162 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Thank you.

Yes, abominations (humans possessed by spirits/demons) can not be reversed. So if Flemeth was possessed by Mythal and now wants to give that up, then she's effectivel transferring her combined soul to Morrigan... who in turn would get possessed by it.
Meh, I hate it when they retcon things or change the rules.

Spirits don't control you as the meatsuit. Wynne was not altered as a meatsuit when she got the +1. Remember she was an abomination in the way the Chantry would term it. But she had faith - pure faith - and so as Solas tells us her Spirit of faith didn't change. Anders got a +1 in Justice. But to him Justice was really *vengeance*, so that's what it became.

Mythal could very well not alter her meatsuit. If she (it?) Is a spirit.

[In Exile]

You're so far out in left field you're in the football stadium now. Fen'Harel was always a part of the pantheon and his nickname was the Dread Wolf.

He existed at the same time as Falon'Din and Dirthamen. He tricked then as well. If this were true this would mean that the elven pantheon is not the old gods because then the numbers would not line up. It makes much more sense for that because of how solas reacts to grey wardens.

In another note. If the Veil didn't exist until Fen ' Harel created it when he banished them, then how was Falon'Din crossing the Veil and escorting people and spirits.

Furthermore
Their first separation came when Falon'Din found an old and sickly deer in the forest and gathered her up into his arms and carried her to her rest beyond the Veil, where Dirthamen could not follow.

so again. How was he crossing the Veil if it was not created until after they were all banished?

We know there are realms that aren't the Fade. The Cross roads for example. Was that natural? Or did the elves create it?

Maybe Solas used whatever power they had to create the Crossroads on a massive scale to create the Fade (perhaps by using the elven "gods" as a catalyst or focus?).

[Monica21]

Thank you.

 

Yes, abominations (humans possessed by spirits/demons) can not be reversed. So if Flemeth was possessed by Mythal and now wants to give that up, then she's effectivel transferring her combined soul to Morrigan... who in turn would get possessed by it.

Meh, I hate it when they retcon things or change the rules.

 

Flemeth is Mythal is Flemeth is Mythal, etc. She describes the "possession" in much the same way Anders described being possessed by Justice. "No different from your heart than your chest," or something. Mythal was ready to release her spirit into Morrigan, but only if Morrigan allowed it, which she presumably did since Flemeth passed something through the Eluvian.

 

I'm still a little hung up on the transference of god-hood but not her power bit.

[leaguer of one]

Spirits don't control you as the meatsuit. Wynne was not altered as a meatsuit when she got the +1. Remember she was an abomination in the way the Chantry would term it. But she had faith - pure faith - and so as Solas tells us her Spirit of faith didn't change. Anders got a +1 in Justice. But to him Justice was really *vengeance*, so that's what it became.

Mythal could very well not alter her meatsuit. If she (it?) Is a spirit.

it's the case that spirits are ideals in the purest sense. They are effected by what a person believes what and how a specific ideal is.

[Moirnelithe]

Flemeth is Mythal is Flemeth is Mythal, etc. She describes the "possession" in much the same way Anders described being possessed by Justice. "No different from your heart than your chest," or something. Mythal was ready to release her spirit into Morrigan, but only if Morrigan allowed it, which she presumably did since Flemeth passed something through the Eluvian.

 

I'm still a little hung up on the transference of god-hood but not her power bit.

 

I'm thinking the god essence of Mythal that is meant to go to Morrigan will end up in whoever drank from the Well of Sorrows because drinking turns you into a servant of Mythal and as such gives implicit permission to Mythal to 'body hop' there. If the Inquisitor ends up with that essence I'm sure there will be a follow up event that makes it necessary to transfer that essence to Morrigan. In the end it won't matter who drinks as Mythal will end up in Morrigan.

[xnarcosysx]

We know there are realms that aren't the Fade. The Cross roads for example. Was that natural? Or did the elves create it?

Maybe Solas used whatever power they had to create the Crossroads on a massive scale to create the Fade (perhaps by using the elven "gods" as a catalyst or focus?).

But why not call it something else then if it was not the Veil. Why call it the Veil when, as far as lore goes, we know the Veil was created either as a byproduct of banishing or the tool by which they were locked away. Which means the Veil existed after Falon'Din and not before. The wiki specifically calls it the Veil which now is contradicting the lore.

So which was it. They said before the fade and physical world were one. Then the Veil was created to separate them. If the wiki is correct, the Veil predates the banishment if the elven pantheon at the least. This would mean everything we think of the Veil being created simultaneous to the banishment is false.

[xnarcosysx]

Dude, every thing in the game show that near everything now before about elven lore was wrong.

No it does not. The ending nor well of sorrows even gets close to this concept of Elgar'nan being the first. It rattles some but not all aspects of elven lore. I honestly don't see anything that's disproven other than Fen'harel meaning god of rebellion and not trickster. Just cause they fit one name wrong doesn't mean they got everything wrong.

It actually proves more of the lore than it disproves.

[xnarcosysx]

I don't agree with all of your conclusions, but I have believed for a while that Falon'Din, Dirthamen, and Dread Wolf are the same, though, my hair brained theory includes one more member of the Pantheon, Elgar'nan.
When his "father" the sun became jealous and fried everything Elgar'nan defeated him by covering the land in darkness for too long (darkness can represent a lot of things, but darkness becomes Falon'Din's territory later on). Mythal gets Elgar'nan to calm down by touching his brow (scar on Solas' brow). What does that sound like? Sounds like Tranquility to me, which would separate his soul/spirit self from his physical body.

This is where Falon'Din and Dirthamen were created. Falon'Din/Elgar'nan has ages to stew in the fade, and plan his Vengeance against Mythal. If Cole and other powerful Spirits/Demons can will themselves whole into the physical world, surely a god can eventually figure it out. Falon'Din's gambit ultimately fails and he is brought to heel by the rest of the Pantheon. This is where I believe Mythal takes Falon'Din's Vengeance into herself where it becomes Justice. His powers were probably stripped as well, and perhaps he was cast back into the fade.

This is where things become mysterious. At some point part of the Pantheon betrays and murders Mythal. I am not sure who they were, but the phrase, "those who betrayed Mythal" is used in one of the codex entries indicating there was more than one person involved. I suspect Dirthamen (he is the master of lies and deceit) and the mother of hallas (always forget her name) were the ring leaders, based off of one of the codex entries that can only be translated if you drink from the well of sorrows. It's during this time Falon'Din became the Dread Wolf, and tricked the other gods.

Crazy ideas, but honestly I've never found any game lore more engaging than the stuff in DA:I.

The way you explain it makes tons more sense than the OP. However I still disagree.

[leaguer of one]

No it does not. The ending nor well of sorrows even gets close to this concept of Elgar'nan being the first. It rattles some but not all aspects of elven lore. I honestly don't see anything that's disproven other than Fen'harel meaning god of rebellion and not trickster. Just cause they fit one name wrong doesn't mean they got everything wrong.

It actually proves more of the lore than it disproves.

What? WERE YOU NOT PAYING ATTENTION? The head elf there flat out told you the dread wold betrayed no one and there was a civil war among the elves.

THE GUY WHO WAS THERE TELLS YOU THE DREAD WOLF BETRAYED NO ONE AND WAS A FRIEND TO MYTHAL.

 

That means every lore about him is wrong flat out outside of him sealing the gods.

[xnarcosysx]

What? WERE YOU NOT PAYING ATTENTION? The head elf there flat out told you the dread wold betrayed no one and there was a civil war among the elves.
THE GUY WHO WAS THERE TELLS YOU THE DREAD WOLF BETRAYED NO ONE AND WAS A FRIEND TO MYTHAL.

That means every lore about him is wrong flat out outside of him sealing the gods.

Man you know nothing. The Veil and banishment occurred AFTER mythal was killed. So it doesn't contradict Fen'Harel and mythal being friends. The pantheon in fought, killed mythal, and then the banishment, trickery, occured. THEN the lower elves, with no gods, fight amongst each other and then succumb to humans and tevinter. Arlathan was destroyed after the lower elves started fighting. The head elf guy you're talk about is ancient but is still a lower elf believing in the elven pantheon as gods. Nothing you're saying contradicts me. You just haven't figured it all out yet. With what everyone else knows.

What lore about him being wrong are you talking about? He did trick and betray them. The only thing wrong is the interpretation of the name.

[Kuvira]

Here you go.  Also, I just re-read it.

 

 

 

 

So, she's letting Solas have her power but passing the "essence of her god-hood" to Morrigan. I'm failing to see how those two things are separate.

 

I figure it's like the Well of Sorrows, but amped by several orders of magnitude. Morrigan didn't (appear) to gain super-powers from drinking the well, she just inherited thousands of years of combined experience. Which she can then use to get stronger. Mythal's knowledge probably makes the well look like backwater swamp. It's like a shortcut.

 

Corypheus spent 1000 years trying to figure out a way to ascend to godhood. If Morrigan inherited Mythal's knowledge, she'd basically have free blueprints even if she had none of the power. And there are plenty of ways to acquire power, which she will know (from well + Mythal).

 

Mythal basically gave Solas her life savings, contingent on giving her daughter the family books. Morrigan's not stupid, she'll figure it out.

 

The rest of this is totally beyond me, but sounds awesome, haha.

[leaguer of one]

Man you know nothing. The Veil and banishment occurred AFTER mythal was killed. So it doesn't contradict Fen'Harel and mythal being friends. The pantheon in fought, killed mythal, and then the banishment, trickery, occured. THEN the lower elves, with no gods, fight amongst each other and then succumb to humans and tevinter. Arlathan was destroyed after the lower elves started fighting. The head elf guy you're talk about is ancient but is still a lower elf believing in the elven pantheon as gods. Nothing you're saying contradicts me. You just haven't figured it all out yet. With what everyone else knows.

Dude. Hears the line from the head elf guy in the game.

 

the entire game made it a point that elven lore is wrong at every turn. Added, the guy make it a point the civil war started before Arlthan fell. he even tells you that Teventor did not destroyed the city or there culture. the elves did it to themselves. he tells you  Arlthan was destroyed by the elves.

 

So understand this. If 2 people who live at the time of elven lore tell you elven lore is wrong....then it's wrong.

[xnarcosysx]

Dude. Hears the line from the head elf guy in the game.


the entire game made it a point that elven lore is wrong at every turn. Added, the guy make it a point the civil war started before Arlthan fell. he even tells you that Teventor did not destroyed the city or there culture. the elves did it to themselves. he tells you Arlthan was destroyed by the elves.

So understand this. If 2 people who live at the time of elven lore tell you elven lore is wrong....then it's wrong.

Holy crap guy have you not read anything I typed. Please reread it all. I just said that Fen'Harel DID NOT kill mythal. I literally explained the whole timeline to you. Elven gods in fight, mythal gets killed, Fen'Harel gets pissed, locks away the rest of them. That would be betraying them. His name means god if rebellion. What he did could be considered both a betrayal and rebellion. YES the IN GAME elven lore had his name wrong. But the out of game confirmations and lore have explained this. That is the ONLY THING that the ending and well shows us to be false. But it does NOT disprove EVERYTHING about the in game and out of game lore. Holy smokes man, what do you not get?

It's so hard to argue with stupid.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Spirits don't control you as the meatsuit. Wynne was not altered as a meatsuit when she got the +1. Remember she was an abomination in the way the Chantry would term it. But she had faith - pure faith - and so as Solas tells us her Spirit of faith didn't change. Anders got a +1 in Justice. But to him Justice was really *vengeance*, so that's what it became.

Mythal could very well not alter her meatsuit. If she (it?) Is a spirit.

 

Where did I ever say anything about being controlled or being altered?

 

Flemeth, Wynne, Anders... none of them could be seperated from the spirit inside them. Which means if they want to pass that spirit on to someone else, then they'd die, at the very least. Perhaps the spirit wouldn't survive that either.

[xnarcosysx]

Dude. Hears the line from the head elf guy in the game.


the entire game made it a point that elven lore is wrong at every turn. Added, the guy make it a point the civil war started before Arlthan fell. he even tells you that Teventor did not destroyed the city or there culture. the elves did it to themselves. he tells you Arlthan was destroyed by the elves.

So understand this. If 2 people who live at the time of elven lore tell you elven lore is wrong....then it's wrong.

Furthermore if everything is wrong like you say then none of it is right. No elven gods ever existed. Fen'Harel/solas didn't lock them away etc. Etc.

[Arakat]

Is that the one that implied the old man was married to a halla?

Sorry, I'm sure it says something about Solas too, but lol.

 

wHAT?

[leaguer of one]

Holy crap guy have you not read anything I typed. Please reread it all. I just said that Fen'Harel DID NOT kill mythal. I literally explained the whole timeline to you. Elven gods in fight, mythal gets killed, Fen'Harel gets pissed, locks away the rest of them. That would be betraying them. His name means god if rebellion. What he did could be considered both a betrayal and rebellion. YES the IN GAME elven lore had his name wrong. But the out of game confirmations and lore have explained this. That is the ONLY THING that the ending and well shows us to be false. But it does NOT disprove EVERYTHING about the in game and out of game lore. Holy smokes man, what do you not get?

It's so hard to argue with stupid.

Funny, the " "Harel " in his name  a root word to the  elven word "Harillen" which means oppisiton. Added  the guy said  Arlthan fell because of the elven war and ended before the Seintials were put to sleep. I did not say the dread wolf did not seal them, that ture. Him being a traotor is what incorrect about elven lore. he tricked no one.

[leaguer of one]

Furthermore if everything is wrong like you say then none of it is right. No elven gods ever existed. Fen'Harel/solas didn't lock them away etc. Etc.

Dude, even Solas says they were not really gods. but he did say the dread wold did seal them away.

[In Exile]

But why not call it something else then if it was not the Veil. Why call it the Veil when, as far as lore goes, we know the Veil was created either as a byproduct of banishing or the tool by which they were locked away. Which means the Veil existed after Falon'Din and not before. The wiki specifically calls it the Veil which now is contradicting the lore.

So which was it. They said before the fade and physical world were one. Then the Veil was created to separate them. If the wiki is correct, the Veil predates the banishment if the elven pantheon at the least. This would mean everything we think of the Veil being created simultaneous to the banishment is false.

The elves don't call it the veil. And we don't know the origin of the term. There's a "Beyond" but that might not always have meant "Veil".

[xnarcosysx]

Funny, the " "Harel " in his name a root word to the elven word "Harillen" which means oppisiton. Added the guy said Arlthan fell because of the elven war and ended before the Seintials were put to sleep. I did not say the dread wolf did not seal them, that ture. Him being a traotor is what incorrect about elven lore. he tricked no one.

So you're saying the elven gods willing let him lock them away? If not, then he had to trick them to get them to stay put while he did his magic. I know his name meaning. But just cause his name means rebellion doesn't mean he can't trick someone.

Also, again, there were two elven wars. The initial one where the pantheon fought. Then the one where all the elves fought because their gods had disappeared.

This second war was when arlathan fell. They destroyed it.

[xnarcosysx]

I don't agree with all of your conclusions OP, but I have believed for a while that Falon'Din, Dirthamen, and Dread Wolf are the same. Though, my hair brained theory includes one more member of the Pantheon, Elgar'nan.

When his "father" the sun became jealous and fried everything Elgar'nan defeated him and covered the land in darkness for too long (darkness can represent a lot of things, but darkness becomes Falon'Din's territory later on) and nothing mortal can survive in darkness. Mythal gets Elgar'nan to calm down by touching his brow (scar on Solas' brow). What does that sound like? Sounds like Tranquility to me, which would separate his soul/spirit self from his physical body.

This is where Falon'Din and Dirthamen were created. Falon'Din/Elgar'nan has ages to stew in the Fade, and plan his Vengeance against Mythal. If Cole and other more powerful Spirits/Demons can will themselves whole into the physical world, surely a god can eventually figure it out.

Falon'Din's gambit ultimately fails and he is brought to heel by the rest of the Pantheon. This is where I believe Mythal takes Falon'Din's Vengeance into herself where it becomes Justice. His powers were probably stripped as well (something like what we saw in the Epilogue of this game), and perhaps he was cast back into the Fade.

This is where things become mysterious. At some point part of the Pantheon betrays and murders Mythal. I am not sure who they were, but the phrase, "those who betrayed Mythal" is used in one of the codex entries indicating there was more than one person involved. I suspect Dirthamen (he is the master of lies and deceit), and the Mother of Hallas (always forget her name) were the ring leaders, based off of one of the codex entries that can only be translated if you drink from the Well of Sorrows. It's during this time Falon'Din became the Dread Wolf, and tricked the other gods.

Crazy ideas, but honestly I've never found any game lore more engaging than the stuff in DA:I.

Question to you, as there is a problem with this theory. Do you think solas' body is being inhabited by a spirit like flemythal?

If so then it is impossible for Solas to have been Elgar'nan. You mention the scar on his forehead and how it relates to Elgar'nan. If that's the case then solas' body would have to be Elgar'nan's original body for that scar to be there. But you say Elgar'nan goes to the fade and becomes becomes Falon'Din while a spiritless body becomes Dirthamen. So at what point does Dirthamen become Fen'Harel? Also how does a spiritless body still move around and do things?

I don't think they would manifest a scar purposefully on some random body just to represent some bad stuff that hairbrush to then in the past.

[_Aine_]

That would be a real mind ^%$#.  All the people you know end up being old gods that simply "forget" a la Cole until it is convenient.   I can hear the future forum rage from here lol 

 

 

 

Now that raises another question. Just where did he lock the other gods away? Inside bodies perhaps, and those he is are the ones that have no other body?