230 réponses à ce sujet

[N7 Shadow 90]

I mean as in having less sexualised female characters, as an example. Maybe having same-sex relationships be included, and that there's no attitudes present to say that it's any different from a different-sex relationship. Maybe having transgender characters without having any characters perceive it as some kind of strange entity.

 

Not entirely sure how to answer your question. Sorry.

[Seraphim24]

And I don't really see your statement about content limitations either--they may not be AAA, but there are plenty of AA games that break the mold. Space sims by Deep Silver. Racing games, arcade and simulation, by everyone from EA to Codemasters to unknown brands. Heck, EA even has a hugely, hugely popular series based around what could broadly be termed "life simulation." I don't think it's as restricted as you say.

 

Well I also said "I'm not nearly so pessimistic" because I'm not really at all, there were like 350k mobile games or something released in the last year, that's insane. And yes I've also "played" things like Second Life and other things and wondered why they weren't more popular because of how they broke certain conventions but of course not always are they interesting because of it.

[DEUGH Man]

I mean as in having less sexualised female characters, as an example. Maybe having same-sex relationships be included, and that there's no attitudes present to say that it's any different from a different-sex relationship. Maybe having transgender characters without having any characters perceive it as some kind of strange entity.

 

Not entirely sure how to answer your question. Sorry.

 

That's primarily why I dislike the things "SJWs" fight for. It's like you have to have x amount of a certain type of character in a game, otherwise you are backwards. It doesn't matter if the entire writing staff is straight and comfortable in their own body, so they therefore can't write from certain perspectives, and when they are forced to write from certain perspectives, it comes across as cheesy and cliche, which nobody likes, which starts the whole process over of people wanting certain types of characters in games, and people getting pissed because there are randomly thrown in characters in the game.

 

*takes deep breath*

 

I just want things done right and naturally.

[leighzard]

That's primarily why I dislike the things "SJWs" fight for. It's like you have to have x amount of a certain type of character in a game, otherwise you are backwards. It doesn't matter if the entire writing staff is straight and comfortable in their own body, so they therefore can't write from certain perspectives, and when they are forced to write from certain perspectives, it comes across as cheesy and cliche, which nobody likes, which starts the whole process over of people wanting certain types of characters in games, and people getting pissed because there are randomly thrown in characters in the game.

 

*takes deep breath*

 

I just want things done right and naturally.

 

I'd argue that it's bad writing, not the content of the writing itself.  As a writer you should be able to consider and take different perspectives.  If you can't do it in a way that isn't cheesy and cliched, do some research, connect to similar feelings you've had in another situation, or get the assignment to someone else who can. 

 

I also think that any company with such a homogenous crew of employees that they can't find one person who isn't a straight, white male should consider diversifying their hiring.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

*snip*

 

Charming.

[DEUGH Man]

I'd argue that it's bad writing, not the content of the writing itself.  As a writer you should be able to consider and take different perspectives.  If you can't do it in a way that isn't cheesy and cliched, do some research, connect to similar feelings you've had in another situation, or get the assignment to someone else who can. 

 

I also think that any company with such a homogenous crew of employees that they can't find one person who isn't a straight, white male should consider diversifying their hiring.

 

So you jump from straight people who are comfortable in their own bodies to straight white males?

 

I can tell how this discussion is going to be, so I'm not going to have it.

[leighzard]

So you jump from straight people who are comfortable in their own bodies to straight white males?

 

I can tell how this discussion is going to be, so I'm not going to have it.

 

You're right.  I'm sorry.  I'm exhausted from a series of early mornings and a car breakdown today.

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I misread your post and I apologize. 

 

You might have tried pointing that out a little bit more politely, though.  It's not like I called you an idiot for your opinion, I merely stated my own.

 

I still support the point that diversity is an asset to any company, game developer or other, and it something hiring should attempt to achieve.  And I don't think you implied otherwise.  Sometimes it's hard to hire the people you need most.

[DEUGH Man]

You're right.  I'm sorry.  I'm exhausted from a series of early mornings and a car breakdown today.

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I misread your post and I apologize. 

 

You might have tried pointing that out a little bit more politely, though.  It's not like I called you an idiot for your opinion, I merely stated my own.

 

I still support the point that diversity is an asset to any company, game developer or other, and it something hiring should attempt to achieve.  And I don't think you implied otherwise.  Sometimes it's hard to hire the people you need most.

 

Sorry about that, it's just when you spend as much time in college as I have, it can be tiring to have your arguments twisted away from their original intent. I agree that it would be good to have a diverse team of writers, but as you said, just finding quality writers is difficult in general, much less a specific type of a good writer. I just feel like expectations for a writing team should be realistic once the writers are assembled, and their talents are acknowledged and used. I don't like the idea of pandering for pandering's sake. I want an actual message to be said, and I want it delivered well. I don't think writing diverse characters and having quality writing are mutually exclusive, I just feel like due preparation and realistic expectations need to be present.

[DEUGH Man]

I'm mostly upset there aren't more games with badass chicken protagonists tbh.

 

I want this:

 

[Nattfare]

So it's just another Postal.

[SlottsMachine]

I'd argue that it's bad writing, not the content of the writing itself.  As a writer you should be able to consider and take different perspectives.  If you can't do it in a way that isn't cheesy and cliched, do some research, connect to similar feelings you've had in another situation, or get the assignment to someone else who can. 

 

I also think that any company with such a homogenous crew of employees that they can't find one person who isn't a straight, white male should consider diversifying their hiring.

 

The thing is for most games quality writing is not exactly a design goal. And I think that's what needs to change first and foremost. If that happens a lot of these issues about inclusion and all that jazz people are having will take care of themselves in my opinion.

[SlottsMachine]

It should be though, obviously not there main goal but more effort needs to be put into it. I just finished Shadow of Mordor (a really good game, loved the nemesis system), but there where a couple missions towards the end of the game that were cringe worthy from a writer standpoint (not that the rest of the game was all that great either in that respect). 

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

The thing is for most games quality writing is not exactly a design goal. And I think that's what needs to change first and foremost. If that happens a lot of these issues about inclusion and all that jazz people are having will take care of themselves in my opinion.

 

You would hope so. But a lot of the push for "inclusivity" in games are coming from people who just aren't that interested in games as games. I think on these forums that's not really the case since everyone has at least a passing interest in BioWare, but on other parts of the internet, many people pushing "equality" are clearly more interested in personal politics and their own bank accounts than gaming. They see their entertainment as extensions of themselves, so anything that challenges their worldview, challenges them on a personal level. And they don't like it. As long as there's a GTA selling gazillions of copies, then there's plenty enough to rail about. It doesn't matter if there are (plenty of) games out there that you can play and enjoy, that fact that there still are other games out there is cause enough to keep complaining.

 

How do we know this?

 

 

Besides, all the talk about "inclusivity" focuses on what's wrong with games currently, never acknowledging when games do get it right, or promoting the ones that do well. Games that flaunt a woman's agency, with a female main character who's motivations are feminine in nature are still nitpicked to death. Even worse, there's a disturbing lack of context taken into account when these judgements are made. And Japanese developers, who tend to have fantastical and over the top art, receive quasi racist commentary because a sexualised woman is sexism, yet sexualising men in the same breath still means it's sexism against women.

 

See: Bayonetta, Dragon's Crown

 

Japan has a very different outlook on sexuality than the West. It's a conservative society but very open about the human body. There's a national penis festival for God's sake, and there's no social stigma with mixed bathing at public baths. Yet people want to hold them to America-centric standards on sexuality.

 

That's the problem with Critical Theory (which is what Anita does and what Anita does, the others follow) - it intentionally ignores context because it's deconstruction for the purposes of destruction.

 

Aside from a token gesture that she liked Jade from Beyond Good and Evil, when was the last time Anita actually talked a game up?

 

Where is the feminist praise and analysis of games like:

 

Perfect Dark

NOLF

Heroine Quest

MIrror's Edge

Dreamfall/TLJ

Alien: Isolation

Alice: Madness Returns

Alone in the Dark

Metroid

Giana Sisters

Eternal Darkness

Okami

Resident Evil

 

And so on and so forth. Let alone games where you can create your own character (like BioWare games). But wait, BioWare is still 'problematic' too because Origins encourages rape culture in the City Elf Origin. 

 

I like diversity in games. Diversity of race, diversity of gender, diversity of sexuality. Most of all, I like diversity of thought, whether we talk on an industry level, a developer level or within the confines of a single game. It leads to better games IMO. Unfortunately, there only seems to be one acceptable train of thought right now in the gaming industry, one being enforced by a media willing to lie, blacklist and beat you down if you don't agree with it.

 

Like looking at Hatred, I think Hatred is edgelord central and I'm not interested in playing it at all. But I don't see why that means there has to be a concerted effort from journalists and SJWs to have it removed from Greenlight.

 

In any case, I think a lot of "lazy" writing in games can be pinned down to the fact that writers are staffed at companies with a constant line of production. Hats is right about writing being mostly an afterthought. In other industries, writers are freelance and approach studios with ideas. Studios then take projects on if they feel that it's worth the risk. Projects are created or rejected based on whether scripts or novel excerpts are worth the investment. That difference, and the image of game writing outside the gaming industry as being a trash tier occupation are the primary barriers involved. That's not to say great stories can't happen in gaming, because it can and has many times over.

 

But until the issue of writer staffing (and how writers are hired in the industry) is fundamentally changed, we are probably hoping for a level of sophistication from an industry that is not particularly well suited for it. That's why I put so much emphasis on gameplay and the "synergy" between game mechanics and narrative elements, because that is probably how you are going to get the most out of your stories in games.

 

SS2 is a very good example of that.

[Neoleviathan]

Nah I think Okami would be dismissed for the boob jokes & damsels. But who knows, I love that game, maybe it could win them over.
I think Alice would be the if-iest. Some feminists can get pretty freakin pissed over characters having mental illness or signs of it no matter the intent of the writer or what the story involved. I haven't played enough of those games to know if Alice was crazy or if there really was some magic.

[Seboist]

A lot of these SJW wankers are not only not part of the audience for these games but don't know a damn thing about them either.

 

 

 

Their butthurt is over this character from Metal Gear Solid V: http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Quiet

[Jorji Costava]

Where is the feminist praise and analysis of games like:

 

*snip*

 

With a few routine Google searches, I was actually able to find quite a few of these (no, I didn't look all or even most of them up; too lazy). Here's a positive review of Heroine's Quest over at the MarySue, a website that has as its explicit agenda making "geekdom safe and open for women." Over at Polygon, we get a highly positive discussion of the protagonist of Alien: Isolation from a feminist perspective. Feministe has a pretty positive and extensive discussion of Faith, the protagonist of Mirror's Edge. The last one I found comes from Leigh Alexander (author of the hated "Gamers Are Over" article): Turns out she actually likes Bayonetta.

 

As it turns out, feminism is not one monolithic movement whose adherents all agree on every single thing under the sun; they actually disagree with each other about all sorts of things, hence the feminist sex wars of the late 1980's, the split between those who describe themselves as sex-positive feminists and those who don't, etc. So I often find it frustrating when Anita Sarkeesian is painted as the sole avatar of the entire movement.

[AutumnWitch]

 

 

With a few routine Google searches, I was actually able to find quite a few of these (no, I didn't look all or even most of them up; too lazy). Here's a positive review of Heroine's Quest over at the MarySue, a website that has as its explicit agenda making "geekdom safe and open for women." Over at Polygon, we get a highly positive discussion of the protagonist of Alien: Isolation from a feminist perspective. Feministe has a pretty positive and extensive discussion of Faith, the protagonist of Mirror's Edge. The last one I found comes from Leigh Alexander (author of the hated "Gamers Are Over" article): Turns out she actually likes Bayonetta.

 

As it turns out, feminism is not one monolithic movement whose adherents all agree on every single thing under the sun; they actually disagree with each other about all sorts of things, hence the feminist sex wars of the late 1980's, the split between those who describe themselves as sex-positive feminists and those who don't, etc. So I often find it frustrating when Anita Sarkeesian is painted as the sole avatar of the entire movement.

 

 

 

well said.

[Killdren88]

I want this:

 

 

Freiza did it.

[Dermain]

Still waiting to see a game directly catered at me like the SJWs say is always happening.

 

So am I, but that may be because I have no interest in those types of games.

 

Of course, this also may have something to do with the word "cater" anyways. 

 

ca·ter verb \ˈkā-tər\

: to provide food and drinks at a party, meeting, etc., especially as a job

1:  to provide a supply of food

2:  to supply what is required or desired <catering to middle-class tastes>

 

I suppose that would be the definition that is used by most people. Obviously, developers would not be providing this content if there weren't people who wanted it, but does that mean that the game is only targeted at that group of people? Couldn't there be more things that cater to different people at the same time? 

 

So what if X game "caters" to more people. So what if games didn't "cater" to Y people before but they do now.

 

Then again, I find fault with anyone that claims Z game sold well because it catered to group A, B, C, D... etc. 

 

Couldn't the game have been popular simply because it was fun, and not because of the "catering" going on.

 

On a side note, I now want video game companies to give me food with their video games...they are catering companies after all... 

 

 

These websites exist as a commercial entities built around reviewing products. When people are getting paid to review a product I don't want or expect their personal views of the product from a cultural/societal/political standpoint, I expect as much of an objective review as possible.

 

If I was looking for discussion about games on an artistic or cultural level I certainly wouldn't look for it from sources who lean so far into SJW craziness territory. That Shadow of Mordor kissing/killing nonsense being a good example of what not to take seriously.

 

Well, then I expect you're going to continue be disappointed. Reviews have ALWAYS included personal/societal/cultural views, and they will continue to do so. I'm sure that someone more familiar with the film industry can point out films that were reviewed poorly at the time they were released, but are now held as "masterpieces" simply because views change. 

 

Until we start getting robots to review products, reviews will remain entirely subjective.

 

Although, since the robots would be reviewing products based on their programming even their reviews would be subjective.

 

 

Nah, its more likely just more normal people visit game review sites then they do film review sites. Similar to how more normal people go to rotten tomatoes and care about the on the radar films then the ones who want films that specifically fall under the radar of mainstream audiences and most of the mainstreams fringe.

 

People are defensive, and naturally confrontational for things they see as being obvious and non-important issues. Like to them, saying you don't like this game is like coming to the conclusion that the sky is green, or that sea water isn't salty. Because to them, they assume its inherently obvious to anyone who played this game, that the experience would be the same all around, and any deviation of that is a deviation from normal human behavior.

 

It's all silly of course, but no less silly then assuming that everyone who argues about something secretly loath the thing they are defending, and in some strange psychological cage, are forced to defend it to preserve some sort of false truth they've built around themselves.

 

Also, there's a big scare in gaming that a new form of censorship board, similar to the Comics Code Authority or other such private instituted, grass roots movement, is going to happen that targets games on a blacklist. And another big scare that there's a secret mental coercion going on with gaming programing young people to act aggressively or violently towards minorities or women or lgbt through subliminal cultural messages. Sounds conspiracy like but there are more then enough instances of people trying to start boycotts of products or game producers over political ideology and spewing of hate and ignorance from everyone wadding into the issue that anyone with a megaphone giving voice becomes a target for this new paranoia.

 

So yeah...we got that growing pain going on, just like the film industry had.

 

First they went after television and managed to get that "censored" to lower crime. When that didn't work  they went after comic books again to lower crime. Then they went after the EVIL VILE rock'n'roll music that was corrupting Western culture, and kind of failed...sort of...I believe such campaigns have started focusing more on rap now...

 

Which then led to an overturning of the Comic's Code Authority, as well as more liberal (in respect to prior programming) television programs. Now they seem to be waging a war on video games, but their message is constantly changing. 

 

I'm sure they'll be another controversy in about 10 years (if not less).

[FaWa]

If Im expected to stare at half naked chicks all day meanwhile every dude looks like a potato (Usually clothed), I will not purchase. It's been 2 years since Ive bought a game that required me to play as an ugly dude.

 

I express this with my wallet I guess. I dont care about any of the sjw bullshit because Im a guy. I care about straight guys getting to blow stuff up and look at some ass at the same time while I cant. Sexualize neither or both? Fine, dont care. Sexualize girls and have ugly guys running everywhere Fawa doesnt buy.