341 réponses à ce sujet

[PocketDragon]

For me, its simple.   An alliance with the Qun is a deal with the devil anyway.    I certainly wasn't going to sacrifice my men to save a bunch of brainwashed collectivists.

 

Because they have horns, yikes?

 

They are not your men, they are Iron Bull's. They do not provide any additional benefits? Apart from being horny. Because now you might be able to get Iron bull in the sack? But then you probably could anyway. Sorry for poking fun but you are ruled by emotions here.

 

You hate and love, but your empathy is defined by emotion.

 

Are there other missions from the chargers after alliance lost, or even the same missions, under a different name as war table ops?

 

Pointless not to jeporadise a few too save many. Iron Bull respects you more, for that decision made on making a Qun alliance, the purpose for him being there on that mission. Within his characters nature, if you have bothered to follow his story, despite being sadden by the lost of men.

[RedIntifada]

Part of the problem is that you don't know how many people are on the dreadnaught. In my initial Mass Effect play through I chose to not save the Destiny Ascension in order to save the human fleet. I rationalised this on the basis that the Destiny Ascention is just 1 ship. However in a second play through of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 where I chose to save the destiny Asention in an interview with Khalisah al-Jilani my Shepard justifies the decision on the basis that you saved more lives on that ship then were lost in the human fleet... meaning even on a purely utalitarian level holding back the human fleet was wrong.

 

 

[Ieldra]

Because they have horns, yikes?

 

They are not your men, they are Iron Bull's. They do not provide any additional benefits? Apart from being horny. Because now you might be able to get Iron bull in the sack? But then you probably could anyway. Sorry for poking fun but you are ruled by emotions here.

 

You hate and love, but your empathy is defined by emotion.

 

Are there other missions from the chargers after alliance lost, or even the same missions, under a different name as war table ops?

 

Pointless not to jeporadise a few too save many. Iron Bull respects you more, for that decision made on making a Qun alliance, the purpose for him being there on that mission. Within his characters nature, if you have bothered to follow his story, despite being sadden by the lost of men.

You talk as if an alliance with the qunari was desirable in the first place. it isn't - at least from my main inquisitor's POV, and not at that time. It's a deal with the devil. if I'm not desperate enough to consider blood magic, I'm not desperate enough to consider an alliance with the qunari.

[PocketDragon]

I don't mean to reply endlessly. How many men are on any ship with sails? Heck an aircarft carrier has thousands more at times. Guessing anywhere between 50-250 possibly more. For the sake of a dozen

 

The vessel is a pointless thought though. The men on both sides did not matter, in that equation. It was the senario. The mission was brought to you by Iron Bull, for an alliance with the Qun to stop red lyrium spreading around the globe.

 

Qun racisim, seriously? Hate makes your decision emotional.

 

First time playing DA. I could not care less about past racisim, or the Qun way of thinking which tends to be fascist. I can only reform the Qun from alliance with them, but not as their enemy. Through Qun alliance, respect, and from them keeping Iron Bull as their agent.

 

From any new perspective to DA. It fails in all logic, to keep Iron Bull's men alive.

[Navasha]

@PocketDragon -  Some of us are not blind followers of orders.   "Logic" and pure numbers are meaningless when it comes to lives.   I don't trade whats "right" for an advantage or personal benefit.    

 

There is sacrifice that has meaning and there is not.    A soldier throwing himself on a grenade to save the lives of his friends has meaning and valor.   A commander sacrificing those under his command to save a ship full of the enemy is not.    Yes, the Qun are enemies of thought and free-will.   One single individual with free will and thought is worth more than 1000 robotic emotionless slaves of the Qun. 

 

The whole mission is viewed completely differently by those of us that know that the Qun is an aggressive, untrustworthy, brutal faction.   Some of us just don't compromise our principles for some short-term promise of personal benefit.

[Ravenmyste]

So on my first playthrough I spared Iron Bull's men and lost the Qunari alliance. I believe on my 2nd playthrough I did the opposite.

 

I am just wondering is Iron Bull happier that he is now consider a Tal-Vashoth for sparing his men or back under the Qun?

 

For me it just feels right to save his men.

 

The whole fight seems ridiculous because I fight hordes of Venatori's and the guys on the Storm Coast didn't seem that different. I mean we could have assisted Iron Bull's men. I mean if four guys can take out a High Dragon than 6 or 8 Venatori's shouldn't of been difficult.

i did the same i dont like how they was trying to make the mens lives wortthless, and the fact that he seems to already accepted that theyw as his men so easily that  means that he was in fact already a tal vash  since he  was connected to his people, even thought i despise how the qun are i do like how they always have  place for your skills, but to  knowing throw lives away for people that you become connected tonope  i will always go bulls men in my first playthru now comes the hard part of playing thru my second as a warrior.. augh

[PocketDragon]

That is because Navasha, you are emotional, and you are letting feelings cloud your judgement.

 

The men do not matter, the vessel did not matter either. In war both sides are lost. It was about doing the right thing.

 

A mission where you are supposed to achieve your goal, or sacrificing that goal, because of another situation. You agreed to originally sign up to alliance, or you would have never attempted the mission. So what has changed?

 

.

[Ieldra]

@PocketDragon -  Some of us are not blind followers of orders.   "Logic" and pure numbers are meaningless when it comes to lives.   I don't trade whats "right" for an advantage or personal benefit.    

 

There is sacrifice that has meaning and there is not.    A soldier throwing himself on a grenade to save the lives of his friends has meaning and valor.   A commander sacrificing those under his command to save a ship full of the enemy is not.    Yes, the Qun are enemies of thought and free-will.   One single individual with free will and thought is worth more than 1000 robotic emotionless slaves of the Qun. 

 

The whole mission is viewed completely differently by those of us that know that the Qun is an aggressive, untrustworthy, brutal faction.   Some of us just don't compromise our principles for some short-term promise of personal benefit.

Well, the other side has a point when they point out that as a leader you can't always afford to not compromise your principles. You need to consider the moral cost, but also the political, ideological, economical and strategic costs and benefits. That's why I was relieved when it turned out it would probably not be worth it, factoring in all the costs and benefits.

 

With higher benefits, I might have taken the offer, hated myself for it and considered that part of the burden of command. I'm glad I didn't have to.  

[DarthSideus2]

Well, I have saved the Chargers twice now because that is what IB wants, but I play as a mage and just found out the reward at the end of War Table missions if you side with the Qun, so "bye bye" Chargers.

[SomberXIII]

No Qun. NEVER!

[Ieldra]

Well, I have saved the Chargers twice now because that is what IB wants, but I play as a mage and just found out the reward at the end of War Table missions if you side with the Qun, so "bye bye" Chargers.

Yeah, for two pieces of cloth more on a utility slot in one weapon, compared to the two second-best versions, equalling a +4 to one attribute using tier 4 materials. Nope. Still not worth it. Also, as a mage I have even more reason to distrust the qunari than everyone else.

[Navasha]

Doing the right thing?   What is the right thing?    Letting an enemy commander make the decisions?   Was this YOUR plan that is failing here or the Qunari's?    Did you make the tactical decisions in that mission or the Qunari?  

 

THEY approached you for the help.   THEY came up with the whole tactical plan.   THEY are the ones who didn't have the correct intelligence on the situation.   THEY are the ones asking you to take the losses for the operation.   THEY are the ones who have all the gains if successful.   What do you care if red lyrium is being shipped to the Qunari lands.  

 

I agreed to help them with their operation, but I am not taking the losses for their failures.    Blindly following bad orders is sort of the whole underlying theme behind this game.  

 

Doing the right thing is questioning when someone tells you do something you know is wrong.   Blindly doing it anyway is the WRONG choice. 

 

"If you feel bad about what you are doing, its a pretty good sign you are doing something wrong."  - Inquisitor to Leliana

[frankf43]

The chargers every time.I don't trust the Qun not to turn on me the minute my back is turned. DA:2 soured me towards the Qun. They cannot be trusted.

[Wittand25]

That is because Navasha, you are emotional, and you are letting feelings cloud your judgement.

 

The men do not matter, the vessel did not matter either. In war both sides are lost. It was about doing the right thing.

 

A mission where you are supposed to achieve your goal, or sacrificing that goal, because of another situation. You agreed to originally sign up to alliance, or you would have never attempted the mission. So what has changed?

 

.

For me the change happened, when I learned the idiocy of the Quanari plan. Someone who thinks that using a slow, hard to manoeuvre and most importantly next to defenceless vessel trying to intercept a fast, agile smuggling ship clearly is not very good at planning..

 

Together with the codex entries giving examples of Quanari propaganda it is rather obvious that they will turn on the inquisition as soon as the breach is finally sealed. Since they only really offer information and the inquisition has already access to an extensive network of spies the alliance is not worth the cost.

 

Also saving the Chargers makes Bull´s old Tamma happy according to Cole.

[Ieldra]

"If you feel bad about what you are doing, its a pretty good sign you are doing something wrong."  - Inquisitor to Leliana

You may still consider it necessary to do it though. In fact, there may be situations where you can't afford to not do it, even if this one isn't.

[DarthSideus2]

Well you get the schematic for Tier 3 Masterwork Archon Staff as reward (my favorite Staff from DA2). I have seen where you can purchase this staff (quite expensive) or find as loot, but is there another way to get schematic? If not then ........

[Arvaarad]

My first playthrough, I saved the dreadnought. It's what that particular inquisitor would have done, since he had a fascination with the Qunari and really wanted the alliance. Plus, it was a whole ship full of people. Just because the inquisitor didn't know them personally doesn't make their lives less valuable.

I was mentally prepared to watch the Chargers die, but oh man I should not have talked to Cole afterward. Horns pointing up.

[zeypher]

Chargers everytime, Qun do not ally or bargain. Even the elf Gatt tells this to you. If you want to give the qun a beachhead for the the coming invasion go right ahead, i did not. DO remember faith has a lot to do in this game, and Qun's belief system will never ally with ours. So i see the so called alliance doomed from the start. Besdies by not llying the name tallis does not get mentioned in my game which is even better.

[PocketDragon]

I am amazed at the lack of logic expressed by your descision of sacrificing your goal's which was too complete a mission. Or the fact that some on here are, either rascist, or they think that they are mystic meg, having some kind of psychic ball that can predict the future.

 

The mission was gaining a Qun Alliance, to stop the spread of Red Lyrium. If you save Iron Bull's men you fail both objectives.

 

Iron Bull brought to you this mission, and you gain further reward upon that mission's success, not it's failure. from gaining respect, alliegance, title, and reward from both Iron Bull and the Qun.

 

The right thing, is obviously succeeding in objectives, otherwise why attempt them?

 

Logic is simple, emotions are endlessly flawed.

[Zetrial]

Logic does not impose goals. Alliances serve a purpose, and this one would have insignificant benefits. Can the qunari provide magical assitance? No. Would they send an army? Well, I don't know when I make the decision, but even *if* they sent an army, could I trust them not to stay past their welcome? Most emphatically: No.

 

An ally you can't trust is almost as bad as an enemy. I would always have to spend resources to watch my back. I'm not going to antagonize them needlessly, but I also won't do anything that helps them conquering the world.

 

Also, by refusing to sacrifice the Chargers, I deny the qunari a valuable asset and make it my own.

 

To add to you 'if' they send an army, it should be kept in mind, any army they send to you has to march through countries you have no actual control over. Would Orlais or Fereldan let a Qunari army march across their land unchecked to go an help the Inquisition? Hard to imagine they would, the Qunari may be the Inquisitions allies but they have exceptionally poor relations, nearly flat out hostile with the areas you would require them to be in. Logistically they cannot offer significant aid to the Inquisition.

[Bigdoser]

The Chargers.

 

The Qunari can't be trusted. You give them an inch they'll take a mile and then some.

Yup the alliance pretty much gives them an extra foot hold in the south for the future. 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Depends on my RP for that game what I do. my cannon is to save the Chargers because my cannon is romancing Bull and, he's happier in the long run if you save them. My cannon Quizzy is a compassionate man that that thinks people close to him are more important than the rest of the world so, he softens Lelianna, saves the Chargers, Allies with the Templars because of Cullen, takes the long road to help Jossie, etc....

[PocketDragon]

As a leader, do you make friends with every solider, because when it is war, they will kill you emotionally, when they die? Cmon now seriously you would never succeed in a single objective. Loosing men is never easy, that was the point of the scenario..

 

You probably can still romance BULL, after the lost. Infact he probably respects you more, from the lost of his men, which why he gives the most favour, greatly approves when you execute the prisoners or torture them. Greatly approved of the Qun alliance, despite putting a fist through the wall, and being seen as more glum.

 

The whole mystic meg crystal ball can see the Qunari attacking nonsense, is drivel to this situation. It is however racisim, to a way of thinking different then yours, which makes you no better.