162 réponses à ce sujet

[xnarcosysx]

The elves don't call it the veil. And we don't know the origin of the term. There's a "Beyond" but that might not always have meant "Veil".

Right here man, look under Falon'Din:

http://dragonage.wik.../Elven_pantheon

Then click the link for Veil.

It says that Falon'Din crossed the "Veil". Then it says the Veil is a metaphysical barrier between the fade and the physical world.

I know it's a wiki but it's backed by lore. The history of this god is all about him crossing back and forth across the veil.

If so, them it existed before.

And the codex on Falon'Din is coming from a keeper who mentions the veil.

[leaguer of one]

So you're saying the elven gods willing let him lock them away? If not, then he had to trick them to get them to stay put while he did his magic. I know his name meaning. But just cause his name means rebellion doesn't mean he can't trick someone.

Also, again, there were two elven wars. The initial one where the pantheon fought. Then the one where all the elves fought because their gods had disappeared.

This second war was when arlathan fell. They destroyed it.

1.Sure, he may of tricked them but it was not a betray. Based on the story, they betrayed him and mythal first.

2.No, it was just one. The sentinal said they were out to sleep after it ended. teventor just took over an already broken people. nothing says the elves fought after the civil war.

 

Lore states it was practically an endless war.

[DaemionMoadrin]

We do not have enough data to come to any viable result. This is pointless.

[leaguer of one]

We do not have enough data to come to any viable result. This is pointless.

We have enough to know the elves destroyed themselves in a civil war among their god and Solas sealed them away. Also that the dalish got most of there history wrong. We also know these "gods" weren't really gods. These gods also enslaved others with geas' and blood write tattoo's which sounds alot like how the blight control beings over time.

[xnarcosysx]

1.Sure, he may of tricked them but it was not a betray. Based on the story, they betrayed him and mythal first.
2.No, it was just one. The sentinal said they were out to sleep after it ended. teventor just took over an already broken people. nothing says the elves fought after the civil war.

Lore states it was practically an endless war.

Yes the sentinel went to sleep because they had nothing else to do when their gods left but but not every single elf went to sleep. Only the sentinels did. The rest if the elves left warred with one another. This is stated outright, and by solas I believe. They fell apart after their gods 'left' them. So the sentinel has no clue what happened after the pantheon war because they went to sleep.

This is thoroughly covered in the 15+ page topic titled the dread wolf.

http://forum.bioware...f/?fromsearch=1

And if he did tell them about weapons or a truce and they trusted him. Then it is a betrayal because he lied

[xnarcosysx]

We do not have enough data to come to any viable result. This is pointless.

Exactly. But there are certain things we know for sure that some people just aren't getting.

[leaguer of one]

Yes the sentinel went to sleep because they had nothing else to do when their gods left but but not every single elf went to sleep. Only the sentinels did. The rest if the elves left warred with one another. This is stated outright, and by solas I believe. They fell apart after their gods 'left' them. So the sentinel has no clue what happened after the pantheon war because they went to sleep.

This is thoroughly covered in the 15+ page topic titled the dread wolf.

http://forum.bioware...f/?fromsearch=1

And if he did tell them about weapons or a truce and they trusted him. Then it is a betrayal because he lied

and nothing in the game states anything about a war the elves had after the the gods were sealed. If you going to say that put something up for the lore or dai that show this.

 

And he did not betray them they betrayed him.

[Reznore57]

I don't understand the debate about Falon'Din and Dirthamen.

The whole separated by the Veil thing is a DALISH TALE.

If the veil was created at one point , it makes sense the elves made stories to cope with it.

 

It seems their lost part of their magic and immortality.

So they created a tale to explain the whole trauma , I mean Falon 'Din found a deer and carry her to the Beyond so she can die peacefully or something.(Dalish version) in the ancient elf version Falon'din is a dude who likes to bath in his follower's blood.

Falon Din old song :

 

The people swore their lives to Falon'Din

Who mastered the dark that lies.

Whose shadow hungers

Whose faithful sing

Whose wing of death surround him

Thick as night

 

In the original version he brings death , in the Dalish version he helps people through death.

[xnarcosysx]

and nothing in the game states anything about a war the elves had after the the gods were sealed. If you going to say that put something up for the lore or dai that show this.

And he did not betray them they betrayed him.

Just cause they killed mythal it does not mean they betrayed him. There has to be some sort of promise or understanding. There wasn't one. It was war. So they didn't betray him by killing mythal. He betrayed them by promising to each about a weapon that could end the war in each of their areas, or that they stay in their areas while he works a truce between them. But then he just straight locked them up. That's betrayal because it was a lie.

And you can still betray someone if they betrayed you first. You can call it vengeance, but if a promise is involved that turns out to be a lie, that's a betrayal.

Now you're just arguing semantics. Do your own research, I'm not doing it for you. Read that topic.

[xnarcosysx]

and nothing in the game states anything about a war the elves had after the the gods were sealed. If you going to say that put something up for the lore or dai that show this.

And he did not betray them they betrayed him.

I take that back. Here

http://forum.bioware...athan-spoilers/

from the mouth of your own sentinel.

If tevinter didn't destroy arlathan, the elves themselves are the only ones left. Coming from abelas himself.

[leaguer of one]

Just cause they killed mythal it does not mean they betrayed him. There has to be some sort of promise or understanding. There wasn't one. It was war. So they didn't betray him by killing mythal. He betrayed them by promising to each about a weapon that could end the war in each of their areas, or that they stay in their areas while he works a truce between them. But then he just straight locked them up. That's betrayal because it was a lie.

And you can still betray someone if they betrayed you first. You can call it vengeance, but if a promise is involved that turns out to be a lie, that's a betrayal.

Now you're just arguing semantics. Do your own research, I'm not doing it for you. Read that topic.

So if someone who you were close with kills you closest friend you would not call it a betray?

 

Heck, even the sentinal says the other gods betrayed Mythial. Sorry, but Solas was the one betrayed.

[leaguer of one]

I take that back. Here

http://forum.bioware...athan-spoilers/

from the mouth of your own sentinel.

If tevinter didn't destroy arlathan, the elves themselves are the only ones left. Coming from abelas himself.

Dude, I can post every line the sentinals say about the war. Not one word states of a war after the fall of the gods.

[SomberXIII]

Should we call him Solas the Absorber.

[madrar]

Should we call him Solas the Absorber.

 

*rubs her temples*

 

Reposting from elsewhere, since I think this point is tripping people up a bit.  

 

Solas is, and has always been, Solas.  Same guy, same OGS- all through the ages, right up until present day Thedas.

 

It was only his representation in the Pantheon that changed.  The "Gods" of the elvish Pantheon were like masks for the actual, real mage-rulers that used them.  They were a face to present to the rest of Elvhen society: at first to their subjects, then later to their slaves and worshipers as initial deference to the Pantheon's political authority warped over the ages into demands for absolute obedience and worship. 

 

Saying Solas is Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf, and Falon'Din/Dirthmen does not make Solas greater than he is.  It doesn't give him magical "god" powers.  It simply tracks his history through the ages in terms of the Pantheon and his place in it via myths, the only scraps of twisted history that have survived.  

 

Make sense?

[madrar]

Also perhaps worth reposting here:

 

 My first reaction when the pieces fell in place was a resounding NOPE.

 

NOPE.  *toss the computer out the window*  NOOOOPE.

 

It can't be right.  I reasoned.  I know Solas.   Falon'Din was a monster, the antithesis of what I believe... no, what I know he is.  Solas is compassion.  He is fairness.  He is a stubborn, bull-headed champion of free will, tolerance, kindness, and faith in the human spirit. (ok, yes, "elven".  You know what I mean.) 

 

How can I possibly reconcile this with Falon'Din?!

 

There is a way.  Let me explain.   The Solas we know was not an illusion.  He was not "faking it" with the Inquisitor, not presenting himself as fundamentally different from what he was.  What we understand of his nature and his motivations were always, and continue to be, his true and honest beliefs.

 

The critical thing to remember is that it is his perspective, not ours, that shapes our understanding of Falon'Din's crimes.  He is telling his own story, coloring the events with a degree of recrimination, guilt and self-loathing that is not, if were we to examine it objectively, necessarily deserved.  

 

The "followers" that he describes in his story were not mindless worshipers.  What he's actually describing was a social rebellion, a failed one that Falon'Din led and encouraged, which swept through the lands of Arlathan.   In his telling he twists this into an act of pride, making the deaths of those who died a personal sacrifice to him- to ideals that he identifies so strongly with that he's blind to the fact that they were not for him.  The elves who gave their lives in the attempt fought and died because they believed in the same ideals.  They died for their own beliefs, not to vindicate his.  

 

Solas thinks they died because he was too proud, too certain, that the world should change and that he could change it.  This, I believe, the primal sin of Pride that haunts him.  But it's not true.

 

"You didn't do it to be right.  You did it to save them."

 

Cole can see it, even if Solas can't.  He didn't lead the rebellion to be right.  He did it because it was right.  Ages of guilt and sorrow have blinded him to his own motivations.  

[Reguire]

I didn't read all the replies but I want to ask some questions. Because I didn't understand the ending.

 

So what is the purpose of the orb? Why its destruction is a matter for Solas?

Did Flemeth die? Or did Solas die and Flemeth took his body?

What happens to drinker of the Well of Sorrows? Becomes the slave of Solas?

 

I don't quite get it.

[madrar]

As an addendum to that last post, it's a pretty key pick up that Mythal was the one who crushed Falon'Din's rebellion.  It's certainly confirmation-fuel for the previous theory that she was very much not on board the Freedom Train at that point, and sets things up nicely for the Triad-Conflict we see echo again and again through history with Mythal as its center:

 

The Husband (Elgar'nan)

The Wife (Mythal)

The Lover (Solas) 

 

Mythal is initially tied, by faction and the belief system that forms its foundation, to Elgar'nan- a connection recorded in myth as the joining of husband and wife. 

 

She is wooed away from this belief, embracing that of another: Solas and all that he stands for.

 

Elgar'nan, (the jealous and spurned "husband") furious at this betrayal and her adoption of new ideals, kills her.

 

One more death for Solas to carry... but important insight into the why and how of Mythal's murder.   

[madrar]

I didn't read all the replies but I want to ask some questions. Because I didn't understand the ending.

 

So what is the purpose of the orb? Why its destruction is a matter for Solas?

Did Flemeth die? Or did Solas die and Flemeth took his body?

What happens to drinker of the Well of Sorrows? Becomes the slave of Solas?

 

I don't quite get it.

 

That first question's a good one- I actually changed my mind about this, but wanted to let the original post stand so I can laugh at it later.  

 

The orb is Mythal's- of that, there is no doubt.  I believe (though I could certainly be wrong) that stripping Falon'Din of his power as a mage formed part of his punishment when he was cast down as the Dread Wolf.  Not tranquility as we know it necessarily, but something simliar- something that would render him a non-threat to the Pantheon.  

 

This was not reversed when he was restored as Fen'Harel.  As Solas (or however you want to refer to his core being to keep things straight) he only retained the innate powers unique to his OGS- much like Andruil/Sera and her marksmanship, or Sandal/June and his craft.  He could still wipe secrets, and could still walk the Fade- but that was the extent of his power.  

 

The orb then, was granted to restore limited access to magic when he rejoined the Pantheon as Fen'Harel.  It necessarily limited the scope of that power and bound its use, to some degree, to Mythal's will.  Not a direct geas on Solas, exactly- but inherent to the orb itself.  He would be unable to unlock its full potential, and the power that was granted could only be used in her service.  Magical "probation", as it were, with an indefinite length.

 

From here, it gets less certain.  Mythal, formerly firmly aligned with Elgar'nan and the forces of Absolute Order/Obedience, eventually came around to his way of thinking- the great betrayal that sparked a civil war on a huge scale, culminating in her death at the hands of Elgar'nan, the sealing of the Golden City, and the fall of the Elvish Empire.  

 

So- why does he care that it was destroyed?  Its destruction represented a significant loss to Mythal's personal power, and thus his "side" in the ongoing war between Order/Domination and Chaos/Free Will, not to mention the loss of whatever potential immediate use he intended for it.   

[SomberXIII]

This is just mind ****. I hope I don't die from revelations in future DA.

 

Sera as a vessel of Andruil is a bit too much even though I accept your theory. 

[Balek-Vriege]

My two cents:

 

What I gathered from the plot was pretty straightforward.  Basically Solas is Fen'Harel.  He didn't betray Mythal or the other gods and never was the God of Trickery or a traitor. Instead his portfolio was something along the lines of Rebellion/Freedom, with a healthy disdain for the hubris which came with being worshipped as gods and his friend Mythal was betrayed by other forces/entities in Ehlvenan.  At some point Fen'Harel imprisons the rest of the gods (likely done as punishment for killing Mythal, if the imprisonment even happened by the way), which is where the Dalish legends derive from.  He most likely got the bad rap from the remaining elven noble houses/slaves blaming him for the final fall of their civilization to Tevinter, because the rest of the elven pantheon no matter how evil, corrupt or wrong they may have been, couldn't come to their aid against an upstart Tevinter which overpowered the already crumbling Elvhenan Empire.  The true story was just lost to the ages due to elves passing it down through word of mouth as slaves, having their second empire destroyed and the Dalish once more passing history down through word of mouth until present day.

 

Back to ancient Ehlvenan.  At some point Fen'Harel became stuck, imprisoned himself or voluntarily walked the Fade ( maybe uthenera) and awoke at some point before the events of DA:I.  It's also possible he was awakened by Corypheus who sought the orb.  Whatever the case may be, upon reawakening Solas did not have enough power to reactivate the orb himself and therefore could not realize his own goals/ambitions.  So he gave the orb willingly to Corypheus (or was forced by same if Cory found him first), who would be an entity powerful enough and knowledgeable enough to reactivate it.  Solas probably intended to take the orb back from Corypheus before he could use it at the Conclave, but of course he would have been too late since a certain someone interrupts the final stages of his ritual and is accidently granted the mark, which accidently activates the orb and tears a physical portal to the fade that threatens to merge and swallow Thedas into it.

 

This suggests the orb's true purpose is to manipulate the fade and its relation to the physical world on a massive scale.  It also makes other theories more probable like the Black/Golden City being Arlathan moved to the Fade as we now have a confirmed elven invention that has that power.   It may also be the tool that imprisoned the Forgotten Ones/Elven Pantheon or was used to create places like the crossroads etc.

 

The events of DA:I occur and in the final battle with Corypheus the orb gets destroyed.  Whatever plans Solas had for it (granting himself back his godhood and having control over the Fade for whatever reason) is lost.  The only way he can possibly achieve his goals and ambitions is by going to Mythal and borrowing/taking her power, which based on developer notes, she volunteers to him since she agrees with his reasoning, but Morrigan gets her godhood/immortality from the exchange.

 

Based on Solas' and Flemeth's dialogue she says the Orb belongs to him ("You shouldn't have given Corypheus your Orb").  Based on the same dialogue, Solas/Fen'Harel's main goal appears to be helping "the people" (Elves) and that he's more suited than Mythal to do so.  It probably has something to do with the codex entry on him being true and that his portfolio was something like Rebellion/Freedom.  Since the current state of the elves in Thedas is enslavement, oppression and fragmentation, he's probably correct that he's best suited for the job of uplifting them.  Unfortunately we don't know what this "the people need me more" entails.  It could be the difference between Solas/Fen'Harel being a controversial protagonist to being the biggest bad we have seen yet.  At any rate its probably bad for Humans and good for Elves.

 

So far I haven't seen any evidence that he's more than what he is now:  Fen'Harel with the absorbed power of Mythal (not her godhood) and Urthemiel.  That doesn't mean Solas might in later installments try to steal the power of other powerful entities and merge them into himself to shape the world into a more pro elven/his image.  The OP's theory doesn't quite make sense because of his recorded disdain for the Elven pantheon then as Fan'Harel and his confirmed disdain for them as Solas (especially of Falon'Din who was a sadist sociopath god by his account).  There is no need for redemption because he didn't start the events that led to the death of Mythal or the imprisonment of the gods.  At the very most he brought justice in her name after the fact by imprisoning them.  His only crime was the events of DA:I.  Lastly Fen'Harel was always referred to as the Dread Wolf, which may have something to do with his speculated portfolio(s).

[SixthSeraph]

After reading this thread I couldn't help but believe most of it avid theories and speculations.
Some of it is justified, some of it is personal belief, but it's very interesting nonetheless.

 

The reason I came here is seeing Solas' tarot and reminding me of this thread. I spun a theory but forgot it, as it is very late here for me, but the four symbols could arguably just be demonstrating his hierophant nature, or tie in with his "Four Faces".

 

[xnarcosysx]

Dude, even Solas says they were not really gods. but he did say the dread wold did seal them away.

Omg its semantics. He even goes on to say what is a god but a powerful being. so to the elves living then maybe they were gods to them. Obviously. So it's not entirely wrong. Abelas sure thought they were. You're picking at scraps here man.

[xnarcosysx]

So if someone who you were close with kills you closest friend you would not call it a betray?

Heck, even the sentinal says the other gods betrayed Mythial. Sorry, but Solas was the one betrayed.

You're killing me guy. I DIDN'T say they didn't betray Fen'Harel in fact I agreed with you that they did. I was saying that he then turned around and betrayed then back. Do you have like a 3rd grade reading comprehension level? Seriously? Cause nothing you have quoted me on yet you've understood, or gotten right.

[leaguer of one]

Omg its semantics. He even goes on to say what is a god but a powerful being. so to the elves living then maybe they were gods to them. Obviously. So it's not entirely wrong. Abelas sure thought they were. You're picking at scraps here man.

The guy who was there god said they and he was not really a god. It's the same concept with the inquisitor and the herald of Andraste business. Even if they tell them that your not, they still act and think you are.

Abelas say the elven gods are gods is like Cassandra saying you are the herald of Andraste.

[leaguer of one]

You're liking me guy. I DIDN'T say they didn't betray Fen'Harel in fact I agreed with you that they did. I was saying that he then turned around and betrayed then back. Do you have like a 3rd grade reading comprehension level? Seriously? Cause nothing you have quoted me yet you've understood.

you don't get my point. How does an enemy betray an enemy? Betray implies a violation of trust. What trust would be left with Solas and the other gods be left after he become the god of rebellion?