What I don't get is how Iron Bull leaves totally into your hands a decision which is going to change radically his life, for best or for worse.
I mean, this is not a situation where you are just persuading someone to talk/forgive/kill someone. He's willingly leaving you to decide for him whether or not he should give up with his beliefs, and to turn his back on his people and his religion. I honestly think that a Qunari would never leave you to choose for him.
What I don't get is how Iron Bull leaves totally into your hands a decision which is going to change radically his life, for best or for worse.
I mean, this is not a situation where you are just persuading someone to talk/forgive/kill someone. He's willingly leaving you to decide for him whether or not he should give up with his beliefs, and to turn his back on his people and his religion. I honestly think that a Qunari would never leave you to choose for him.
If you listen carefully to his dialogues and general banter you will see that he is conflicted about this whole Qunari thing. He has questioned it, he sees its faults, he hates the role that is assigned to him, he sticks to it because he is afraid he will go mad without the Qun structure. His greatest fear is madness. His whole problem is that he can't decide, he wants you to take this decision for him (which says a lot about his sadomasochistic tendencies actually but that's another topic).
This mission is not just about Charges vs Qunari Navy.
Bull leaves the decision up to you because he honestly can't make that call. He is divided by what he WANTS, which is to save the Chargers and what he has been programmed to do. He's been brainwashed into following the Qun's orders, but he actually doesn't want to do it.
He knows the "right" thing to do is save his men, but the Qun authority right there asking him to do otherwise.
If you listen carefully to his dialogues and general banter you will see that he is conflicted about this whole Qunari thing. He has questioned it, he sees its faults, he hates the role that is assigned to him, he sticks to it because he is afraid he will go mad without the Qun structure. His greatest fear is madness. His whole problem is that he can't decide, he wants you to take this decision for him (which says a lot about his sadomasochistic tendencies actually but that's another topic).
This mission is not just about Charges vs Qunari Navy.
So, we are saying that basically he' s just a Tal-Vashot in denial, correct?
Propaganda for indescisive cows who moo, I.E I.E I Ohhhhhh.
Failing flat out. In any reasoning on the concept of why they had tasked you with any conclusion, why they hesistated upon first order of retreat, why they even had you previously scout the region prior, why they had brought you the mission.
Maybe they just want to chew the cud? Not becoming that leader. So instead just gave the easy task to a bunch of misfits, whom they personally could not even name, and didn't know each ability and strengths. All because they literally ate those hops.
Fine leadeship, one of which you are forced to command. I take any mission, objective literally on the information I have at the time. Otherwise there is no point to playing it. Probably the same fans who cannot see their world ending from a solar flare, writing romance into later resurrection
I don't speculate into the unavoidable
So, we are saying that basically he' s just a Tal-Vashot in denial, correct?
Well, I think it's more complicated than that, from what I gather Tal-Vashot identify themselves as those who reject the Qun and they all have some sort of code in regard to Qun (different groups different codes), so in a way I don't see them functioning as individuals, they are just smaller groups with their own structure. Bull on the other hand is an individual. To me the only right answer to who Bull is (which is his dilemma if he forsakes the Qun) is that "Iron Bull is Iron Bull".
So, we are saying that basically he' s just a Tal-Vashot in denial, correct?
Well pretty much its the reason he is in the south in the first place he is actually a person the re educators could not "fix" they did not know what to do with him so they sent him south.
if there is impact to the game u see it in DA4, u wont see impact of awry mission in DAI, some u see only in DA4 or maybe even in DLC
in most of my saves i have let them die, if u ask why, then i say, that what a good leader would do, they knew the risks when the singed in & became Bull's men, & u can bet that meany soldiers even in real life have died cause of that, cause of orders not to retreat, the thing is u have no idea what happens cause of ur decision of saving bull's men, it could be ferry bad, like red liryum finding its way to more people & more people die cause u did not had the guts to do hard choice, who is not willing to make the hard choices if not fit to rule, ruling is not for soft people, & world leaders know that well, even they are face to face with them time to time & the ones who know it best are the dead leaders
some call letting them die a bad choice, i will try this with my bad inquisitor, well that line made me laugh a bit, neither of the choices is bad in DAI, but in DA4 saving the men mite have bad consequences like i mentioned before, also u can bet that in that ship there are more people then Bull's men
I personally always save Bulls Men as the Qun is a very scary thing. A society so rigid you cannot change your own personal destiny or express a desire to change without having to be brainwashed. I don't see the Qun as freedom on any level and based on who you have in your party with Iron Bull, his blind dedication to the Qun is a bit scary. Other than that, I liked Bulls crew.
Here is a good example of Bioware missing an opportunity. There's no real benefit to sacrificing the Chargers. I mean by the time I get around to doing this quest I'm usually sitting at 150-200 power with only the Temple of Mythal area to open. So do I keep the loyal mercenary company filled with colorful characters or pick up a staff (schematic?) and a couple war table missions? Now if I could have seen some boss final battle that included Qunari dreadnoughts laying siege to some Venatori keep in Tevinter that might have made it worthwhile. I didn't really agonize over the decision the way I should - like way back in ME1 deciding Ash and Kaiden's fate.
Guest_john_sheparrd_*
I personally always save Bulls Men as the Qun is a very scary thing. A society so rigid you cannot change your own personal destiny or express a desire to change without having to be brainwashed. I don't see the Qun as freedom on any level and based on who you have in your party with Iron Bull, his blind dedication to the Qun is a bit scary. Other than that, I liked Bulls crew.
i agree, but to beat the enemy u must know the enemy & best way to learn about the enemy is Allie with enemy, keep ur friends close & enemy's closer 
Qun is as bad as slavery
with my char i told the Elf what i think about the Qun 
, after i found out that its possible, but i doubt it has any impact in future
d-boy15, on 19 Jan 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:
If its up to me I would design the choice to be chosen by Bull but based on players influence like Leliana.
His men and his life, it should be up to him alone.
i agree, but then it would not be a DA RPG, u have to make them grater persons that they are or real scum, ur choice, but i would do it differently, in that mission he makes the choice, but the time u get to that point u have build him the kind of person who wont sacrifice hes men, the way u talk to him will change him, but first time u don't know how he will change, to good or worse, also new missions where bull can have special option, like he gets mad wants to kill the jerk, like solas turning hes mission, & ur decision there effects him, also mission what is similar with the Demand of the qun & he leads ur men & u don't allow them to be sacrificed (that mite be to obvious trigger, but u get my point), also option to Bull's mission, u can switch, Chargers get ur mission & u get their mission & u can handle them so Chargers survive
copy from other topic
I loved the chargers but as a leader I had to let them go, the benefits that come with the alliance far outweigh the loss of one group of soldiers. People talk about the Qun being bad, but if that's the case why take the mission to begin with? Any or all of the chargers could have died taking that hill to ensure the success of the mission.
After seeing the long term impact of it though I'll probably just keep the Chargers next time because at least you'll see them around Skyhold. Aside from a Staff Schematic the decision didn't seem to amount to much. But I'll wait and see the difference in how Bull's story plays out to make a final call on that.
Sacrifice the chargers, Bull ultiamtely agrees with it and thanks you for it.
he agrees with u either way, only thing hes more happy when they live + impact we don't know cause DA4 is not out, he can do 1 char where they die & another where they live
I loved the chargers but as a leader I had to let them go, the benefits that come with the alliance far outweigh the loss of one group of soldiers. People talk about the Qun being bad, but if that's the case why take the mission to begin with? Any or all of the chargers could have died taking that hill to ensure the success of the mission.
After seeing the long term impact of it though I'll probably just keep the Chargers next time because at least you'll see them around Skyhold. Aside from a Staff Schematic the decision didn't seem to amount to much. But I'll wait and see the difference in how Bull's story plays out to make a final call on that.
u have enough ally's to beat the Qun, orley free marches if u play like i have & ferelden to i think Alistar is more the willing to help u when u need it, u do not need full Theades as ur ally, it enough it u have most Theades
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