100 réponses à ce sujet

[Nefla]

She's a writer's pet like Liara.

[AzureAardvark]

In a world of magic, spirits, and demons, the idea that there is zero chance Leliana to be alive after the Urn of Sacred Ashes choice is silly...

 

Imagine a reader in Thedas with a book on the 5th Blight that doesn't mention the ritual (because there's only three people at most that know about it).

 

"What?!?! The Warden didn't die with the arch demon?!?! BS!?!? F'in Gaider!" /raaAAAaaage

 

Actually, come to think of it, that's me. :/

[Ashagar]

Please, the tower has no security, and if an assassin is put off by height, then he might want to think of a new line of work. The guy from the Milk Tray adverts could get in there..Get in a professional like Ezio from Assassin's Creed and he'd do the job for free, its so easy.

 

You see assassins are cunning fellows. They tend to show up at night, and wear black so patrolling guards can't spot them. Devilish of them, I know... And they bring specialized gear to help them climb to high places. You wouldn't know it from the assassins you meet in DA, where the standard MO of the Antivan Crows for example, seems to be getting anywhere between 12-25 guys and just swarming the target.

 

And before you declare the fortress is 'impenetrable', let's consider that in several war room operations, its revealed that the Venatori already have spies in the Castle. Also, the House of Repose is able to get an assassin into Josephine's office and right up to her desk before he's caught. And that's even after they graciously warned you that they were after her.

 

I hate to break to you but just because you don't see security doesn't mean its not there and two only a idiot assassin would wear black, shades of very dark blue stand out far less at night.

[KaiserShep]

She's a writer's pet like Liara.

 

I think both she and Morrigan have about the same level of exposure.

[Ashagar]

Point is - if Bioware ever wants to hint that a certain character may not be dead, or leave their death ambiguous, they do a conscious effort of showing that to the player.

 

Killing Flemeth in DA:O updates her codex entry with a sentence that hints that she might not be 100% dead after all.

 

You get to stab Morrigan in a cutscene and she is never specifically shown dead.

 

Corypheus in Legacy is highly implied to have lived due to Larius/Janeka strutting around after Corypheus looks at them right after his last words, along with their manner of speech changing.

 

Notice how they dedicate resources into hinting the survival of certain characters so that the players might not be surprised if they turn out to be alive in future installments. This never happens with Leliana. Why isn't there a special cutscene? Why couldn't we just get a cutscene where we stab Leliana and leave her to "die"? Why doesn't her codex entry state that she might have lived (funnily enough, in DA2 where she got retconned, it does, which further illustrates my point)

 

And yeah, there's a chance that Leliana survived, in a world of magic, spirits, and demons. There's also a chance that Voldemort might not truly be dead and that he gets resurrected for whatever reason JK Rowling chooses in the next book installment. No biggie right, it's a world of magic.

 

And the only viable explanation for Leliana's "survival" is the huge amounts of lyrium in the temple which are only speculated by Ogrhren to give the ashes its magical properties, which is largely debunked by the fact that there is another dead body in the same area where you get to kill Leliana.

 

She was established as dead, and then was later retconned. There is a small chance that Leliana survived because this is a "world of magic, spirits, and demons", but that didn't happen, she was just retconned.

 

except that she turns up in DA2 as the agent of the divine so clearly either a. the warden failed to kill her or b. the maker saved her.
 

[Marshal Moriarty]

The number of guards on the ramparts isn't the issue for a position like that. The tower has a very large window and balcony with a clear view of the bed! If an assassin sneaks up there, its good night Vienna. Tower quarters are not defensible if they have windows - any security consultant could tell you that. In a world where there are dedicated guilds of assassins whop pride themselves on being able to reach the most unassasinable targets, this is a ridiculous chance to take, just for the sake of a nice view!

 

The House of Repose quest proves that espionage agents can and do infilitrate these places. You need a room with no windows, and at least 4-5 guards in close proximity at all times, checking on either other. An assassin could easily secrete himself in the tower itself and simply wait for an opportune moment. I'm willing to believe that the guards *are* there, but they feel we don't need to see them for game purposes.

 

But my opinion is that we *do* need to see them. It brings me back to why I always preferred the Normandy of ME1 - because the security presence was visible, and the ship felt like a proper military operation, run tight. The sequels made it into a cross between the batcave and the love boat. Its a cosmetic thing, but it matters for getting the tone across. I intensely disliked the ultra laid back, genre friendly presentation of Skyhold. As Iron Bull constantly berates Varric about - some people care about the realism, damn it!

 

Edit: Well, excuse me Ashagar for not being quite up on my assasination proceedures. I'll get right on that... I trust the actual assassins would know the correct tools for the job though yes? And don't come high and mighty with your 'I hate to break it you' - I know full well that just because something isn't on screen, doesn't mean we can't infer it is there. Numbers of troops will always seem ridiculous, if you just go by what the system is capable of putting on screen. I remember Elder Scrolls Oblivion, where the various cities would send their soldiers for your army - and they were represented as just 1 or 2 soldiers! Please don't assume people are idiots who can't work these things out.

 

The fact is Josephine was nearly killed in her office, and if not for the Ben Hassrath, Leliana would never have known there were Venatori spies in Skyhold. The Hard in Hightown 3 book is smuggled in without her knowledge, and that aspect is never resolved, since the murderer insists they didn't do that (they've copped to the murder - why would they lie about the lesser crime?)  She was the one responsible for Haven's early warning, and it was her abject failure on this that nearly got everyone killed. The laughable security is just the icing on the cake. I don't see how after Haven, anybody could defend Inquisition security.

[Ashagar]

The best security is that you don't see, assassins can't avoid what they don't see.

[moxiegraphix]

Glad i'm not the only one confused... is that in DA2 cause i never really played that more then halfway through... but Allistair isn't in DA2 is he?

 

This may have been answered already (haven't read all the responses yet) but, yes, Alistair is. Briefly. You can find him at one point in a tavern drunk and feeling terribly sorry for himself if you had an unhardened Alistair and he ran away when you decided to conscript Loghain.

OR, he can show up as King Alistair and you get a little scene with him.

 

OR, he can show up as a Warden and you get a little scene with him.

[movieguyabw]

Then how about, like any RPG, we call it "living with the consequences of your actions." You kill Leliana in Origins, but too bad, the Maker has other plans for her, so she's healed. And she is not happy about the "hero" of Ferelden killing her.

 

I kind of feel like people are expecting every choice to drastically change the landscape of the series.  The whole resurrection of Leliana might seem like a complete reversal of a player's decision in Origins - but it does change her personality, and her outlook on the world.  (her "There are no such things as heroes" line comes to mind)  It might not seem like much compared to other decisions - but it's nowhere near the level of choicelessess I've seen in some other RPGs. 

 

One of my favorite examples is from a Yugioh-themed RPG I remember playing when I was young.  The only choice you are presented with in the game is when the villain is attempting to drown Yugi.  You are asked if you want to save him.  If you click "No", the villain laughs, and the game asks you again.  You can keep saying "No" as many times as you want, but it's going to keep asking you until you say "Yes".

 

Final Fantasy games rarely offer any sort of choice/consequences, Elder Scrolls games usually have multiple outcomes in their quests - but none with any lasting consequences.  (Aside from maybe quests that make you a Vampire/Werewolf)   Personally, I find Bioware tends to handle the whole choice/consequence situation the best - at least from the games I've played. Sure, it usually boils down to an illusion of choice - whether Alistair or Loghain are with the Grey Wardens at the end of Origins doesn't really affect much in Inquisition - as no matter what you have a Grey Warden companion with you during Into the Abyss.  It's more of a flavor thing, really.  Having Alistair is going to feel a bit different from having Loghain, which will feel slightly different from Stroud; despite the fact that events will play out relatively the same regardless of who is with you.  But if they were to write a completely different mission for every single possible outcome, we'd likely never get to play Inquisition - it'd take far too long to make it.

 

Same thing is true with Leliana.  Yes, they *could* have created a new character to take her place - but creating an alternate spymaster only for the people who killed her in the first game seems like a huge waste of resources, IMO.  And it's likely they wanted to bring her back anyway. (she was a fan favorite afterall)  So, she's resurrected by something, her outlook on life is changed a bit and she now hates the Warden.  It's still a consequence for your actions in Origins... it's just not the one you were originally expecting. 

[AshenEndymion]

Except it's still a retcon. The explanation for her retcon does not make it any less of a retcon. There was nothing hinting at Leliana's survival or the warden failing to kill her in DA:O. "Maker saved her" or "warden failed to kill her" is just the reason for how her death got retconned. She was established as dead, and then she wasn't. Every character whose death was supposed to be ambiguous was made so. Leliana's wasn't.

 

I agree it's a retcom.  I just disagree that there is required to be some important reason for the retcon presented immediately...  I also disagree with the idea that the Leliana's retcon destroys the idea that dead people will stay dead...

 

But for the record, Wynne's death wasn't made ambiguous either(I'm talking about her death in the Circle Tower, specifically)...  And Evangeline being alive in DAI says that Wynne survived, too...  It bothers me that people get annoyed about Leliana but forget about Wynne(and rather conveniently, too)...

[movieguyabw]

I'm not defending the retcons of other characters. Oghren's death got retconned, as did Anders'. I didn't read the book so I can't comment on Wynne, but it wouldn't surprise me if she got retconned either. Just saying Leliana was an obvious retcon and it's pretty ludicrous to try to say otherwise.

 

Retcons happen in fiction all the time, though.  Getting upset that something is retconned is like getting upset that a hero somehow triumphs over insurmountable odds (IMO, at least)

 

Idk, I understand the whole "it makes our choice meaningless" argument (like I outlined in my last post, I don't agree with that however) - but the whole "it's a retcon!" argument seems rather empty to me, personally.

 

Get in a professional like Ezio from Assassin's Creed and he'd do the job for free, its so easy.

 

...Isn't Ezio superhuman?  0o  I vaguely remember in Assassins Creed 2 they established that the Assassins were descended from aliens or something, and that gave them enhanced speed and strength.  (I may be misremembering - it's been a while, I never actually completed the game, and I never played the others - I do want to say that was revealed in a cutscene however)

[AzureAardvark]

They tend to show up at night, and wear black so patrolling guards can't spot them. Devilish of them, I know... And they bring specialized gear to help them climb to high places. 

 

No, they wear plain clothes, come in during the day with the traders, and walk in through the kitchen.

 

 

Idk, I understand the whole "it makes our choice meaningless" argument (like I outlined in my last post, I don't agree with that however) - but the whole "it's a retcon!" argument seems rather empty to me, personally.

 

I like seeing Leliana again (never killed her in my PTs, you monsters!); on the other hand, I can empathize with folks not wanting retcons.  The quickest way for me to lose interest in an IP is a significant number of retcons (well, that and Jar Jar Binks).

[movieguyabw]

No, they wear plain clothes, come in during the day with the traders, and walk in through the kitchen.

 

This.  Fun fact - wearing all black, and carrying around gear to scale a wall is a good way to look like you don't belong somewhere. 

[NotBeouwulf]

Its a numbers game.  Even if your spymaster prevents 99.9% of assassination attempts, one in a thousand will get thru.  Josephine is especially vulnerable as she constantly deals with strangers and may encourage Leliana to not frisk them too hard to avoid insulting them.

[AzureAardvark]

Its a numbers game.  Even if your spymaster prevents 99.9% of assassination attempts, one in a thousand will get thru.  Josephine is especially vulnerable as she constantly deals with strangers and may encourage Leliana to not frisk them too hard to avoid insulting them.

 

It would be hilarious if hardened Leliana had a cut scene with strangers coming into see Josephine ... something short and simple, just an off camera: *snap!* "Rubber glove time."

[movieguyabw]

Never did I say I was upset, nor the fact that retcons happen all the time make Leliana's retcon any less of a retcon.

 

 

My apologies - I thought you were implying you were upset.

 

It's a retcon, whether you like it or not. The argument certainly isn't empty, because I am simply stating facts.

 

Never said it wasn't - as I said; retcons happen all the time, however.  The "argument comes off as empty" thing was in regards to the people who have been saying that it being a retcon makes it a bad thing; rather than just a thing.

[errantknight]

I expect they wanted a spymaster you might actually care about whether they went to the darkside of not. As for Alistair's execution and why he died but not Leliana...we didn't actually see it, did we? We just saw him being led off. Right now that Alistair is shrodinger's Theirin.

 

If they were to decide/have decided that Alistair is best for an Anderfels story (ie), there's reallly nothing impeding that.

[AshenEndymion]

Its a numbers game.  Even if your spymaster prevents 99.9% of assassination attempts, one in a thousand will get thru.  Josephine is especially vulnerable as she constantly deals with strangers and may encourage Leliana to not frisk them too hard to avoid insulting them.

 

And sometimes even if the assassin gets through, s/he doesn't actually finish the job because the target trips and dies in the fall... 

 

Unrelated -- I like to think that Zevran never did kill anyone during those War Table Missions(and thus, still hasn't really gotten an "official assassination" under his belt)...  He just took all the credit, like usual...

[NotBeouwulf]

The The Iron Bull Assassination is easily explained as The Iron Bull telling her to let them attack knowing the Ben Hassrath will continue sending assassins until they attack The Iron Bull.

[Tsunami Chef]

She has way to much content involving her to either totally dissolve her into a random spy master or replace her entirely with a new character.

 

Anyone who played ME3 gets a sense of this despite them being different scenarios.....Kaiden and Ashley had almost no content in comparison to the other companions because Bioware had to split resources between them....considering Leliana has way more dialogue/content than either of them in ME3, it is obvious how big of a task it would have been to make another spymaster.

She is also the only reason Josephine joined the inquisition.

[AshenEndymion]

She has way to much content involving her to either totally dissolve her into a random spy master or replace her entirely with a new character.

 

Anyone who played ME3 gets a sense of this despite them being different scenarios.....Kaiden and Ashley had almost no content in comparison to the other companions because Bioware had to split resources between them....considering Leliana has way more dialogue/content than either of them in ME3, it is obvious how big of a task it would have been to make another spymaster.

She is also the only reason Josephine joined the inquisition.

 

Bam.  It took 74 posts, but we finally found the reason why the Maker keeps Leliana alive.

 

Clearly Tsunami Chef is an oracle with a direct line to the Maker.  We should all ask them what happens in DA4.

[movieguyabw]

It's not bad, it's just jarring. It implies a certain lack of care for continuity on BW's side. Leliana's retcon isn't the only retcon in the DA games ether, but I just find it odd that people are willing to argue that it isn't a retcon.

 

People have argued that it isn't?  0o  I actually haven't seen any posts like that - or maybe I just misread them... but I was under the impression the people arguing in favor of Leliana remaining alive have been taking the stance that "it happened, and any argument that she couldn't possibly have come back to life can be easily explained away"  which is kind of how retcons are usually handled, anyway.  o0

[Nefla]

I think both she and Morrigan have about the same level of exposure.

If it were up to me, I'd leave past characters in the past and have each new game focus on a completely new story and new companions.

[movieguyabw]

If it were up to me, I'd leave past characters in the past and have each new game focus on a completely new story and new companions.

 

Eh, it kind of takes away from the feeling that the game takes place in the same series, IMO.  Unless they're going to pull an Elder Scrolls and have every game take place hundreds of years in the future (which in that case, it wouldn't be called "Dragon Age", anyway) I don't see how you could avoid having returning characters - especially when some of them wind up as major players in the world by the end of the games.  *shrug*

[Nefla]

Eh, it kind of takes away from the feeling that the game takes place in the same series, IMO.  Unless they're going to pull an Elder Scrolls and have every game take place hundreds of years in the future (which in that case, it wouldn't be called "Dragon Age", anyway) I don't see how you could avoid having returning characters - especially when some of them wind up as major players in the world by the end of the games.  *shrug*

Each game has been set in a different country and you still have the same lore elements (elf and dwarf culture, Qunari, magic, Templars, wardens, etc...) so it wouldn't take away that feeling for me. It's not a technologically advanced world and travel between countries would be long and difficult and I don't see much reason for the characters to be moving around so drastically. A big part of it for me is that the cameos have IMO had weak excuses behind them. I really see no reason for Varric (for example) to be a companion in DA:I. He's there because he was popular in DA2 and compared to the original characters introduced in DA:I, he gets very little character development. I feel like if I didn't know him from DA2 he would just be that random friendly guy hanging out in the hall. Also, Cassandra had let him go in the end of DA2 but suddenly he's her prisoner again in DA:I because she wanted him to tell the divine what he told her? That's just...ugh. She could have told the story herself. The cameos in DA:I were done a million times better than in DA2 though, I just wish that if they're going to bring characters back, they would have a strong and rational story reason for it. Ex: if the game had been about a war between Orlais and Ferelden then having Alistair or Anora prominently featured would be expected.  

 

I also feel like excessive cameos can often be used as a crutch. They rely on the player's existing attachment to that character and little additional development is required. I'd rather they invest the time and effort to make new characters that are compelling and will get us attached.