162 réponses à ce sujet

[madrar]

 had a hard enough time reconciling Solas=Falon'Din=Dread Wolf. Falon'Din was a monster, but there was a chance that maybe he redeemed himself. But the idea that he is currently (until the epilogue) Solas=Dirthamen=Dread Wolf, sickens me even more because that means all the ugliness that is Tevinter and the blood of all those elven slaves is on *his* hands. Either sharing the secret to blood magic was the most epic screw-up, or he is a vicious bastard. Both are just as likely to be true.
 

 

You're missing a key point. Keep in mind who is is that tells you about Falon'Din's crimes, and think about how the guilt and pain he carries for those actions would color that description.   

 

Falon'Din was not actually a prideful monster who spilled the blood of thousands in vain rebellion.  He just thinks he was.

 

Cole: You didn't do it to be right. You did it to save them.

Inquisitor: Solas, what is Cole talking about?

Solas: A mistake. One of many made by a much younger elf who was certain he knew everything.

Cole: You weren't wrong, though.

Solas: Thank you, Cole.

 

Full theory here.

[Balek-Vriege]

@ Moirnelithe

 

Yeah I just read that direct dev quote rather than 3rd hand and thought two things:

 

1.  It's very possible now that Solas could have been Shartan.

 

2.  I really hope now that we confront Solas at some point in DA:I rather than a next installment.  Just by the write up of how Flemeth/Mythal knew Solas would kill anyone that basically stands in his way to help the elven people, combined with the Weekes interview about Lavellan romance and how the Vallaslin secret was just a cop out and he intended to tell her everything but lost his nerve, I would love to see a final showdown between a Lavellan Inquisitor and Solas/Fen'Harel.  Especially since in the same interview Weekes says that Solas/Fen'Harel was, right before he breaks away from Lavellan, almost ready to abandon his ambitions for her.

 

So if a female Lavellan Inquisitor challenges his ambitions, which one will he choose?  His favourite elf ever or the elven people as a whole?  I think the latter. 

[madrar]

This theory is fascinating. Especially since we have only had the barest of glimpses about Dirthamen because of the temple, and less information about Falon'din. Though it seems like it would make Solas a severely overpowered character. As interesting as it is, I wouldn't mind if it turns out that he is only Fen'Harel. Not the other two also. But then, to my Lavellan, he will always just be Solas. Her hahren, friend, and lover. The titles of the past mean little, though the stories are interesting, and should be preserved.

 

Though I have to say, these are some great points. I assumed Solas approved of your recitation of the tombstone due to the kindness such an act involved. The idea that he had an ulterior motive that spirals even deeper than him being Fen'harel is.. Well. Exciting. I really want to know the truth about him.

 

Another quick repost, because it seems like a big sticking point.  

 

Don't let conceiving of Solas as Falon'Din/Dirthamen suddenly make his character larger than life in your head.   You're falling prey to the exact effect hiding behind these "Gods" was intended to have on their followers.   He's still just him.  The prickly, stubborn, idealistic elf mage he's always been.

 

cut n' paste:

 

Solas is, and has always been, Solas.  Same guy, same OGS- all through the ages, right up until present day Thedas.

 

It was only his representation in the Pantheon that changed.  The "gods" of the elvish Pantheon were like masks for the actual, real mage-rulers that used them.  They presented an imposing, impressive face to the rest of Elvhen society: at first to their subjects, then later to their slaves and worshipers as initial deference to the Pantheon's political authority warped over the ages into demands for absolute obedience and worship. 

 

Saying Solas is Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf, and Falon'Din/Dirthmen does not make Solas greater than he is.  It doesn't grant him magical "god" powers.  (Though I suppose it strongly suggests what his innate OGS abilities are.)  It simply tracks his history through the ages in terms of the Pantheon and his place in it via myths, the only scraps of twisted history that have survived.  

 

Make sense?

[Moirnelithe]

@ Moirnelithe

 

Yeah I just read that direct dev quote rather than 3rd hand and thought two things:

 

1.  It's very possible now that Solas could have been Shartan.

 

2.  I really hope now that we confront Solas at some point in DA:I rather than a next installment.  Just by the write up of how Flemeth/Mythal knew Solas would kill anyone that basically stands in his way to help the elven people, combined with the Weekes interview about Lavellan romance and how the Vallaslin secret was just a cop out and he intended to tell her everything but lost his nerve, I would love to see a final showdown between a Lavellan Inquisitor and Solas/Fen'Harel.  Especially since in the same interview Weekes says that Solas/Fen'Harel was, right before he breaks away from Lavellan, almost ready to abandon his ambitions for her.

 

So if a female Lavellan Inquisitor challenges his ambitions, which one will he choose?  His favourite elf ever or the elven people as a whole?  I think the latter. 

 

His tarot card changes for the better if a Lavellan romances him, at least it looks a lot less threatening. A good sign.

[xnarcosysx]

True I should have said possibly Urthemiel's soul because 1) It's not always saved if Morrigan doesn't perform the Dark Ritual in DA:O and 2) The Developer's note only confirms that Solas is given Mythal's power/essence, but her godhood (which I assume is immortality) is given to Morrigan. So we know for sure that part of the magical soul essence going through the Eluvian is at the very least Mythal's "godhood." It may also be Urthemiel's soul if the Dark Ritual is performed as well.

However, I think it makes more sense that whatever power was to be gained from Urthemiel's soul was given to Solas in addition to Mythal's power, since they are both willing (but somewhat sadly relunctant as the scene conveys) participants of the transfer. It seems the point is to make Solas/Fen'Harel as powerful as possible so he can do whatever he feels needs to be done.
.

Good post. However I feel flemythal was pushing urthemiels soul through the eluvian, possibly to the fade, where it belongs. But if you're theory is true then what do you believe she was doing with the eluvian and what was the blue essence leaving her?

[Balek-Vriege]

Good post. However I feel flemythal was pushing urthemiels soul through the eluvian, possibly to the fade, where it belongs. But if you're theory is true then what do you believe she was doing with the eluvian and what was the blue essence leaving her?

 

Based on the developer notes and the fact that I think the scene is exactly the same whether you saved Urthemiel's soul in DA:O or not, that the blue essence is at the very least Mythal's godhood whatever that is.  Again, Mythal's faded power/essence is given to Solas which is confirmed again by the developer notes.

 

The developer notes say nothing about Urthemiel's soul and where it may have gone I think.  So it may have been consumed by Solas as a even bigger power boost or may have been whisked away with the godhood of Mythal to Morrigan, basically making her a possible counter balance to Solas in the future.

 

@Moirnelithe

 

When I saw the card change I was trying to think what it represented.  A Solas more at peace with himself and what he must do, even though he's pretty heartbroken about his relationship with Lavellan and the orb?  Or is it more to represent the fact that he doesn't want to lie and mislead those that he cares about anymore?  Less threatening for sure though.

[Xx Serissia xX]

This is the fifth face of Solas.

 

[Balek-Vriege]

MY EYES NOOOOOOOOO!!!!  THE END OF THEDAS IS HERE!!

[leaguer of one]

MY EYES NOOOOOOOOO!!!!  THE END OF THEDAS IS HERE!!

Where is your maker now!

[Riladel]

I think it is more possible that FenHarel was a Forgotten One than he combined three elven gods.

[Rawgrim]

So if Solas is third on the pantheon ladder, how come he gets beaten up by all kinds of low level thugs in the game?

[Rawgrim]

From mythology. "Solas is a demon. One of the 72 spirits of Solomon. Has a wide knowledge about astrology and herbs, and often takes the shape of a raven"

 

Not sure if this is relevant, but there might be something in it.

[Dominus]

So if Solas is third on the pantheon ladder, how come he gets beaten up by all kinds of low level thugs in the game?

Perhaps the same reason Kreia is a (relative)pushover in typical combat - Done for the sake of remaining incognito.

Thanks for the topic, Madrar. It's made for some interesting Food-For-Thought. Still need to read up on this before adding much else, though.

[Moirnelithe]

If Fen'Harel is Falon'din, wouldn't it make sense for the inquisitor to be Dirthamen? Dirthamen is secrets/wisdom, Solas does refer to the inquisitor with "You show a wisdom I have not seen since... since my deepest journeys into the ancient memories of the Fade". That line and several others with odd pauses in the romance scenes are really bothering me. At the very least he's holding something back. Those lines make me think the inquisitor is not just the inquisitor but something else as well, be it bound with a spirit or a fragment of an elven 'god'. Dirthamen is referred to as a 'he' though, not sure if the gender of a host matters at all. As of DA:I, I see elven gods everywhere :/

[madrar]

If Fen'Harel is Falon'din, wouldn't it make sense for the inquisitor to be Dirthamen? Dirthamen is secrets/wisdom, Solas does refer to the inquisitor with "You show a wisdom I have not seen since... since my deepest journeys into the ancient memories of the Fade". That line and several others with odd pauses in the romance scenes are really bothering me. At the very least he's holding something back. Those lines make me think the inquisitor is not just the inquisitor but something else as well, be it bound with a spirit or a fragment of an elven 'god'. Dirthamen is referred to as a 'he' though, not sure if the gender of a host matters at all. As of DA:I, I see elven gods everywhere :/

 

Hmm.   Interesting, but I can't agree.  I think the bulk of available evidence points to the two not being separate entities, but halves of a complete whole: the state of all original elves when the veil was first raised.  

 

After all, the Inquisitor has an entirely different external Spirit guiding her.  ^w^   Us, the player. 

[leaguer of one]

a BIG jump here but...What if Dirthamen is Dumat.

 

The god of secrets is also the old god of silence.

[madrar]

a BIG jump here but...What if Dirthamen is Dumat.

 

The god of secrets is also the old god of silence.

 

 

I've actually considered that, since their thematic connection seems obvious.  My brain starts to hurt, though.  Even if the Archdemon we know as Dumat was powered by a "piece" of Solas, which was then recovered and restored to mortal form by his spirit half when Dumat fell, it seems difficult to incorporate into what we know of the overall timeline and how his physical and spirit sides can interact.

 

It's... not entirely impossible, though.  (I don't think?  I'd have to check the timeline.)  Just difficult.  And damn interesting, since it would have significant implications about how many unrecovered OGSes remain, and the extent of his power as Falon'Din.  It would make him almost impossible to kill, unless directly attacked in the Fade.

 

Solas: "One does not lightly kill a god, Inquisitor. Even in legend."

[madrar]

Update: crap.  I think I'm on board with Solas-as-Dirthamen being Dumat, for now.  The actual Archdemon, at least.  I'm not sure my brain is ready to consider the implications if he, not Elgar'nan, was the actual source of the whispers in the ancient Magisters' dreams, leading them along the only desperate path he saw to freeing himself and his People.  

 

That... can't be.  Right?   Solas wouldn't knowingly unleash blight on the world to free himself.  Necessary deaths and sacrifice for the sake of the bigger picture, sure, but...

 

No.  Yes.  No.  

 

...shite.  

 

Maybe.  

[YCBself]

Update: crap.  I think I'm on board with Solas-as-Dirthamen being Dumat, for now.  The actual Archdemon, at least.  I'm not sure my brain is ready to consider the implications if he, not Elgar'nan, was the actual source of the whispers in the ancient Magisters' dreams, leading them along the only desperate path he saw to freeing himself and his People.  

 

That... can't be.  Right?   Solas wouldn't knowingly unleash blight on the world to free himself.  Necessary deaths and sacrifice for the sake of the bigger picture, sure, but...

 

No.  Yes.  No.  

 

...shite.  

 

Maybe.  

 

If you were trying to rebuild the foundations of the world what are a few toppled kingdoms?

[xnarcosysx]

I've actually considered that, since their thematic connection seems obvious. My brain starts to hurt, though. Even if the Archdemon we know as Dumat was powered by a "piece" of Solas, which was then recovered and restored to mortal form by his spirit half when Dumat fell, it seems difficult to incorporate into what we know of the overall timeline and how his physical and spirit sides can interact.

It's... not entirely impossible, though. (I don't think? I'd have to check the timeline.) Just difficult. And damn interesting, since it would have significant implications about how many unrecovered OGSes remain, and the extent of his power as Falon'Din. It would make him almost impossible to kill, unless directly attacked in the Fade.

Solas: "One does not lightly kill a god, Inquisitor. Even in legend."

It's not a big jump at all. That's been theorized over and over that the old elven pantheons are the old gods. Each one had a link and someone hhere already made the 7 thematic connections. In another topic. The going trend that I've seen is that the old gods are the same as the elven gods. Hense, Solas losing his complete sh** on the grey wardens and Flemythals intense interest in urthemiels soul.

[madrar]

If you were trying to rebuild the foundations of the world what are a few toppled kingdoms?

 

Indeed.  The more I think about it, the more it seems far too convenient that the Magisters were led directly to that particular Archdemon.

 

Part of my brain is still stubbornly kicking at the idea, though.  He has this on his head, and the first failed rebellion of Arlathan is the great Sin of Pride he beats himself up about?

 

I suppose even if he didn't arrange his escape, the slow leak of blight was all but inevitable anyway, but still.  Jesus, Solas.  

[YCBself]

Indeed.  The more I think about it, the more it seems far too convenient that the Magisters were led directly to that particular Archdemon.

 

Part of my brain is still stubbornly kicking at the idea, though.  He has this on his head, and the first failed rebellion of Arlathan is the great Sin of Pride he beats himself up about?

 

I suppose even if he didn't arrange his escape, the slow leak of blight was all but inevitable anyway, but still.  Jesus, Solas.  

 

You said yourself (either in this thread or another...all this mega-lore is leaking out of my brain x_x) that the Old Gods are essentially serving as a distraction on the Darkspawns road to Arlathan. It's entirely possible that Solas would look at that action and decide that it ultimately resulted in a greater good, even if it was initially done for selfish reasons. Heck, maybe he even planned it that way; his ruthless calculus justifying itself as Thedas suffers Blight after Blight, giving him the time he needs to put his plans into action, figure out a way to save the Gods that remain etc...

[madrar]

You said yourself (either in this thread or another...all this mega-lore is leaking out of my brain x_x) that the Old Gods are essentially serving as a distraction on the Darkspawns road to Arlathan. It's entirely possible that Solas would look at that action and decide that it ultimately resulted in a greater good, even if it was initially done for selfish reasons. Heck, maybe he even planned it that way; his ruthless calculus justifying itself as Thedas suffers Blight after Blight, giving him the time he needs to put his plans into action, figure out a way to save the Gods that remain etc...

 

Agreed.  That's it for me, pretty much.  I'm completely on board with this, even though it makes him a hell of a lot more ruthless than I first thought.  

 

Necessary deaths, huh.

 

I suppose he's keeping the "important" parts safe on the other side, so it's hard to fault him entirely. Now the critical problem is this: whether Elgar'nan is still in uthenera, or dead and OGS fade-wiped, depending on the timeline.  Or actually, to back up a bit- whether that even matters, given that it's still unclear whether the Sun infected him or vice-versa.  

 

Either way, we've got a very old, very blighted, very pissed Dragon God waiting in the void that we're eventually going to have to deal with, or the blight will slowly and inevitably win.  

[madrar]

My god.

 

The Dread Wolf + Falon'Din = Anubis connection just hit me over the head hard. 

 

Ancient Arlathan and the rituals of Uthenera.  The oils.  The herbs.  The wrapping.

 

And for Solas himself: his obvious role as Guide to the Dead.  His tight connection to the concept of balance.  Even the "weighing of souls" involved in elvish reincarnation, in so far as it could refer to his ability to literally decide a individual's karmic fate in the granting of new mortal form.  

 

Jesus.  If I were Gaider, I'd have taken up drinking to cope with how much we miss of the intricate ties that have been set up here.  I feel like I owe the guy a personal apology every time a new piece slides neatly in place.  =w=