100 réponses à ce sujet

[Scerene]

So far I haven't seen anything that required Leliana to have survived the death in the cave. Does her essential role pop up nearer to the end and explain why it's ok for Alistair to have died but not her?

i get the sense that she is a very loved character amongst the writers and devs themselves, and she played a role in DA lore outside of the games. The masked empire which takes place just before DAI, has her has left hand.  She is involved in many events in the books, on behalf of the divine, as her left hand. She has been the left hand since the end of DAO, which is approx 10 years before DAO. Replacing a left hand of the divine would hardly be easy.  She is also likely to have an impact on the continued lore to some degree, though, at this point it seems they are ready to move on from the south, as everything has been tied up into a neat little bow by the end of DAI.

[CronoDragoon]

It's not bad, it's just jarring. It implies a certain lack of care for continuity on BW's side. Leliana's retcon isn't the only retcon in the DA games ether, I just find it odd that people are willing to argue that it isn't a retcon.

 

Well, it's not really. Retroactive continuity is when a previously established fact is changed by future writing. In this case, Inquisition Leliana confirms the events at the Temple, including her death, happened.

[London]

Love Leliana. That aside, authors retcon all the time. It's their right to remedy what they viewed as a mistake.

These things happen in movies, book series, TV shows, comic books, and yes games. Who cares? It's the story they want to tell and it's easier to just roll with it.

[Dabrikishaw]

She's the DA equivalent of Liara from Mass Effect. Likable, but pushed.

[KaiserShep]

If it were up to me, I'd leave past characters in the past and have each new game focus on a completely new story and new companions.

Depends on the character, and how much sense it makes for them to return. Varric, for instance, makes sense to be a companion here, because of his involvement in DA2 and his direct tie to Cassandra. Cullen was also a very good addition, I thought, and his character got a much needed and much welcome growth spurt.

 

I don't want returning companions to be companions for different protagonists all the time, obviously. I don't want any of the Inquisitor's companions to show up to be a follower for whoever we're playing in the north, but it's nice to see a familiar face to kind of keep us grounded in that universe. That said, if we're going far away, it might be time to have an entirely new batch of faces. I suspect that there may be at least one returning character, if the Warden thing is any indication, but who knows.

[CronoDragoon]

It's a retcon. It's an alteration of previous events to make up for plot inconsistencies, which is one definition of a retcon. They added the miraculous resurrection part because they wanted Leliana to have an explanation for her still being alive, but did not have that in mind when they wrote the option to kill her.

 

Based on the wikipedia definitions, it's actually more of an addition than an alteration. There is no contradiction in Leliana's story. There has, however, been an addition.

 

Before: Leliana dies.

After: Leliana dies and is resurrected.

 

The alteration section mentions characters who survive what was seemingly their death, which Leliana did not.

 

This is all if you agree with all of what Wikipedia lists, which I do not. If we are going to count additions as retcons, then we open up a whole host of vague and foggy logic for how to interpret later events.

[CronoDragoon]

So yeah, it's not a retcon by one definition, it's a retcon by another one.

 

Fair enough. This is the first I'm hearing of the addition part, to be frank, and it sounds like a cop-out for people to be angry at things they don't like.

[Questyquesos]

Unless they're going to pull an Elder Scrolls and have every game take place hundreds of years in the future (which in that case, it wouldn't be called "Dragon Age", anyway)

Actually, Skyrim was the only game with a significant time jump. The total gap between Arena and Oblivion was only about 40 years, so about 10 years between each game.

[Darkfighter99]

Yeah, I linked to the wrong definition on wikipedia.

 

You don't have to agree, it's there because it's one of the common definitions of retcons. They don't have to necessarily negate previously established facts - they just have to be a get out of jail free card for a plot point the writers realized screws them up. Whether or not you agree is irrelevant, it fits one of the definitions for a retcon, therefore it is a retcon.

 

Even the dictionary describes addition as one definition of a retcon. Again, you can consider it to not be a retcon for you personally, but it still is. Googling "retcon definition" brings up "(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.".

 

So yeah, it's not a retcon by one definition, it's a retcon by another one. Leliana being alive in DA2 and DA:I when she was killed in DA:O is a plot inconsistency, and the addition of the explanation (miraculous resurrection) for the plot inconsistency is the retcon.

 

 

I think the word you're looking for is "handwave"

[Cette]

I feel like this is somewhat a problem of precedence. This is a studio that has handled this sort of thing overall better in the past this malking it look worse here.

Unless you think considerably more people killed Wrex than Lelianna. Then again imports with Ash's renegade interrupt there may be a big part of the reason she get's "virmired" so often.

[movieguyabw]

Actually, Skyrim was the only game with a significant time jump. The total gap between Arena and Oblivion was only about 40 years, so about 10 years between each game.

 

Morrowind didn't take place a while after Arena/Daggerfall?  0o   Never played the first 2 games, but I was always under the impression they were in Morrowind's distant past.  Huh...  well, I stand corrected then.  XD

[Aren]

Seriously who is the moron who want to kill Leliana in DaO?   

[samb]

Defiling the ashes was a choice no sane Warden would do, killing Lileiana is even more of a dick move.
Back on topic, I always felt that the ashes somehow healed her. Like she really was blessed by the Maker after being killed by HoF. Yet another suffering woman the Maker saved.

[Seracen]

I think they committed to Leliana from what happened in DA2.  Moreover, I think they just didn't want to have to create a new character and provide voice for the character...especially considering how perfect Leliana was for the role.

 

Still, I can see how people who killed her off would find it all jarring.  Myself, I thought the whole "divine resurrection" angle to be amusing and interesting.  Usually the deities of Dragon Age don't take an active hand in the proceedings (well, unless you count the occasional snarky remark from Flemeth).  Heck, even Corypheus' origins play with the mythos of the world's creation (namely the Blight), the foundations of the Tevinter Imperium, and the origin of Elven decline!

 

With all this paradigm shifting, I guess they figured one minor miracle for a single Orlesian Bard wasn't too far afield...

[Balek-Vriege]

I mentioned in another thread that it doesn't really feel like a retcon.  Forced yes, but not a retcon.  There's a couple possibilities or a combination of the above:

 

Did our Warden check her pulse?  We have seen plenty of protagonists come back from what should have been their death bed.  Shot in the end, cut up to ribbons or  just murdered violently in general.  The main/supporting character comes back to life usually without their memory and a mysterious unquenchable sense of vengeance.  Leliana may not have been truly dead in the first place and was partially just lucky.

 

The Temple of Sacred Ashes is laced with lyrium, which probably had something to do with it.

 

The proximity of the ashes and Leliana possibly being "contaminated" by their residue or the ashes themselves led to a miracle as it did for Arl Eamon if he's given a some.  She dies a stone throw away from where the ashes sat for who knows how long.

[KaiserShep]

Defiling the ashes was a choice no sane Warden would do, killing Lileiana is even more of a dick move.

 

Even more so if you remove all of her weapons, forcing her to basically play fisticuffs against your mighty armor.

[Ieldra]

They could have easily created a new character as spymaster rather than contend with a possibly-alive, possibly-dead previous character. The fact that they didn't, when it would be so easy to do so, suggests that her survival isn't a retcon.

Her story in Origins is of a person who believes herself chosen. Surviving apparent death dovetails nicely into that story. Not to mention, her passion for the Maker likely would attract attention from spirits of faith, spirits who were all over that place. Plus, the cave contained so much lyrium that it bestowed healing powers on an urn. There are multiple ways she could have come back.

There are one or two implausible survivals in Dragon Age. But Leliana is not one of them.

LOL, I'd say survival because of those elements is still pretty implausible. It's just not impossible.

 

I don't know why the DA team made her survive. Likely it's because someone had big plans for her, or, as David Gaider said, "sometimes we just don't want to do certain things". In general, that's ok with me to a certain point. The reason why I see it as problematic in this case is that Leliana's death isn't just a "hate crime", but an unavoidable consequence of a legitimate plot decision. I don't think the consequences of such should be nullified. Or could you avoid killing Leliana if you had her with you on the Sacred Ashes mission and poisoned the ashes? I've never done that, so I don't know.

 

I like having Leliana in DAI so I don't mind the outcome, but the way it came about is not optimal.

 

Anyway, we should really stop beating this dead horse.

[movieguyabw]

Or could you avoid killing Leliana if you had her with you on the Sacred Ashes mission and poisoned the ashes? I've never done that, so I don't know.

 

 

 

Yes.  You can.  If she's hardened, and you have a high intimidation you can talk her out of fighting you.

[Madrict]

Zevran should have been spymaster and a LI

[Antergaton]

I am in the line of this thinking. This isn't our world or our story. This is David Gaider's.

 

Don't you find it strange that even in DA:O we can practically kill anyone and every one of the main cast? You can kill Leliana, Zevran and even Alistair, leave Sten trapped, Sten and Alistair can both leave your service, Wynne can die in Broken Circle. Only Morrigan doesn't 'die' but she does leave (even if it is at the end).

 

In DA2 there are lots of options to kill characters, let other die or get rid of them (even if they come back anyway, stupid Anders).

 

Yet in DA:I... yeah I got nothing. At the end of the game, if I didn't recruite people, fair enough but if I did and I did things they didn't like, they didn't leave just didn't talk to me much. There should have been options for Solas getting angry at you needlessly killing spirits or Iron Bull (if you side with the Qun) being ordered to stop helping based on your actions or something. Anything to make it feel like these characters are as expendable like previous games.

 

Alas, they are not because this is not our world, this is David Gaider's and he'll keep those characters alive to use them in the future, without our say so.

[Gill Kaiser]

Leliana's background is perfect for the role, though. Ex-spy who has to juggle her faith and her skill at espionage and murder? Old acquaintance of Divine Justinia since before she came to the Sunburst Throne? It'd have been silly if it were anyone else.

[Zombie_Alexis]

I think that if you killed Leliana in DAO she should have a boost in her bid for Divine, what with the miracle of her resurrection and all. I also wish you could pick someone else to be your Spymaster if she does become the Divine, Varric and Briala being two very good choices.

[Lebanese Dude]

You never truly killed her. How is it so hard to understand?

I must have missed the part where you cremate her or something.

[Draining Dragon]

There was absolutely no reason to bring back Leliana, but Bioware wants her to be the new Liara.