243 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Tbh, yes, I believe they will buy the game at full price (I even saw such comments recently). Especially if EA/Bioware will not lower the price for quite some time after release and the game turns out to be amazing (which I hope it will).

I do expect a drop of preorder rate for ME:Next, especially after bug-littered Dragon Age Inquisition release.

 

What you say about them keeping in mind. Do you know how they can address that? By making an amazing game that people won't regret getting at full price. Which, I think, will be beneficial for everyone

People would buy ME3 full price strictly for the MP?  

 

I wish I had that kind of money to spend.

 

At any rate what is "an amazing game"?  I'm sure they thought ME3 was amazing.  With an "awesome", artistic way to end the trilogy.  How well did that work out?

 

No, a way to address is would be to be upfront that they screwed up.  That they didn't do right for a bunch of their fans, and that MENext will address that.  Which is, in a way, how DAI was marketed.

People didn't like small resused dungeons?  Show them large, unique areas.

Didn't like being stuck in one city? Here's two entire nations' worth of largely open world.  

Didn't like only being able to play a human?  All four races are now open 

 

And so on.

 

IT would probably be harder to do that with MENext, given the ending is the big sticking point, and that would be rather spoilery to show at a con.  But showing at least a little contrition at what they did to their fans would sure help.  Not "Gee how were we supposed to know our fans wouldn't 'get it'"?

I met many people in this forum over the past few years that swore they would never buy another Bioware product again. Many were very emotional and adamant; I can think of a couple of people posting over 10'000 times how they hate ME3 and all things Bioware.

 

Come mid -November 2014, many of these people have their nice shiny DA:I avatars and Bioware has the most successful launch in its history. Considering the  bad sales performance of DA2, I wondered where all this extra fan interest came from. I suspect a lot of it smuggled over from this franchise.

 

I've yet to buy into the brand again myself. I saw enough of DA:I to know it would not interest me.  I pre-ordered TW3 and saving my cash for a serious rig to play the thing

 

Cannot comment on ME:NG the hype train for that hasn't left the terminus yet

Part of DAI's marketing was also how they studied the success of Skyrim and figured how to apply it to Thedas.  No doubt they got some people interested based on that.

 

Once the MENExt hype drain pulls from the station, I fully expect some Borderlands comparisons, given the whole Mako thing.

[Vazgen]

People would buy ME3 full price strictly for the MP?  

 

I wish I had that kind of money to spend.

 

At any rate what is "an amazing game"?  I'm sure they thought ME3 was amazing.  With an "awesome", artistic way to end the trilogy.  How well did that work out?

 

No, a way to address is would be to be upfront that they screwed up.  That they didn't do right for a bunch of their fans, and that MENext will address that.  Which is, in a way, how DAI was marketed.

People didn't like small resused dungeons?  Show them large, unique areas.

Didn't like being stuck in one city? Here's two entire nations' worth of largely open world.  

Didn't like only being able to play a human?  All four races are now open 

Me too. I did see people saying that they will get ME:Next if it has a multiplayer close to the one in ME3.

 

Being upfront that "they screwed up" is not a way to address it at all. First, It will raise doubts about the next game for people who are yet to get into the series. Second, it will be unfair to the fans who did like the endings (and yes, there are people like that). "Oh, you like it? Too bad, devs themselves confirmed that it's sh*t".

 

Dragon Age 2 was criticized for gameplay. Showing gameplay for the next game is easy. Showing story... not so much. Unless you wish a full walkthrough before the game's release because they can "screw up" at any point of the plot. And I read more than one complaint about false advertisements regarding the gameplay of Dragon Age Inquisition.

[fraggle]

At any rate what is "an amazing game"?  I'm sure they thought ME3 was amazing.  With an "awesome", artistic way to end the trilogy.  How well did that work out?

 

No, a way to address is would be to be upfront that they screwed up.  That they didn't do right for a bunch of their fans, and that MENext will address that.  Which is, in a way, how DAI was marketed.

People didn't like small resused dungeons?  Show them large, unique areas.

Didn't like being stuck in one city? Here's two entire nations' worth of largely open world.  

Didn't like only being able to play a human?  All four races are now open

 

We should probably keep in mind that not everyone can be satisfied, they know it and we know it.

So why would they address that they screwed up, just because many people don't like the ending? I mean, they probably wouldn't have done it like that if they didn't want to have that ending, I guess? It's perfectly fine if people don't like it (I like it), as it simply boils down to your own taste, but I cannot help but feel that devs should not necessarily need to justify why they did what they did. It's still their game and story after all, and if people so desperately want certain things, maybe start a career in the gaming industry

Jokes aside...

Of course, it's nice to see when they take criticism to heart, and show fans what they want to see. You listed a lot that no doubt most people wanted after DA2, and they did make everything larger and more versatile. But now I see people complain that the huge areas seem empty, that there are too many stupid fetchquests, and too few quests tied to the area and/or story, and most of all that the main story is too short.

People will always have something they want in games. I find it great that devs listen to complaints and problems, but imagine how you'd feel. You think you give fans what they want and yet they still b*tch about it. It's fine to critizise, I do it too, but there's so much hostility for the people that bring us these great games, I think it's a bit unfair.

 

I'm sure that once the new ME is out, no matter what BW try to do to please the fans, there'll be a sh*tload of problems that fans see with the game, and even if it's only "It's not as good as the old games because there's no Shepard".

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Three years ago, on March 22 @ 3:10 a.m. Светлана collapsed on the floor near the panel on The Citadel next to the dead Captain Anderson. I thought the story was over and I was in tears waiting for the final cutscene when the Crucible fired and destroyed the reapers. That would have been epic.

 

Instead the elevator rose and we got

 

 

At 3:22 am the galaxy had blown up.

[Iakus]

Me too. I did see people saying that they will get ME:Next if it has a multiplayer close to the one in ME3.

 

Being upfront that "they screwed up" is not a way to address it at all. First, It will raise doubts about the next game for people who are yet to get into the series. Second, it will be unfair to the fans who did like the endings (and yes, there are people like that). "Oh, you like it? Too bad, devs themselves confirmed that it's sh*t".

 

Dragon Age 2 was criticized for gameplay. Showing gameplay for the next game is easy. Showing story... not so much. Unless you wish a full walkthrough before the game's release because they can "screw up" at any point of the plot. And I read more than one complaint about false advertisements regarding the gameplay of Dragon Age Inquisition.

Liking the endings we got is fine.  But players wanted and expected more,  Admitting they failed to create the variety that players wanted isn't saying that the endings we did get was sh*t.

 

DA2 was criticized for story too:  That Hawke wasn't "heroic" enough, that the Kirkwall was too confining, that choices didn't matter.  And even, yes, that the ending sucked.  So we get a "save the world" story where the Inquisitor hobnobs with the rich and famous of Thedas, We get to decide the fate of empires.  And an ending charitably described as "safe"

 

Yes, you can't easily show story.  I said that before.  But at least acknowledging past missteps shows that learning took place.

[Iakus]

Jokes aside...
Of course, it's nice to see when they take criticism to heart, and show fans what they want to see. You listed a lot that no doubt most people wanted after DA2, and they did make everything larger and more versatile. But now I see people complain that the huge areas seem empty, that there are too many stupid fetchquests, and too few quests tied to the area and/or story, and most of all that the main story is too short.
People will always have something they want in games. I find it great that devs listen to complaints and problems, but imagine how you'd feel. You think you give fans what they want and yet they still b*tch about it. It's fine to critizise, I do it too, but there's so much hostility for the people that bring us these great games, I think it's a bit unfair.

I'm sure that once the new ME is out, no matter what BW try to do to please the fans, there'll be a sh*tload of problems that fans see with the game, and even if it's only "It's not as good as the old games because there's no Shepard".

Yeah people complain about DAI.  I'll admit there's a lot of valid complaints too. But the complaints concerning DAI are in general much milder than ME3's (well, except for complaints about PC controls.  That's still pretty toxic) And for myself,  DAI didn't make me regret getting into the Dragon Age series the way ME3 made me regret getting into Mass Effect.  It's that bad to me. 

 

I can't fathom how they thought that those endings would be accepted.  I can't believe the backlash took them by surprise.  

[fraggle]

I can't fathom how they thought that those endings would be accepted.  I can't believe the backlash took them by surprise.  

 

Because they probably believed in it. And if they like it and stand for it, it's no wonder that backlashing of the endings took them by surprise.

I believe it's a simple matter of being proud of something you created. You get your game out and are immensely proud of it because you put a lot of work into it, just to see it getting that much hate.

[Vazgen]

Liking the endings we got is fine.  But players wanted and expected more,  Admitting they failed to create the variety that players wanted isn't saying that the endings we did get was sh*t.

 

DA2 was criticized for story too:  That Hawke wasn't "heroic" enough, that the Kirkwall was too confining, that choices didn't matter.  And even, yes, that the ending sucked.  So we get a "save the world" story where the Inquisitor hobnobs with the rich and famous of Thedas, We get to decide the fate of empires.  And an ending charitably described as "safe"

 

Yes, you can't easily show story.  I said that before.  But at least acknowledging past missteps shows that learning took place.

People have different problems with the endings. Some reject the whole idea, some don't want to see the Catalyst, some are sad their Shepard died, some just wish a Suicide Mission v2 for Priority: Earth... You can't make a statement that addresses all these without being too vague and/or saying "we screwed up" and in both of these cases, that statement won't do any good.

Also, even if they somehow manage to make such a statement, people will say "they lied before, why trust them now?". The only way to combat that is to show actual game footage which will have to be rather spoilery (and even that can't be a proof - infamous storytelling trailer). 

I'd rather have them completely focus on ME:Next, without making any mentions of the trilogy. Tell "ME:Next has this cool feature", not "ME:Next returns to the roots of the trilogy". 

[Iakus]

Because they probably believed in it. And if they like it and stand for it, it's no wonder that backlashing of the endings took them by surprise.

I believe it's a simple matter of being proud of something you created. You get your game out and are immensely proud of it because you put a lot of work into it, just to see it getting that much hate.

There's a difference between being proud of something and knowing others won't like it.  I can put a lot of work into a project, be proud of the outcome, and still know that others wouldn't go for it.

 

When the first rumors of what the ending was like started to come down the pike, I dismissed them, believing that no professional writer would be so foolish as to let things end that way.  Boy was I wrong!  I knew exactly what would happen and I'm not a writer!

 

People have different problems with the endings. Some reject the whole idea, some don't want to see the Catalyst, some are sad their Shepard died, some just wish a Suicide Mission v2 for Priority: Earth... You can't make a statement that addresses all these without being too vague and/or saying "we screwed up" and in both of these cases, that statement won't do any good.

Also, even if they somehow manage to make such a statement, people will say "they lied before, why trust them now?". The only way to combat that is to show actual game footage which will have to be rather spoilery (and even that can't be a proof - infamous storytelling trailer). 

I'd rather have them completely focus on ME:Next, without making any mentions of the trilogy. Tell "ME:Next has this cool feature", not "ME:Next returns to the roots of the trilogy". 

Given how many different reasons why the ending is so unpopular, I'd say the endings failed on many, many levels

 

And yes, there would be an element of "Why trust them now?"  After EC, I'm certainly going to be one of them.  It certainly won't be easy to earn trust back.  As teh saying goes 'Trust is a currency that's hard to earn and easily spent"  And boy did they spend their trust!

 

And however much they may want to focus exclusively on MENext, that simply isn't going to happen.  The endings will be on people's minds.  Questions will be asked.  Bioware wanted to crete an epic science fiction trilogy story, but the ending eclipsed everything.  The ending is how the trilogy is remembered. 

 

The destination is important after all

[God]

BW shouldn't need to apologize for anything in this case. If fans don't like it, that's their problem. Especially since the concerns more or less boil down to not liking the ending because it's not what they wanted it to be. 

 

Doesn't matter what you wanted it to be. All that matters is what is. If you can't deal with it, move on to something else. They have zero obligation to satisfy your personal tastes.

[fraggle]

And however much they may want to focus exclusively on MENext, that simply isn't going to happen.  The endings will be on people's minds.  Questions will be asked.  Bioware wanted to crete an epic science fiction trilogy story, but the ending eclipsed everything.  The ending is how the trilogy is remembered. 

 

Then I'm really sorry, this is the player's own fault. If they really can't let go of the ending at all and still rage after years, something's not right imo. Let the past stay dead and either

1. overcome the bitterness and be open-minded in regards of the new game

2. move on to other games

[Iakus]

1 Given the worry about possible save imports, that's not as easy as it is for other games.  There is a very real risk of the endings becoming part of the next story.  That's one downside to the whole import process:  being stuck with such design choices beyond the game.

 

2 Sadly there aren't a whole lot of science fiction rpgs.  Or decent rpgs in general.  Which is part of why Bioware's betrayal stings people so much.  Here's hoping Pillars of Eternity, at least, will help.

[Arcian]

BW shouldn't need to apologize for anything in this case. If fans don't like it, that's their problem. Especially since the concerns more or less boil down to not liking the ending because it's not what they wanted it to be.

 

Doesn't matter what you wanted it to be. All that matters is what is. If you can't deal with it, move on to something else. They have zero obligation to satisfy your personal tastes.

They do have more than zero obligations to not straight up lie to us. People aren't angry because the ending's not like they personally envisioned, they're angry because the ending was nothing like BioWare promised with their own words coming out of their own mouths in countless interviews made before the game shipped. Take your pick.

[fraggle]

One comment in this thread already stood out for me:

 

"Nice topic. You should also list the dates of the quotes to know where in the development cycle the product was at the time. Claims made in the month before release should be viewed differently than ones made a year before release."

 

Development during a game is constantly changing, everyone knows that. You might have big ideas as a dev, but not the time, and are forced to do something else.

Also, what devs say or promise might be interpreted differently by fans. Then they get their hopes up and will most likely be disappointed.

I had that in DAI. They showed material I was really eager to see in the game, then it was cut. And I was extremely sad that it got cut, but I also understand that nothing is final during a development cycle until the game is out and it could happen anytime that content does not make it in the end. No need to rage about some promises.

[Arcian]

One comment in this thread already stood out for me:

 

"Nice topic. You should also list the dates of the quotes to know where in the development cycle the product was at the time. Claims made in the month before release should be viewed differently than ones made a year before release."

 

Development during a game is constantly changing, everyone knows that. You might have big ideas as a dev, but not the time, and are forced to do something else.

Also, what devs say or promise might be interpreted differently by fans. Then they get their hopes up and will most likely be disappointed.

I had that in DAI. They showed material I was really eager to see in the game, then it was cut. And I was extremely sad that it got cut, but I also understand that nothing is final during a development cycle until the game is out and it could happen anytime that content does not make it in the end. No need to rage about some promises.

Translation: Stop being mad you guys, false marketing is totally a legitimate business strategy.

[Tex]

I'll never understand all the hate that mass effect 3 got the only ending I personally didn't like was destroy yes I know I'm in the minority and so as long as the next mass effect has playable races then I will be pre-ordering the most expensive one available if not then I won't touch it with a ten foot pole "sigh" but that's just me.

[God]

Translation: Stop being mad you guys, false marketing is totally a legitimate business strategy.

 

Translation for you:

 

I'm mad that I didn't get what I wanted, and am willing to throw away logic and reason in that anger. How dare people not be as outraged as I am.

[Winterking]

Translation for you:

 

I'm mad that I didn't get what I wanted, and am willing to throw away logic and reason in that anger. How dare people not be as outraged as I am.

I think more that he didn't get what was promised. Those statements by the Bioware team regarding the ending were misleading at  best if not outright lies at worse. 

 

Even the Better Business Buerau felt that Bioware falsely advertised Mass Effect 3.

 

http://news.softpedi...-3-264207.shtml

[AlanC9]

The actual statement is a bit more nuanced that the Softpedia excerpt makes it sound. Which is quite ironic, since the point was precisely that companies shouldn't make statements that can be misleading when taken out of context.

[prosthetic soul]

Translation for you:

 

I'm mad that I didn't get what I wanted, and am willing to throw away logic and reason in that anger. How dare people not be as outraged as I am.

nice strawman.

 

Also, If the a consumer doesn't like a product, I'm pretty sure it isn't the consumer's problem.  It's the business' provider's problem.  What kind of upside down world do you live in where valid complaints from a customer are to be discarded and thrown away?   I didn't appreciate being lied to when I bought Mass Effect 3.  Ergo, I will not be purchasing Mass Effect 4. Visa vi, Bioware loses one sale due to their egregious lies.  Yeah it's a drop in the bucket but a lost sale is a lost sale.  Therefore, it is not MY problem. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

With DA:I, I didn't pay that much attention to the pre-release hype. Honestly, I wasn't that invested in the series. I was planning to buy the game. Yes, I played pretty much all but the Dwarf commoner Origin. I did four runs of DA2, the last one with both DLCs a month before release of DA:I just to set the mood. Then I played DA:I. I had no idea of what to expect. I played it on the XBox 360. Sure it wasn't the greatest looking there, but it was quite playable. I thought the story was well done, and the ending was just what I wanted. I'm shallow that way. I've only played it once - 160 hrs was enough. I wanted to play it again, but not AGAIN. I wish the encounters and quests were leveled so I could skip a lot of the side quests and fetch stuff just so I didn't have to level up to do finish everything. So I'm done with the story until the DLC comes out, then I'll load up my last play through and play the DLC.

 

one play through of 600 hrs on Oblivion was enough as well. Same with Skyrim.

[God]

nice strawman.

 

Also, If the a consumer doesn't like a product, I'm pretty sure it isn't the consumer's problem.  It's the business' provider's problem.  What kind of upside down world do you live in where valid complaints from a customer are to be discarded and thrown away?   I didn't appreciate being lied to when I bought Mass Effect 3.  Ergo, I will not be purchasing Mass Effect 4. Visa vi, Bioware loses one sale due to their egregious lies.  Yeah it's a drop in the bucket but a lost sale is a lost sale.  Therefore, it is not MY problem. 

 

I live in the world where complaints directed towards people who create art based on the complainee not liking the art because it doesn't satisfy them are not taken seriously.

 

Judge ME4 on the merits of ME3. Go ahead and do it. Granted, it's rather silly to completely write off an entire game that hasn't been released yet just because you didn't like the ending of the game that came before it.

 

Be fine dwelling in a stew of cynicism. I don't care, and BW doesn't care. 

[God]

It is far less silly for someone to embargo a brand when the consumer perceives a drop in brand quality and/or a change in brand values during the timeline of a consumer's relationship with a brand than it is to  maintain a long term brand loyalty and/or engage in pre-release purchase and early adoption support of a brand's products on brand name alone.

 

True. But that's not what this guy is doing. 

 

He's judging a game that we honestly don't have that much information on on the basis of him not being emotionally satisfied with the ending of the last game.

[AlanC9]

Three years ago, on March 22 @ 3:10 a.m. Светлана collapsed on the floor near the panel on The Citadel next to the dead Captain Anderson.

How do you pronounce "Светлана"?