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Do SJW themes increase sales?


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#126
Jorji Costava

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Why would would I care about whatever bizarre political views the reviewer has? That's not going to help me determine if the game is worth buying.

 

Two questionable assumptions here: First, there seems to be the assumption that a review is only worth writing if it addresses aspects of a game that you, specifically, would care about. That sounds pretty dubious to me. No one's forcing you to base your decisions as a consumer on the content of such reviews. If you like, you can even rant and rave about how stupid such reviews are to your heart's content. What I argued above is this: The idea that it's somehow unethical to even write such reviews in the first place, on the grounds that they're insufficiently 'objective,' is bogus.

 

The second questionable assumption is that reviews exist for the sole purpose of functioning as buy/don't buy guides. Games aren't just consumer products; they're pieces of culture, and reviewers should have the freedom to address them as such (unless you agree after all with Roger Ebert that games are not and never will be art). None of the most well-known film critics (A.O. Scott, Pauline Kael, Ebert himself, etc.) ever constructed their reviews purely or even mostly as consumer guides, so I don't see why there should be so much more pressure on game writers to do so.

 

EDIT: Fixed grammar


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#127
Guest_E-Ro_*

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Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't skinhead mean neo nazi? Or is it just a term for bald people?

As for my favorite protagonists, I absolutely love Geralt from the witcher, and I adore Stannis Baratheon from asoiaf. Both of those guys happen to be white.

#128
KingTony

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Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't skinhead mean neo nazi? Or is it just a term for bald people?


Always meant neo Nazi to me.

#129
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Always meant neo Nazi to me.

Yeah, so I am confused at the people talking about games with skinhead protagonists, and even more confused at the idea that everyone wishes they could be one.

#130
Seraphim24

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The second questionable assumption is that reviews exist for the sole purpose of functioning as buy/don't buy guides. Games aren't just consumer products; they're pieces of culture, and reviewers should have the freedom to address them as such (unless you agree after all with Roger Ebert that games are not and never will be art). None of the most well-known film critics (A.O. Scott, Pauline Kael, Ebert himself, etc.) ever constructed their reviews purely or even mostly as consumer guides, so I don't see why there should be so much more pressure on game writers to do so.

 

EDIT: Fixed grammar

 

One thing here though... is that it is probably precisely because those famous film critics were so heedless of consumer opinions that they failed to recognize the artistic value inherent in other forms such as video games.

 

There is no reason to believe that the same won't occur here, as people increasingly metastasize the video game form some other form (perhaps just slightly altered) will displace it, and those same critics will look as stale and regressive as the film critics that cam before them.


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#131
Inquisitor Recon

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Two questionable assumptions here: First, there seems to be the assumption that a review is only worth writing if it addresses aspects of a game that you, specifically, would care about. That sounds pretty dubious to me. No one's forcing you to base your decisions as a consumer on the content of such reviews. If you like, you can even rant and rave about how stupid such reviews are to your heart's content. What I argued above is this: The idea that it's somehow unethical to even write such reviews in the first place, on the grounds that they're insufficiently 'objective,' is bogus.

 

The second questionable assumption is that reviews exist for the sole purpose of function as buy/don't buy guides. Games aren't just consumer products; they're pieces of culture, and reviewers should have the freedom to address them as such (unless you agree after all with Roger Ebert that games are not and never will be art). None of the most well-known film critics (A.O. Scott, Pauline Kael, Ebert himself, etc.) ever constructed their reviews purely or even mostly as consumer guides, so I don't see why there should be so much more pressure on game writers to do so.

 

These websites exist as a commercial entities built around reviewing products. When people are getting paid to review a product I don't want or expect their personal views of the product from a cultural/societal/political standpoint, I expect as much of an objective review as possible.

 

If I was looking for discussion about games on an artistic or cultural level I certainly wouldn't look for it from sources who lean so far into SJW craziness territory. That Shadow of Mordor kissing/killing nonsense being a good example of what not to take seriously.



#132
Degenerate Rakia Time

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Always meant neo Nazi to me.

 

Yeah, so I am confused at the people talking about games with skinhead protagonists, and even more confused at the idea that everyone wishes they could be one.

for me it means someone bald or with very short hair :P



#133
SlottsMachine

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http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/skinhead



#134
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The second questionable assumption is that reviews exist for the sole purpose of functioning as buy/don't buy guides. Games aren't just consumer products; they're pieces of culture, and reviewers should have the freedom to address them as such (unless you agree after all with Roger Ebert that games are not and never will be art). None of the most well-known film critics (A.O. Scott, Pauline Kael, Ebert himself, etc.) ever constructed their reviews purely or even mostly as consumer guides, so I don't see why there should be so much more pressure on game writers to do so.

 

EDIT: Fixed grammar

 

 

You have to look at this from full duplex view.  On one hand reviewers act as a good source of telling the public about a new product out. From a AAA title this would be very negligible as the AAA title has probably spent most of their money on some advertising budget. However, there is a certain type of movement which in my opinion is similar to the auteur theory of film. This is the indie movement and it is probably the one which can benefit most from a video game review. At one part of this network, the developer is relying on these publications to get the world out since they do not have that much money to spend on an advertising budget, at the other end the consumer does not know much about this product and could get an impression about it from this review.

 

Total biscuit has influenced a lot of purchases for indie titles. In return has also got scorn for reviewing a game which is in his opinion bad. The indie studio knows that for a product of such scale, any amount of media coverage they get can be helpful or completely disastrous to their product.



#135
TheChris92

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Two questionable assumptions here: First, there seems to be the assumption that a review is only worth writing if it addresses aspects of a game that you, specifically, would care about. That sounds pretty dubious to me. No one's forcing you to base your decisions as a consumer on the content of such reviews. If you like, you can even rant and rave about how stupid such reviews are to your heart's content. What I argued above is this: The idea that it's somehow unethical to even write such reviews in the first place, on the grounds that they're insufficiently 'objective,' is bogus.
 
The second questionable assumption is that reviews exist for the sole purpose of functioning as buy/don't buy guides. Games aren't just consumer products; they're pieces of culture, and reviewers should have the freedom to address them as such (unless you agree after all with Roger Ebert that games are not and never will be art). None of the most well-known film critics (A.O. Scott, Pauline Kael, Ebert himself, etc.) ever constructed their reviews purely or even mostly as consumer guides, so I don't see why there should be so much more pressure on game writers to do so.
 
EDIT: Fixed grammar

This post actually made me realize something interesting -- I regularly visit my local film sites, like Ekkofilm or Filmz.dk, for reviews and recommendations for films that have slipped the radar (international or not), and rarely do I find comments that are to busy with criticizing the reviewer's thoughts as opposed to discussing their own, and compare notes.
In regards to gaming, one would rarely not find comments, whether it be on Youtube or IGN, that aren't solely dedicated to tell someone how much their opinion is wrong, or nothing like their own, in regards to say something personal as "Top 10" or "Reviews". It beckons the question as to whether or not we actually enjoy the game as much as we think we do? Like you said, it's worth remembering that all reviews are entirely based around one individuals thoughts, so if one personally enjoys a game, then an opposing opinion shouldn't really get to you. Unless of course there's a despicable little niggling doubt in the back of your mind, that maybe you're not having as much fun as you've convinced yourself you're having, which doesn't go away no matter how many times you try to slap it down with the wet flannel of weak excuses

It also made me remember a post someone else posted in this thread earlier, in regards to Gone Home not being a game, which is of course untrue. It's no less a game, than anything by Telltale or LucasArts adventure games of the 90s. It's an interactive experience, that requires feedback from the player in order to progress, thus it is ultimately still valid as a game.

Anyway, I enjoyed what you've added here. Thanks :)
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#136
TheChris92

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These websites exist as a commercial entities built around reviewing products. When people are getting paid to review a product I don't want or expect their personal views of the product from a cultural/societal/political standpoint, I expect as much of an objective review as possible.
 
If I was looking for discussion about games on an artistic or cultural level I certainly wouldn't look for it from sources who lean so far into SJW craziness territory. That Shadow of Mordor kissing/killing nonsense being a good example of what not to take seriously.

I think you proved his point right there.
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#137
Cainhurst Crow

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This post actually made me realize something interesting -- I regularly visit my local film sites, like Ekkofilm or Filmz.dk, for reviews and recommendations for films that have slipped the radar (international or not), and rarely do I find comments that are to busy with criticizing the reviewer's thoughts as opposed to discussing their own, and compare notes.
In regards to gaming, one would rarely not find comments, whether it be on Youtube or IGN, that aren't solely dedicated to tell someone how much their opinion is wrong, or nothing like their own, in regards to say something personal as "Top 10" or "Reviews". It beckons the question as to whether or not we actually enjoy the game as much as we think we do? Like you said, it's worth remembering that all reviews are entirely based around one individuals thoughts, so if one personally enjoys a game, then an opposing opinion shouldn't really get to you. Unless of course there's a despicable little niggling doubt in the back of your mind, that maybe you're not having as much fun as you've convinced yourself you're having, which doesn't go away no matter how many times you try to slap it down with the wet flannel of weak excuses

It also made me remember a post someone else posted in this thread earlier, in regards to Gone Home not being a game, which is of course untrue. It's no less a game, than anything by Telltale or LucasArts adventure games of the 90s. It's an interactive experience, that requires feedback from the player in order to progress, thus it is ultimately still valid as a game.

Anyway, I enjoyed what've added here. Thanks :)

 

Nah, its more likely just more normal people visit game review sites then they do film review sites. Similar to how more normal people go to rotten tomatoes and care about the on the radar films then the ones who want films that specifically fall under the radar of mainstream audiences and most of the mainstreams fringe.

 

People are defensive, and naturally confrontational for things they see as being obvious and non-important issues. Like to them, saying you don't like this game is like coming to the conclusion that the sky is green, or that sea water isn't salty. Because to them, they assume its inherently obvious to anyone who played this game, that the experience would be the same all around, and any deviation of that is a deviation from normal human behavior.

 

It's all silly of course, but no less silly then assuming that everyone who argues about something secretly loath the thing they are defending, and in some strange psychological cage, are forced to defend it to preserve some sort of false truth they've built around themselves.

 

Also, there's a big scare in gaming that a new form of censorship board, similar to the Comics Code Authority or other such private instituted, grass roots movement, is going to happen that targets games on a blacklist. And another big scare that there's a secret mental coercion going on with gaming programing young people to act aggressively or violently towards minorities or women or lgbt through subliminal cultural messages. Sounds conspiracy like but there are more then enough instances of people trying to start boycotts of products or game producers over political ideology and spewing of hate and ignorance from everyone wadding into the issue that anyone with a megaphone giving voice becomes a target for this new paranoia.

 

So yeah...we got that growing pain going on, just like the film industry had.


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#138
Seraphim24

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So yeah...we got that growing pain going on, just like the film industry had.

 

I still think this is the wrong model, video games probably partly existed as a consequence of whatever limitations and restrictions people placed on films. Do the same thing to video games, and you just get people moving onto the next thing.



#139
SlottsMachine

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Polygon has got some gems.

 

http://www.polygon.c...-kissing-design

 

I myself wanted to kiss all the Uruks (make love not war), much to my horror the first time I tried to.  


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#140
TheChris92

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Nah, its more likely just more normal people visit game review sites then they do film review sites. Similar to how more normal people go to rotten tomatoes and care about the on the radar films then the ones who want films that specifically fall under the radar of mainstream audiences and most of the mainstreams fringe.
 
People are defensive, and naturally confrontational for things they see as being obvious and non-important issues. Like to them, saying you don't like this game is like coming to the conclusion that the sky is green, or that sea water isn't salty. Because to them, they assume its inherently obvious to anyone who played this game, that the experience would be the same all around, and any deviation of that is a deviation from normal human behavior.

It would be presumptuous to think that people who refuse to be confrontational aren't normal.. if a bit weird to me. I do, however,think you have a point in there -- Ultimately, there's something that games and films share. It's the ability to provide a different message for everyone in its audience. Each individual will come out of the cinema, with a different viewpoint. Ultimately, this is also related to what osborn talked about. People find certain things about film or games to be noteworthy of praise or criticism, some people don't particularly care about the technical stuff, some do, vice versa. Neither are any less relevant over the other as long as it matters to you, personally, and how you felt.
 
 

It's all silly of course, but no less silly then assuming that everyone who argues about something secretly loath the thing they are defending, and in some strange psychological cage, are forced to defend it to preserve some sort of false truth they've built around themselves.


That was more or less a cheeky statement.. In related matter -- I'd argue that there are some people, who's had trouble trying to explain why they like a certain game so much, or why they 'did like it' so much, partially due to the reverse effects of nostalgia, so the concept isn't unheard of either way. Anyway, it's not entirely what I said though. It was in regards to whether people actually like the respective game enough to let opposing opinions get to them, which isn't unheard of either. You can defend it without being confrontational/take offense or let it become personal.

#141
DEUGH Man

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Anders was a SJW. Sera and Dorian just like to party. #TeamSND #PartytimeExcellent
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#142
Killdren88

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Anders was a SJW. Sera and Dorian just like to party. #TeamSND #PartytimeExcellent

 

If Tumblr existed in Thedas I can see Anders's blog already #Oppression #AllMages


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#143
Vroom Vroom

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If Tumblr existed in Thedas I can see Anders's blog already #Oppression #AllMages

Don't forget #Misunderstood  #Justice


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#144
Cainhurst Crow

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In an ideal world, fiction would be regarded as fiction, no one would declare it trying to subvert society or champion a new revolution, and people would be able to enjoy the stories and characters within a piece of work, and maybe take from it some life lessons without a big fuss over whether it is, or isn't, meeting some externally placed social checklist first.

 

We don't live in an ideal world, and so the content of this interactive story is torn apart by 2 camps. The first camp, doesn't want ideas or notions being inside a work that challenges the status quo or makes people question how things have always been. The second camp, doesn't want ideas or notions being inside a work that doesn't challenge the status quo or makes people not ask questions on how things have always been. Both sides are incredibly intolerant of any opinion that isn't goosestepped in line with their own, and have no problem letting the whole world know how awful a story is for not catering to their political ideology.

 

This is why threads like this, and ideas like this, crop up on both sides. Whether a story is too conservative or too liberal, too oppressively pro-system or too social justice heavy. Because 5% of the viewers don't like change, and 5% of the viewers want everything changed, and the 90% of other viewers are left in the middle, hoping whatever gets made has a good story, good characters, and a decent enough presentation.

 

Nobody but those heavily invested in ideological grandstanding seem to care whether a character is male or female, straight or gay or bi or any combination that make up the lgbt community. People don't care what ethnicity the character is either, because most time it doesn't really matter in face of the story. People care about having characters they like and can relate to, stories that engage in intrigue them, and a plot that can hold their interest throughout the telling. A game becomes too social justicy if it puts certain elements such as a characters gender or race before the other elements above, or when those talking about the game focus too heavily on those aspects and not the story, plot, or characters.

 

I like to use the show Legend of Korra as an example of this because it highlights where peoples values actually are, and its a perfect example, being the sequel to the show and having the odd quark of reversing the gender roles of the main 4 characters of team avatar, with the previous formula of 2 girl benders, 1 non-bender guy, and a male avatar, becoming 2 bender guys, 1 non-bender girl, and a female avatar. People criticized the first 2 seasons of Korra due to a lack of likeable characters, a somewhat weak plot, and a odd way of presenting a story, but very few if anyone criticized korra for being a girl. In fact, as the series went on, the character who seemed to draw the most fan criticism wasn't korra or any of the female characters, but the 2 male leads Bolin and Mako, the former for being semi-stuck as comedic relief and the other for not being written as well as they could. As season 3 and 4 came and went, people praised it because it managed to tighten its story, get better at writing its characters as well as introducing new ones, and for having a nice pacing to its plots.

 

Overall, it shows that most people really only care about having characters they can enjoy, a story that can entertain them, and a plot pacing and presentation that can keep them hooked and engaged.

 

Does bioware do this? Yes. Yes they do. They allow you room for your personal politics but never let it detract from characters or the story, and they don't derail the plot with it either.

 

I think the bigger question here shouldn't be if having SJW themes increases sales, but rather why so many reviewers are starting to inject their personal political views and biases into the medium where most people don't care about that stuff.


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#145
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If Tumblr existed in Thedas I can see Anders's blog already #Oppression #AllMages


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#146
Inquisitor Recon

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"Posting an image of a Templar without a trigger warning? You are scum and deserve to die."


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#147
X Equestris

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Yeah, so I am confused at the people talking about games with skinhead protagonists, and even more confused at the idea that everyone wishes they could be one.


Yeah, in the US, I've only ever heard it used to refer to Neo-Nazis and their ilk.

#148
Fast Jimmy

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Yeah, in the US, I've only ever heard it used to refer to Neo-Nazis and their ilk.


The only character I can think of that meets the bearded and bald stereotype is Kratos. But that's just one guy... unless we are talking about guys with short hair and stubble?


Neither of those things are beards or "skinheads," racist implications notwithstanding.

#149
DEUGH Man

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Sheploo was a skinhead? My perception on life has changed completely. It's all been a liiiiie!



#150
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I think Jim Sterling said it best in one of those videos of his -- The term "SJW" has becoming utterly meaningless, it's been derived down to nothing more than a label, whom any individual will mark on anyone they don't agree with.
 
People seem to think that the concept of appealing to a new crowd, ultimately means they'll forget about the old one, which isn't true. The idea is trying to appeal to the new and old ones alike -- Finding a way to attract new players, not catering, but appealing, which I don't see anything inherently wrong with.

 
Sterling is completely wrong. The term has description just like any other, it's just being used incorrectly.
 
By that same token, I could claim that "homophobe" is utterly meaningless. but it isn't, it's just that roughly 100.01% of the people who use that word don't know what it means.

There's no such thing as a product that caters to everyone and the SJWs have time and time again proven that they're against the existence of games that don't fit their ideological bent like Hatred, GTA, Bayonetta, Duke Nukem,etc.

 
While I agree with your point, i don't believe Hatred belongs in that group. Hatred was specifically created to oppose political correctness and all that jazz. it brought the "fight" to THEM, not the other way around.
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