341 réponses à ce sujet

[loralius]

Down with the man!

 

The Qun can make sweet love to a broodmother!

[ShadowWeaver2012]

Like everything else in the game, it comes down to how *you* specifically play.

 

I play with the threat that Cory could end the world as we know it.

The Inquisitor and his/her direct team are the ONLY ones that can stop Cory.

 

So the adage "Needs of the many..." applies but only so far. My Quizzy chose to have Bull as part of my team, and as his boss, it is imperative that he is 100% there for her to support her to do what she needs to do.

 

Maybe for other people, he's not important. Maybe other people's Inquisitors are balls-out strategy and logistics. And that's fine.

 

But to me, all the team can really do to help the Inquisitor directly is to add muscle and buck up the Inquisitor's morale, or at least not detract from it. Because the fate of the world ultimately falls on the Inquisitor.

 

The way she sees it, the needs of the one DOES out-weigh the needs of the few.

 

My Inquisitor is thrust upon this situation and she's going to need her wits and her friends, such as they are. In accepting Bull's help, she essentially accepted The Chargers right along with him. For him to lose them would be for him to lose his family due to a fall-through in plans. That wasn't going to happen under her watch. Not because she is romancing him. She's not.

 

My Inquisitor is not be a brilliant leader, not a masterful strategist. My Inquisitor never asked to be a leader in the first place. Never asked to get that Mark.

Maybe the world was going to be saved, maybe it wasn't. Maybe a run-of-the-mill person could make those callous logicstical decisions, but if the world were truly in peril, my Inquisitor- the ordinary person forced into an extraordinary situation- would chose to die with friends and be wrong versus die alone and be right.

[PocketDragon]

From an RG perspective I think it depends.  We see both reasonable and extreme examples of elves, mages and templars, but Bull is our one example of the "reasonable" Qunari, and if you've had the conversation with him about what would happen if the Qun invaded (where he shares that the mages would all be killed and the snarky characters like Varric and Sera would be drugged), I think you probably would see them differently, since even the more neutral members of the Qun expect extreme results.

 

Similarly, I think a Vashoth inquisitor (especially if they're a mage), would be in a unique position to be especially suspicious of the Qunari.

 

On the flip side, if you didn't have that conversation with Bull or you any other race background, I can see where you might take them as not being any different from the rest (although I think it's reasonable for mage elf and humans to be wary as well).

 

 

 

 

 

This is again dependant on dialogue choices - picking all the non-believer (or skeptic) dialogue options makes the whole enterprise seem less religious.  So while you certainly could get a reading where the Inquisition is an aggressive religious organization, I don't see any reason to extrapolate that to every possible world state.

 

Every example of Elf is extreme, from Solas dread wolf, to the tranquil mage researcher in haven, Sera,  Briealla .  When every templar doesn't questions their orders even if they are given by Croypheus, they are red lyrium robots, or born in hartred of mages. Then the mages are no differently worse. Gespard would kill his own kin, and Florianne would kill them both. Wardens are sheep who respond to the calling. The Tevinter are responsible for mass genocide. Mostly any power who can get away with it tries, including the mayor of Crestwood. Meanwhile everyone does assasination attempts, Lelianna, including on your consuel Josephine.

 

This is the Dark ages, an age wrought in darkness. The light isn't a bunch of hypocrites from the Chantry, or your fantatical distrusting kill them first to convert them inquisition.

 

Sure if morale means being able to get horny with Iron Bull by all means keep the added sentiment

[Navasha]

The other difference being that elves, dwarves, mages, etc. are all INDIVIDUALS.   I can judge each one separately by their actions.   The Qun wants to be thought of as a single entity, so I likewise judge it by ITS actions.    It is found unworthy of care.    Those weren't people on that dreadnought, they were tools and I honored them in the same way as they think of themselves.   Just cogs in a machine.  

 

Sacrificing people over a bunch of machines?   I don't think so.   Besides, the Qunari also displayed a complete incompetence in that mission.   They failed their job interview when applying to work with the inquisition.  

[Raikas]

Every example of Elf is extreme, from Solas dread wolf, to the tranquil mage researcher in haven, Sera,  Briealla .  When every templar doesn't questions their orders even if they are given by Croypheus, they are red lyrium robots, or born in hartred of mages. Then the mages are no differently worse. Gespard would kill his own kin, and Florianne would kill them both. Wardens are sheep who respond to the calling. The Tevinter are responsible for mass genocide. Mostly any power who can get away with it tries, including the mayor of Crestwood. Meanwhile everyone does assasination attempts, Lelianna, including on your consuel Josephine.

 

Briala - and especially Sera - aren't elven in the sense of the Dalish, and even among the Dalish we meet elves who are isolationist and ones who are not (and even ones who are pro-Inquisition), so there's no way you can claim they all speak with a unified voice.

 

Similarly, you can't claim that every templar serves without question: Cullen is an ex-templar, we see Barris questioning orders, and there's dialogue that indicates that others have left the order to join as well.

 

And it's true again with the wardens - you meet some who can be turned to your cause, and Alistair/Loghain/Stoud are always on your side.

 

On the flip side, the Qunari speak with a unified voice - even Bull acknowledges it - that unity of voice is a core part of being Qunari.  As soon as a Qunari says otherwise, they're Tal Vashoth, and no longer representative of the Qun.  You can like or admire that, or just not care because you value the alliance over the thread - and fair enough - but it doesn't change that they're unified in a way that no other group is.

 

 

Sure if morale means being able to get horny with Iron Bull by all means keep the added sentiment

 

I have no idea where this is coming from, but I actually think it's creepy that Bull can continue a relationship if he stays with the Qun, given that relationships aren't a part of the doctrine, but I then there's a lot about that one that I find questionable, so I'm probably not the best judge of it.

[ThreeF]

I have no idea where this is coming from, but I actually think it's creepy that Bull can continue a relationship if he stays with the Qun, given that relationships aren't a part of the doctrine, but I then there's a lot about that one that I find questionable, so I'm probably not the best judge of it.

 

I kind of think that this is the most drama ridden romance option you can have with him, because if his believes in Qun is reinforced then to him IQ becomes just a target to spy on. From the perspective of Qun, having IB to be a IQ's SO is basically the same as having the best access possible to Inquisition's information. 

Strategically speaking you can not have a relationship with Bull and have him a Qun, unless you love some serious drama.

[Raikas]

I kind of think that this is the most drama ridden romance option you can have with him, because if his believes in Qun is reinforced then to him IQ becomes just a target to spy on. From the perspective of Qun, having IB to be a IQ's SO is basically the same as having the best access possible to Inquisition's information. 
Strategically speaking you can not have a relationship with Bull and have him a Qun, unless you love some serious drama.

Sure, I can see that - I just don't see the connection to the rest of PocketDragon's point about the Qun versus the other groups.

[CVigilantia]

The other difference being that elves, dwarves, mages, etc. are all INDIVIDUALS.   I can judge each one separately by their actions.   The Qun wants to be thought of as a single entity, so I likewise judge it by ITS actions.    It is found unworthy of care.    Those weren't people on that dreadnought, they were tools and I honored them in the same way as they think of themselves.   Just cogs in a machine.  

 

Sacrificing people over a bunch of machines?   I don't think so.   Besides, the Qunari also displayed a complete incompetence in that mission.   They failed their job interview when applying to work with the inquisition.  

 

You're telling me the Qun's military acumen of "let's send our allies most important asset in the war with 8 other people and hope they don't get swarmed by the Venatori because our military Intelligence is always accurate" didn't impress you? It's a damn good thing this "nigh invulnerable Venatori Force that evidently can't be defeat by my dragon-killing party" didn't come at the Inquisitor because then the Qunari wouldn't have an excuse for being pissed. "Yeah, we kinda expected you to die to protect our dreadnaught even though it was our grossly inaccurate intelligence and our battleplans to send only 8 of you out there."

 

What about the fact the cliffs didn't matter because the mages literally walked up to the Dreadnought on the beach and destroyed it... in 15 seconds. Yeah... Sorely disappointed when I saw that cutscene.

 

If anything, given the Qunari military's famed competency this would seem like an assassination plot gone awry if it was any other country (like some Venatori-mind-controlled general trying to get the inquisitor killed).

 

Sigh... Woulda been nice if we had the choice to take that big force on and be the big damn heroes. Something like "Let's get the bastards!" followed by you charging at a horde of Venatori and killing them all (leading to more Power, Influence and a favor owed by the Qunari).

[Stelae]

There's also the longer term to consider. 

 

An alliance with the Inquisition might well shorten or worse, end, the war between the Qunari and Tevinter.  Indeed, if the Qunari have the brains of a gnat between them, they'll angle their intelligence so that you are hitting targets that are beneficial to them.  Venatori, Vint infrastructure and so on.  The mission makes it very clear that they expect you to risk your resources for them to achieve their goals, even if it's their crappy intelligence that put you in the situation in the first place.

 

What happens after Tevinter falls?  The Qunari make no secret of wanting to spread the Qun by conquest, and the current Arishok, back when he was Sten,  voiced the opinion that an alliance with the Qunari isn't worth the paper it's written on.  The previous Arishok thought of non-Quanri as little better than beasts -- they aren't going to worry about breaking their word to beasts.  What if, by allying with them, you are helping them launch their eventual invasion?  How is that good strategy?

 

Better to have Leliana's people searching for the formula for gaatlok, and keeping Bull and the Chargers, for mine. 

[DuskWanderer]

Screw the Qun. I'd never allow those zealots into anything. Qunari are perfectly capable of lying and doing horrible things, and their philosophy is both insane and idiocy personified. You're stranded on an island, and you won't build a ship because you are not a shipbuilder? As terrible as Anders was, he summed it up well: "Of all the ridiculous piece-of-**** arguments I've ever heard!"

 

Yes, have Leliana's people find the gaatlok. She'd be skilled enough to get it. 

[ShepardMyFriend]

I don't like the Qun but...man...it's hard to turn down an elite naval force in time of war.

[Ser Kilroy]

I save the chargers. While find the qun interesting, i cant trust them.

Also dont like that they want to spread their religion by the sword.

[Nic Mercy]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Your inability to put aside your personal feelings in such a situation compromises your ability to command. You are unfit to lead. 

 

I don't agree with this line of thinking. You damage the loyalty of your troops if you throw their lives carelessly away, especially when you're essentially sacrificing those trusted and proven troops for a questionable alliance with unproven allies in the hopes of "trading up". If you have no regard for the lives of your men it is YOU who is unfit to lead IMO.

 

Now don't get me wrong. Sometimes there are hard calls to make... but this was not one of them. If the Qun get their panties in a twist at the Inquisition because the VENATORI blew up their dreadnaught then they clearly are not a good choice to build an alliance with. Ultimately however, the fault of the situation lies mainly in the poor writing of the scene. While a large number of troops would be spotted, we should still have been able to have far more support there. Leliana's scouts should have been able to trave to the stormcoast undetected and been ready to archer snipe the Venatori on the beach before they could blow up the dreadnaught. But we're not given such an option.

[PocketDragon]

The Elves send little children into the woods to fend for themselves, if they have too many within their collectives they exile prejuduce to gender. Everyone encountered within the game has had a kill first question later approach. Solas kill zem mages because my spirit has faded, probably having an evil agenda, responsible for other war crimes. Sera I would not even recruit into the inquistion, but her network is useful in gaining some items, bee's. Most other Elves encountered have been bigoted by other nations, lacking in trust.

 

Liliana, kills anybody who undermines her, first dialogue in Haven you have had to put a stop to, let, or ignore. Meanwhile she wants to assassinate everything first. I mainly have her scouting or collecting coin. Unless they are a really bad influence, and her spies can make a better difference.

 

Templars fanatic's who must use drugs to kill mages, unquestioningly, created just to kill mages

 

Mages would kill the world with wild magic

 

Tevinter a dictatorship a nation whom commited mass genocide on the elves, keep slaves etc etc.

 

The Chantry brands heretic's for not believing in the maker

 

The rest of any, all, world power's would kill, fight, commit genocide, enslave, amongst themselves. If bringing them more power, they are dictatorships.

 

No more, no less, than the individuals of Iron Bull, or the Ben-Hesserth agent bringing requested alliegance.

 

You cannot damage the loyality of your troops. They are assigned to completing a task. The company of those troops weren't under your command, they are mercenaries, who are tasked with being employed into your cause. They did what they did for Iron Bull stated in the mission.

 

Iron Bull changes back into his former role because he failed at leadership, painfully obvious on that mission. His approval, disapproval, loyality remains the same. His happiness has merely become hardened, such a shame when he was a warrior anyway.

[d-boy15]

I still don't understand about alliance with qun is help them set foots in southern thedas...

They already there, everywhere. They just hand their assets and intels to inquisition. It's military joint ops, not a cultural sharing.

[ThreeF]

An alliance with the Inquisition might well shorten or worse, end, the war between the Qunari and Tevinter.  Indeed, if the Qunari have the brains of a gnat between them, they'll angle their intelligence so that you are hitting targets that are beneficial to them.  Venatori, Vint infrastructure and so on.  The mission makes it very clear that they expect you to risk your resources for them to achieve their goals, even if it's their crappy intelligence that put you in the situation in the first place.

 

And not only that, if you think about  it, the whole thing is kind of fishy. I sort of think the Qun's intend was to test Bulls and Inquisition loyalty and see how easily they can manipulate the Inquisition (because in this game aside from couple people everyone has an angle they are working).

 

Bull been running alone for way too long time and they must know what sort of person Inquisitor is.  The most suspicious things in the whole affair is that if you rescue the Charges there is no indication whatsoever that something bad happened in Denerim, none.  The bonus side about rescuing the Charges is that you get to spy on Qun, you get to know who are the Qun's spies and observe them.

[PocketDragon]

And not only that, if you think about  it, the whole thing is kind of fishy. I sort of think the Qun's intend was to test Bulls and Inquisition loyalty and see how easily they can manipulate the Inquisition (because in this game aside from couple people everyone has an angle they are working).

 

Bull been running alone for way too long time and they must know what sort of person Inquisitor is.  The most suspicious things in the whole affair is that if you rescue the Charges there is no indication whatsoever that something bad happened in Denerim, none.  The bonus side about rescuing the Charges is that you get to spy on Qun, you get to know who are the Qun's spies and observe them.

 

I really admire your thinking. Upon making somebody an enemy, you can therefore spy upon them.

 

Not use their resources, intel, granted.  Prior to speculating hidden agenda. Which further intel gained through inaction isn't even granted.

[ThreeF]

I really admire your thinking. Upon making somebody an enemy, you can therefore spy upon them.

 

Not use their resources, intel, granted.  Prior to speculating hidden agenda. Which further intel gained through inaction isn't even granted.

 

They were my enemy to begin with and I don't want to use their resources if that means I make it easier for them to use me. If Bull returns to Qun that is exactly what I will be doing. I rather build my own naval power than enter a questionable alliance.

[PocketDragon]

They were my enemy to begin with and I don't want to use their resources if that means I make it easier for them to use me. If Bull returns to Qun that is exactly what I will be doing. I rather build my own naval power than enter a questionable alliance.

 

They weren't your enemy. No more, No less than anybody else. They went to exploit weakness much later, because it meant them, gaining more power. Intel that you have only speculated upon from much later game completion, that is not granted through your own inaction.

 

The Chantry, Templars, Mages, and any other kingdom does the same

 

You do not command any naval power from the mountains. You could not stop the threat from Corypheus at that mission time, which is why you had requested their help, not the other way around.

[ThreeF]

They weren't your enemy. No more, No less than anybody else. They went to exploit weakness much later, because it meant them, gaining more power.

 

The Chantry, Templars, Mages, and any other kingdom does the same

 

You do not command any naval power from the mountains. You could not stop the threat from Corypheus at that mission time, which is why you had requested their help, not the other way around.

 

But they were and they still are. Qun are conquerors, Chantry, Templars, Mages are different kind of threat/situation that need different kind of handling.

 

I didn't need Qun to beat Corypheus, what are you talking about?

 

As for mountains and naval powers, tell that to Peter I

[PocketDragon]

But they were and they still are. Qun are conquerors, Chantry, Templars, Mages are different kind of threat/situation that need different kind of handling.

 

I didn't need Qun to beat Corypheus, what are you talking about?

 

As for mountains and naval powers, tell that to Peter I

 

The Tevinter those conquerors whom committed mass genocide by purging the Elves, when keeping household slaves.

 

The Chantry are the biggest hypocrites in the game, one that you have had direct hand in fashioning, through assassination. After the disaster with their Divine. Although honestly praise the maker, for any of your endeavoured utopia.

 

The Templars, Mages would both go to Corypheus if it means killing the other side. Because their faith is based entirely on unquestioningly hating one another.

 

No less, or different then anybody else whom commits attrocity within this game, when it means them gaining power. They are fanatically fundamentally flawed, because they're logic is a dictatorship.

 

You don't need anybody to defeat Corypheus, because that is your games goal. But lets wait for further DLC to find out who really had the biggest hidden agenda.

 

Because of your thinking. Here is offered explanation. The mission was based upon stopping Red Lyrium escaping from a naval port, accepting the Qun's Dreanaught to stop this Corypheus threat. After completing objective you gain alliegance. The mission was brought to you by an active Ben-Hesserth agent within your own command Iron Bull, via his, your intelligence within those reports he had sent back to the Qun, concerning the Red Templar menace, attack on Haven, etc. You had also previously conducted a scouting mission prior to any arrangement through a sub mission from Iron Bull.

[ThreeF]

The Tevinter those conqueror whom commit mass genocide by purging the Elves when keeping household slaves.

 

The Chantry are the biggest hypocrites in the game, one that you have had direct hand in fashioning, through assassination.

 

TheTemplars and the Mages would both go to Corypheus if it means killing the other side. Because their faith is based entirely on unquestioningly hating one another.

 

No less, or different then anybody else whom commits attrocity within this game, when it means them gaining power. They are fanatically fundamentally flawed, because they're logic, is a dictatorship.

 

You don't need anybody to defeat Corypheus, because that is your games goal. But lets wait for further DLC to find out who really had the biggest hidden agenda.

 

I'm not speaking from a sentimental point of view, my thought process is rather calculative. In game Tevinter has stayed out of the conflict, so I'm not sure why you are mentioning them. The Chantry is the driving force behind the nation on whose land Inquisition exists, it's a completely different situation than with Qunari, not because they are hypocrites, but because they are a different kind of power and threat and by the end of the game you get the chance to solidify your influence withing their ranks. Templars and Mages had bad leaders and you need at least one of the faction to close the breach, you don't need Qunari for anything.

[PocketDragon]

I like the way you have ignored the mission objective. Because any mercenaries were of the utmost importance, not stopping Red Lyrium at that time.

 

No. It is not bad leaders within the Mages,Templar, Chantry ranks. Rather their entire ways of thinking that are as equally flawed. The Tevinter you can allign with after Wicked Minds and Wicked hearts, aswell as the other option through alliance, when having those human connections.

 

It could possibly be bad leaders within the Qun, when they are a dictaorship. A mindest towards any oppostion to crush, effectively making slaves of they own people, when it means those, being against, their own sense of order. What can you do when they got horns, and cows go moo when they see red....

[umadcommander]

saved the chargers, it was the "right" thing to do really, im too soft hearted to just sit back and watch them die

[ThreeF]

I like the way you have ignored the mission objective. Because any mercenaries were of the utmost importance, not stopping Red Lyrium at that time.

 

No. It is not bad leaders within the Mages,Templar, Chantry ranks. Rather their entire ways of thinking that are as equally flawed. The Tevinter you can allign with after Wicked Minds and Wicked hearts, aswell as the other option through alliance, when having those human connections.

 

It could possibly be bad leaders within the Qun, when they are a dictaorship. A mindest towards any oppostion to crush, effectively making slaves of they own people, when it means those, being against, their own sense of order

 

Ignore? That's your way of viewing it, not mine. I've noticed that you take the missions objective very literate, to me it's not as simple as go from point a to b to accomplish the goal, there are many other parameters that should be considered and some of them are "what is the goal?" "what are the motives?"

 

I don't remember allying with Tevinter or having an option to do that, so it didn't happen for me and i can't comment on it, since I don't know the context.

 

At the point of the game when you meet Mages and Templars, it is no longer important what led him to the situation they are in, it is important to see what can be done with it. Same with Chantry, same with Qunari. The difference between Mages/Templars, Chantry and Quinary is that they affect the Inquisition differently, they are different. You don't solve every single problem in the same way, different problems need different solutions.