".  Note, critically, that he does not say the slain were ones who would not bow to him.   What he is describing is a social rebellion, a failed one that he encouraged and led, until it spread to Mythal's lands and she gathered forces to suppress it.  Even then, against the combined force of an allied Pantheon, Falon'Din only surrendered when his brethren bloodied him in his own temple. This rebellion, then, is his great crime- the treason for which he was first stripped of both his standing and form and cast as a monstrous beast into the Abyss.  This is how the Dread Wolf began.  

 

7.   "But Mythal’s magic sapped Andruil’s strength, and stole her knowledge of how to find the Void." -Codex

But how did the Dread Wolf end and Fen'Harel begin?  What service could he possibly have offered to the Pantheon to regain his place among them?  The answer lies in a threat to the Pantheon greater than any he had ever posed:  the blighted madness of Andruil.  Mythal needed him.  She could subdue Andruil with her magic, but only Dirthamen had the power to wipe Andruil's secret path to the Void from her mind.  In exchange for this service, the Dread Wolf rose to the Pantheon once more as Fen'Harel, loyal Hound of Mythal.  

 

8.  A picture is worth a thousand words.  

Don't tell me you don't see it.  You do.

 

 

I know this is insanity, but screw it- I like it, and I'm keeping it.  It feels right.  Doesn't it?  

 

And not just because it makes Solas #3 on the Pantheon power list, instead of being some random elf punished, then inexplicably raised to Pantheon, then bound to Mythal.  I believe (though I could certainly be wrong) that stripping Falon'Din of his power was part of his punishment when he was cast down as the Dread Wolf.  Not Chantry-style tranquility as we know it, but something simliar- something that rendered him a non-threat to the Pantheon.  

 

This was not reversed when he was restored as Fen'Harel.  As Solas (or however you want to refer to his core being to keep things straight) he only retained the innate powers unique to his OGS- much like Andruil/Sera and her marksmanship, or Sandal/June and his craft.  He could still wipe secrets, and could still walk the Fade- but that was the extent of his power.  

 

The orb then, was granted to restore limited access to magic when he rejoined the Pantheon as Fen'Harel.  It necessarily limited the scope of that power and bound its use, to some degree, to Mythal's will.  Not a direct geas on Solas, exactly- but inherent to the orb itself.  He would be unable to unlock its full potential, and the power that was granted could only be used in her service.  Magical "probation", as it were, of indefinite length.

 

Its destruction represented a significant loss to Mythal's personal power, and thus his "side" in the ongoing war between Order/Domination and Chaos/Free Will, not to mention the scrapping of whatever potential immediate use he intended for it.

 

Solas: "Most tales paint Falon'Din's stubbornness second only to his self-regard."

Inquisitor: "I'm surprised they let such a monster live."

Solas: "One does not lightly kill a god, Inquisitor. Even in legend."

 

ohhh, you sly wolf. 

[PorcelynDoll]

I am having trouble understanding this. Can you add who is saying the quotes please?

[madrar]

No problem.  The references are short because 8am is a rough time to write a thesis with footnotes.  Any specific questions, just ask.  

[PorcelynDoll]

Thanks. Really interesting read. If he is all 3 would that bring down the pantheon to 7, the same number of old gods? I like the theory but I wonder why Flemeth helped stop the fifth blight. Solas seems to really hate what the wardens do.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Oh, very interesting theory. Did you check if there are any accounts or stories of Falon'Din and Fen'Harel interacting?

 

Each god has a domain, only Fen'Harel didn't have one. Now he's called Dread Wolf, Betrayer and Rebel... but what was his actual domain before all this? Your theory would explain why he didn't have one.

[DaemionMoadrin]

If your theory is correct, then he's at least 5 old gods at the end of DA:I. He absorbed Mythal and Urthemiel.

[lynroy]

 

2.  "Ma ghilana mir din'an."  -Spirit of Wisdom

"Guide me into death."  The final request of the spirit of Wisdom in Solas' personal quest.  Aside from Mythal, this is the character most likely to have known Solas before he was cast down as the Dread Wolf or restored to the Pantheon as Fen'Harel.  He greets her as kin -"lethallin"- and she responds in kind, speaking to him as the form in which she knows him best: Falon'Din, friend and guide to those on the other side of the Veil.  Solas as F'D hardly needs to be explained.  Solas.  Fade!  Solas.  Spirits are Awesome! Solas.

This I found particularly interesting. Recently completed this quest and wondered why the spirit made that request to Solas. I like this perspective.

[madrar]

Oh, very interesting theory. Did you check if there are any accounts or stories of Falon'Din and Fen'Harel interacting?

 

Each god has a domain, only Fen'Harel didn't have one. Now he's called Dread Wolf, Betrayer and Rebel... but what was his actual domain before all this? Your theory would explain why he didn't have one.

 

Ah, gotcha.

 

Fen'Harel didn't have a domain, because at that point he didn't have followers.  He was a vassal of Mythal as a condition of his release from the Abyss, bound to her service.  His statues are everywhere (particularly in Mythal areas) but it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't allowed his own temples or shrines, or any form of direct worship after he was restored to the Pantheon.  No need to give the recovering alcoholic a shot of whiskey, right?  =w=

 

As for his representation a the ToM, it's telling that he's still portrayed as the Wolf, unlike the rest, and that his only distinguishing mark is the orb above his head.  This, I believe, is a "gift" from Mythal that limits his power, and gives her some control.  It's a leash, really.

 

Given that, one theory in the back of my mind is that he approached Corypheus intending that the magister break or otherwise pollute the power in the orb.  He would have been prevented from doing so himself (even if Mythal did not geas restrictions, the orb would not have granted him enough power to destroy itself) but perhaps Corypheus could.  And if so, he would be free.

 

This puts events at the end of the game in a very different light.  no?

[Sully13]

what no forcefield face? well that sucks.

 

Transformers meme by the way.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Ah, gotcha.

 

Fen'Harel didn't have a domain, because at that point he didn't have followers.  He was a vassal of Mythal as a condition of his release from the Abyss, bound to her service.  His statues are everywhere (particularly in Mythal areas) but it's a pretty safe bet he wasn't allowed his own temples or shrines, or any form of direct worship after he was restored to the Pantheon.  No need to give the recovering alcoholic a shot of whiskey, right?  =w=

 

As for his representation a the ToM, it's telling that he's still portrayed as the Wolf, unlike the rest, and that his only distinguishing mark is the orb above his head.  This, I believe, is a "gift" from Mythal that limits his power, and gives her some control.  It's a leash, really.

 

Given that, one theory in the back of my mind is that he approached Corypheus intending that the magister break or otherwise pollute the power in the orb.  He would have been prevented from doing so himself (even if Mythal did not geas restrictions, the orb would not have granted him enough power to destroy itself) but perhaps Corypheus could.  And if so, he would be free.

 

This puts events at the end of the game in a very different light.  no?

 

Solas` reaction to the broken orb doesn't seem to match that though. It was clearly a result he didn't want or expect.

When he came to Flemeth/Mythal later, he had given up. He failed and couldn't go on like this. This is why he allowed her to possess himself. Which, according to my theory, means all the souls involved merged into one being, unable to seperate again.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Now that raises another question. Just where did he lock the other gods away? Inside bodies perhaps, and those he is are the ones that have no other body?

[Moirnelithe]

There is one thing I have trouble with here, Solas called Flemeth "old friend" and he despises slavery. If he were leashed like you say, why does he consider her an "old friend". He should be really pissed off at her at this point.

 

I don't get the picture btw, can you explain it? I see the shrine of Fen'Harel with a black and white wolf guarding a broken eluvian, that's all.

[madrar]

Now that raises another question. Just where did he lock the other gods away? Inside bodies perhaps, and those he is are the ones that have no other body?

 

My crackpot theory?  Four of the gods are currently inhabiting mortal bodies, having been passed back and forth across the veil in a cycle of amnesiac reincarnation since their "destruction" at the end of each Blight.  Andruil is currently in Sera, June is currently in Sandal.  Two are unaccounted for, but if we came across them, they'd be marked by having an unnatural degree of (savant) skill and power that matched the domain of one of the unnaccounted gods.

 

Solas and Mythal are accounted for. Ghil'nain (I think?) was just stored for safe keeping by Mythal.  So... that leaves two still unblighted, likely still in dragon form, trapped in Arlathan.   I think?

[madrar]

There is one thing I have trouble with here, Solas called Flemeth "old friend" and he despises slavery. If he were leashed like you say, why does he consider her an "old friend". He should be really pissed off at her at this point.

 

I don't get the picture btw, can you explain it? I see the shrine of Fen'Harel with a black and white wolf guarding a broken eluvian, that's all.

 

Leashed, yes- but just limited, not enslaved.  Certainly a merciful alternative to leaving him to rot in the Abyss, and I think their objectives may have been naturally allied for the most part.  Possibly,  Also, I believe it's Mythal who calls him "old friend"- there may be a bit of bite to that, given their history, and I'm not entirely sure Solas is expressing his "true self' just yet.  

 

As he says to Cole, "We all have a face we want to show.... and a face we do not."  He's been on his best behavior for a very, very long time.  

[DaemionMoadrin]

My crackpot theory?  Five of the gods are currently inhabiting mortal bodies, having been passed back and forth across the veil in a cycle of amnesiac reincarnation since their "destruction" at the end of each Blight.  Andruil is in Sera, June is in Sandal, and Ghil'nain (I think?) was just stored for safe keeping by Mythal.  Two are unaccounted for, but if we came across them, they'd be marked by having an unnatural degree of (savant) skill and power that matched the domain of one of the unnaccounted gods.

 

Solas and Mythal are accounted for.  So... that leaves two still unblighted, likely still in dragon form, trapped in Arlathan.   I think?

 

Your theory ran away from you right here. Andruil is in Sera... eh, what?

Why are the old gods suddendly elven? Does that even match with the time line? Because the elven gods were gone, Arlathan fell and that happened before the rise of the Tevinter Imperium, so their dragon gods weren't locked away yet.

 

Your first theory in the OP is interesting but this right here? Total crackpot, sorry. ^^

[Robert Trevelyan]

Hmmm. I'm a little dubious about this.

 

The confirmation we have is that Solas is Fen'Harel.

 

I find the idea that he is also two other Gods in one to be a bit of a stretch. Certainly a less satisfying narrative. By this estimation HE now accounts for a potential half of the entire Elven pantheon in one form.

 

That's a stretch too far, for me.

[madrar]

Your theory ran away from you right here. Andruil is in Sera... eh, what?

Why are the old gods suddendly elven? Does that even match with the time line? Because the elven gods were gone, Arlathan fell and that happened before the rise of the Tevinter Imperium, so their dragon gods weren't locked away yet.

 

Your first theory in the OP is interesting but this right here? Total crackpot, sorry. ^^

 

I... don't know where to start with this, sorry.  I'd be here typing for the next three hours.  

 

Short version: the Old Gods were the original Elven Pantheon, appropriated by Tevinter.  Before its rise, there was a massive civil war among the Elvhen.  Mythal was murdered before Solas sealed away the rest- an event that came to be known as the "fall" of Arlathan.  The continuing civil war tore apart the Empire and destroyed elvish society, making space for the rise of the Tevinter Imperium from the crumbs that were left.   The fade aspect of Arlathan is the Black City, and its physical aspect is at the center of the world.  It is buried, along with the blight that inhabits it in both realms- as is the source of the Blight (possibly Elgar'nan, but more likely a pre-pantheon Sun entity whose nature is laregly unknown aside from an insatiable appetite for worship and obedience) and the remaining Old Gods, trapped in dragon form.    

 

There you go, I guess?

[madrar]

Hmmm. I'm a little dubious about this.

 

The confirmation we have is that Solas is Fen'Harel.

 

I find the idea that he is also two other Gods in one to be a bit of a stretch. Certainly a less satisfying narrative. By this estimation HE now accounts for a potential half of the entire Elven pantheon in one form.

 

That's a stretch too far, for me.

 

Yes, that is confirmed.  He doesn't... stop being Fen' Harel.  

 

He was, originally, Falon'Din/Dirthamen.  One entity, represented in the Pantheon by two Gods because of his inherent nature.

He overstepped his power, and was cast down as the Dread Wolf.

He was restored to the Pantheon as Fen'Harel.

He joins the Inquisition as Solas.

 

Same guy, different eras.  No conflict.  

[Ranadiel Marius]

My crackpot theory? Four of the gods are currently inhabiting mortal bodies, having been passed back and forth across the veil in a cycle of amnesiac reincarnation since their "destruction" at the end of each Blight. Andruil is currently in Sera, June is currently in Sandal. Two are unaccounted for, but if we came across them, they'd be marked by having an unnatural degree of (savant) skill and power that matched the domain of one of the unnaccounted gods.

Solas and Mythal are accounted for. Ghil'nain (I think?) was just stored for safe keeping by Mythal. So... that leaves two still unblighted, likely still in dragon form, trapped in Arlathan. I think?

While I do like the theory (and find the idea of Sera being an Elvish god hilarious), that creates a giant question, who is it that sleeps, hides, and hurts in the mirrors if not the sealed away gods? (Note, referencing a Cole/Sola's banter) It is implied that Sola's wishes to wake them at a great cost to those who are not real. So if not the gods, then who else would he wish to wake from a slumber in the mirrors?

[leaguer of one]

Hmmm. I'm a little dubious about this.

 

The confirmation we have is that Solas is Fen'Harel.

 

I find the idea that he is also two other Gods in one to be a bit of a stretch. Certainly a less satisfying narrative. By this estimation HE now accounts for a potential half of the entire Elven pantheon in one form.

 

That's a stretch too far, for me.

It's not a stretch. Remember, Dai shows that elven gods can combine and da2 shows they can divide themselves.

[madrar]

While I do like the theory (and find the idea of Sera being an Elvish god hilarious), that creates a giant question, who is it that sleeps, hides, and hurts in the mirrors if not the sealed away gods? (Note, referencing a Cole/Sola's banter) It is implied that Sola's wishes to wake them at a great cost to those who are not real. So if not the gods, then who else would he wish to wake from a slumber in the mirrors?

 

That's... a really good point.  Here's what I think, and this is nutbag theory straight out of nowhere, but stay with me.

 

First, no matter how powerful a mage-ruler you might be, if you present yourself to your followers and you look like... well, Solas, you're just another elf.  You're small.  It makes it very difficult to convince people to worship you as a God.  Worship on the level that the Pantheon eventually came to crave required distance from their followers, which necessitated- as I'll get to in a second- a mediating party.  

 

This was possible by entering Uthenera and transfering their soul to a secondary body, which would then interact with the faithful in an appropriately terrifying and humbling way.   Day-to-day mediation would most likely have been done through linked animals associated with each member of the Pantheon.  To each their own.  (Or possibly their temple statues?  That seems a bit more dramatic and impressive, but I'm completely dry on non-red-lyrium ways to inhabit stone or make it move.)

 

Anyway!  Battle, on the other hand, seems to have required linked dragons.  I don't have time to outline my secondary nutbag theory about exactly what was happening to Arlathan moments before it was sealed, but it's enough to say it was at war and Andruil's finger was on the trigger of a weapon of seriously massive destruction.  The physical bodies of Arlathan's other ruling Gods would have been in Uthenera, while their souls rode within the dragons defending / attacking the city.  

 

So they are both:  the Old Gods are entombed behind the eluvians in Uthenera, and they're also in the dragons.  

 

The dragons being more relevant usually, because darkspawn.  But they're one and the same.  If he could access the tombs via eluvian, Solas would be able to wake the remaining Gods far more easily, and with far less threat of blight infection, than going the dragon route.  

 

yeah?

[Robert Trevelyan]

Yes, that is confirmed.  He doesn't... stop being Fen' Harel.  

 

He was, originally, Falon'Din/Dirthamen.  One entity, represented in the Pantheon by two Gods because of his inherent nature.

He overstepped his power, and was cast down as the Dread Wolf.

He was restored to the Pantheon as Fen'Harel.

He joins the Inquisition as Solas.

 

Same guy, different eras.  No conflict.  

 

 

But how do we know that two Gods, Falon'Din and Dirthamen, were not amongst those Elven deities sealed away by Fen'Harel?

 

I can think of no in-game conversation or codex entry which actually draws any reference to these three individuals being the same person. Far from it, in fact.

 

I'm also not sure what you are meaning when you refer to the Dread Wolf being restored to the Pantheon as Fen'Harel.

 

Are you saying that the Elvhen or the Dalish change how they describe him in their stories, and record keeping? Or are you speaking of some kind of transferal of magical power?

 

I find either to be unlikely. For Fen'Harel was also missing when the Elven people fell from grace. He did not intervene.

 

My own personal belief is that after either locking the Elven Gods away (or plausibly even moving Arlathan itself to a section of The Fade to achieve this) Fen'Harel entered Uthenera. It is these experiences of dream walking which Solas refers to in DAI.

 

I think it possible (given his physical resemblance to painting and stained class depictions, and to Solas' Tarot card in DAI) that he may also have been Shartan, trying to further the cause of the Elven people *without* the interference of their Gods, in the time of Andraste.

 

That resulted in the formation of The Dalish, of course. And believing things to be going well for his People he may have drifted back into Uthenera once more, until relatively recently. At which point he may even have been the bald headed elf mage Felassan in the Masked Empire. Who was afterall in possession of an Elven Orb not dissimilar to the one we now know that Solas gave to Corypheus.

[Monica21]

If your theory is correct, then he's at least 5 old gods at the end of DA:I. He absorbed Mythal and Urthemiel.

 

Did he? The developer notes state that Flemeth agreed to be sacrificed as long as he let her pass Mythal on to Morrigan, which is what I assume she was doing with the eluvian when he walked up to her. Unless she only sent "a piece" of herself through. And what if Kieran doesn't have Urthemiel's soul in someone's world state? Who did he take?

[DaemionMoadrin]

Did he? The developer notes state that Flemeth agreed to be sacrificed as long as he let her pass Mythal on to Morrigan, which is what I assume she was doing with the eluvian when he walked up to her. Unless she only sent "a piece" of herself through. And what if Kieran doesn't have Urthemiel's soul in someone's world state? Who did he take?

 

Ah, yes. Correct. I didn't consider other world states. Where can I find the developer notes btw? I'm slowly getting fed up with having to hunt down the lore of the game in outside sources. -.-

 

Giving Mythal to Morrigan... which I doubt is possible in the first place since it has been repeatedly stated that the spirit possessing Flemeth can not be seperated from her.... would require Morrigan's permission. I don't think you can send a god through the Eluvian network like an email. Flemeth would have to give everything she is to Morrigan and die in the process.

[leaguer of one]

Did he? The developer notes state that Flemeth agreed to be sacrificed as long as he let her pass Mythal on to Morrigan, which is what I assume she was doing with the eluvian when he walked up to her. Unless she only sent "a piece" of herself through. And what if Kieran doesn't have Urthemiel's soul in someone's world state? Who did he take?

if Kieran does not have it he does not get it. It's gone. Flemeth's goal was to preserve old magic. Added this is hinted at when you talk to Solas after the bit with the well of sarrows. he goes on about it being a bad thing to share your power because others may squander it and miss use it. Seem to be that something he saw first hand.