341 réponses à ce sujet

[Valerius]

I'm pissed off on my mage because although I want to save the chargers because I don't believe in the qun (especially as a mage), I find myself having to save the qunari simply because they unlock the schematic for my favorite staff. Wtf bioware why do you tie a schematic to a quest when you know very well most people playing mages will help the chargers over the qunari.

[d-boy15]

You guys seem to act like that ship is no one on board. Just because they are not vo by Jennifer Hale and share drink with you doesn't mean they are not peoples.

[Broganisity]

The Qunari are a powerful force. They also cannot be trusted.

The Chargers are a reliable force, not as powerful, but can be trusted while their leader is under your employ. (and possibly loyal to you and your cause.)

 

The Inquisition is powerful, but it is built on faith and trust. The Inquisitor will not suffer one Qunari spy (even one that's just a Tal Veshoth in denial) for long, and they will do what they can to prevent more from entering its Hold and evaluating any faults that have not yet been remedied. In truth, it is not even about saving The Chargers; their faces mean nothing. It is about preserving the basis of what the Inquisition is about and ensuring they remain strong in the face of the troubles at hand, and the troubles that come after if need be.

 

The Inquisitor will not suffer an enlarged Qunari presence within in their holdings, seeking to spread the lies of The Qun while people seek to rebuild their lives. To allow such a risk is to endanger Fereldan, Orlais...even Tevinter, as much as they cannot be trusted themselves.

Simply put: the risk of the Qun is worse than the gain. The Qun seeks to submit all of Thedas to its rule. To bolster the strength of such a group that has the intent to convert or destroy you later is not worth it. Ignore them, or better yet: show them that you have no interest in dealing with them. Preserving a skilled mercenary band for other missions is just a bonus.

[LaughingBanana]

I chose the Qunari over the Charger in my current playthrough.

 

Emotionally speaking it's easy to choose the Charger over the Qunari, but rationally & logically speaking the willingness of a powerful nation to cooperate easily overcomes a small band of mercenary, in terms of end-game payoff.

 

Especially considering by shutting the Qunari off, you are not only closing the door of a potentially very powerful ally but also the chance to get to know and understand the Qunari better, instead of just viewing them as savages that deserve nothing but eternal scorn and war.

[Broganisity]

I chose the Qunari over the Charger in my current playthrough.

 

Emotionally speaking it's easy to choose the Charger over the Qunari, but rationally & logically speaking the willingness of a powerful nation to cooperate easily overcomes a small band of mercenary, in terms of end-game payoff.

 

Especially considering by shutting the Qunari off, you are not only closing the door of a potentially very powerful ally but also the chance to get to know and understand the Qunari better, instead of just viewing them as savages that deserve nothing but eternal scorn and war.

Respectable viewpoint, but don't forget the agenda of the Qun (and admittedly the Chant of Light) is for it to be spread across all of Thedas.

That fact alone puts The Qun and the Chantry nations in eternal conflict.

[LaughingBanana]

Respectable viewpoint, but don't forget the agenda of the Qun (and admittedly the Chant of Light) is for it to be spread across all of Thedas.

That fact alone puts The Qun and the Chantry nations in eternal conflict.

 

When speaking about conquering stuff around them, Qunari it's no different than Orlais or Tevinter, or any other major power in Thedas. They're not unique in that regard.

 

I am currently role-playing as a hardcore peace-loving Andrastian and if I think about what my current Inquisitor would personally choose in accordance to her viewpoint, it led me to the decision to save the Alliance instead of the Chargers. She admitted that she didn't understand Qun enough to judge whether it's a positive or negative force, and I feel as a peace-loving woman she'd love the opportunity to get to know the Qunari better, to understand their viewpoint and the Qun itself, and I feel like, in her viewpoint, the overall benefits of the alliance outweighs the personal sacrifice of the Chargers.

 

Because if there's one thing that can be said causing vast amount of major wars or conflict, it is the willingness to stigmatize and unwillingness to understand.

[Broganisity]

When speaking about conquering stuff around them, Qunari it's no different than Orlais or Tevinter, or any other major power in Thedas. They're not unique in that regard.

 

I am currently role-playing as a hardcore peace-loving Andrastian and if I think about what my current Inquisitor would personally choose in accordance to her viewpoint, it led me to the decision to save the Alliance instead of the Chargers. She admitted that she didn't understand Qun enough to judge whether it's a positive or negative force, and I feel as a peace-loving woman she'd love the opportunity to get to know the Qunari better, to understand their viewpoint and the Qun itself, and I feel like, in her viewpoint, the overall benefits of the alliance outweighs the personal sacrifice of the Chargers.

I like it.

I plan to play as a dwarf who has a similar viewpoint, once I'm done with my current human run.

[Laughing_Man]

It is not one shipment when the port remains open. If the Dreadnaught is sunk, more ships are passing the Red Lyrium trade daily, infecting thousands from all around the globe. Please play the mission again for you to grasp the impact of the scenario.

 

The Chargers are soldiers and they are not very good ones according to Iron Bull. Just a company of mecenaries doing an operation in war, whom are prepared to, live, or die according to descision made. Descisions in game should be based on completing objectives, or you will not succeed.

 

Rascism is an adverse view towards any race based biasly on hate and ignorance. Apparent here by misjudgement. However if there is any relation problems, you are in a much better position to reform. Once you have gained title, respect, alliegance, and reward, holding onto an active agent whom has not been exiled.

 

Once the inquisition knows of this port, it will be destroyed one way or the other - Qun or no, so what you miss is only one shipment.

There is no reason for the inquisition to ignore the port and not simply launch another operation to destroy it.

 

The writers failed badly here, there is no real dilemma aside from cutscene incompetence here, and even less so because your Qunari "allies" are in my opinion the most untrustworthy allies you can gain during DA:I.

 

I know what racism is, and I know what naivety is. I have nothing against the race and everything against the "religion"; so whatever you call me, a "racist" I am not. The only one incapable of judgment here is you, because you willfully ignore the danger even when the Qunari (Sten the Arishok) tell you to your face what an agreement with them is worth. A commander like you will die with a naive progressive smile on his face and a Qunari sword sticking through his chest.

 

The Qun "religion" is morally abhorrent no less than the worse characters Tevinter has to offer. The only difference between these two cases is that in tevinter nobody truly pretends that killing slaves for blood-magic is morally right. The Qunari on the other hand, see nothing wrong with "reeducating" people through chemical lobotomy, and doing just about anything else for their hallucinated "Certainty".

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Thw Qun sees people as tools to be used, working animals basically, you breed them to be the best for the jobs you need them to do and, train them as young as possible to do that job. They don't know any different so, they accept it and, that's fine. Where the problem for comes in is with thier desire to make the entire wourld submitt to the Qun. They see ALL people as animals, tools not just Qunari and those that volunteer to join them.

[NaclynE]

Well after doing a character that picked "saved the juggernaught" I would defenetly say save the charges. When I saved the ship Iron Bull beat himself up but recovered then sounded like a bloody robot despite placing a skull in homage to the charges. If you save the charges sure he becomes Tal Vashoth ("Traitor" if anyone played DA2) but he still has his fun loving identity and doesn't sound like a bloody robot puppet to the Qun.

 

The Qun are very strict from what Sten, the Tal Vashoth leader in DA 2, and Iron Bull say but thats their race and their system and their politics.

[PocketDragon]

Once the inquisition knows of this port, it will be destroyed one way or the other - Qun or no, so what you miss is only one shipment.

There is no reason for the inquisition to ignore the port and not simply launch another operation to destroy it.

 

The writers failed badly here, there is no real dilemma aside from cutscene incompetence here, and even less so because your Qunari "allies" are in my opinion the most untrustworthy allies you can gain during DA:I.

 

I know what racism is, and I know what naivety is. I have nothing against the race and everything against the "religion"; so whatever you call me, a "racist" I am not. The only one incapable of judgment here is you, because you willfully ignore the danger even when the Qunari (Sten the Arishok) tell you to your face what an agreement with them is worth. A commander like you will die with a naive progressive smile on his face and a Qunari sword sticking through his chest.

 

The Qun "religion" is morally abhorrent no less than the worse characters Tevinter has to offer. The only difference between these two cases is that in tevinter nobody truly pretends that killing slaves for blood-magic is morally right. The Qunari on the other hand, see nothing wrong with "reeducating" people through chemical lobotomy, and doing just about anything else for their hallucinated "Certainty".

 

Not at all. This is why the information is detailed further, explained, within that mission. The reasoning of keeping the Dreadnaught over the Chargers. Please play the mission again, for the information you have missed

 

The mission was destroying Red Lyrium escaping via the coast by using the Qun's Dreadnaught. Further gaining Alliegance from objective completion.

 

Sinking a single shipment with Dreadnaught, then choosing the later option of sinking that Dreadnaught.  What do you think happens? More ships transport more Red Lyrium, obviously, which is why this fact was explained.

 

It doesn't matter, later, that you return to the Storm Coast, and eventually deal with the Red/Templar port. The point remains ships are sailing away with the infectious cargo. However, now, you have no means to further destroy any ships.

 

Qun Ben-Hesserth, you have an active agent Iron Bull in your Inquistion. Whom you have much better means to reform, by seeking alliegance, not by immediately making an enemy. However the Qun are no different then any other in game playing powers within the kingdom's.  Each are corrupt, each of them, regardless, will stab you in the back for their own agenda's. The time however is war, there is much larger threats.  You deal with it. Not because maybe later, not known at this present time, this, that, whatever else is not current to any objective here....

 

Definitely not because there is some misguided, sentimental, value for keeping a few mercenaries alive, whom only hamper current mission objective's. As soldiers, they are expected to do a job. Not those mercenaries whom take your coin, but when they cannot win, expect a bail out, costing all objectives. Where even their own leader Iron Bull doesn't want to keep them alive, hence hesitating on the first order of retreat. Play the mission again. He is however obviously sadden by the lost of his men, whom he had made mistakes in their leadership.

[NasChoka]

I saved the ship. On the ship were probably more than 4 people.

The qunari have spies and ships and offer to help. So why should I let a lot of qunari die on the ship and miss the opportunity to make the inquisition stronger?

This was even easier to decide than to save hawke or Stroud, who was in DA 2 for about 1 minute.

[Norwood06]

Saved the ship.  No brainer. 

[CVigilantia]

So we have the Qunari, basically the USSR, and a lukewarm alliance at best. At the end of the day, the Qunari want you converted or dead but they're too busy with Tevinter to really screw you over. Your best option is to join with them or have them maintain the detente with Tevinter.

 

The red lyrium smugglers were basically strangled given everything I'd done to stem the Red Templar's red lyrium supply but let's ignore that. 

 

So the Qunari basically hand us the operation plan, intel, and movement orders on a nice package and say "don't worry, it'll work." Where's Leliana's intel? Where's the contingency plan and backup forces if things head south? Would bringing my 4 MP characters as backup really have tipped the Venatori off? 

 

What if, like Bull said before we even began the mission, the Venatori outnumber us or had additional mages in position like they actually did? Planning wise I was disappointed with them. 

 

Let's also not forget a few rather important things:

 

a) The hill didn't matter, the mages sunk the dreadnought from the shore.

Gatt was horribly off. "A half dozen mages would do serious damage" my ass! It took 3-4 mages to destroy the ship (and in less than 15 seconds). 

c) I'm the bloody inquisitor that's killed dragons. Why can't I just rush down there and kill the Venatori myself?

d) My inquisitor was still open to an alliance. It's not my fault the Qunari(and the game) shoe-horned us into this situation with their crap battle plan.

 

Meta: Dragon Age is the universe of heroes kinda like Mass Effect. Think about Tali/Wrex/Mordin or the Warden/Champion/Inquisitor before they got those titles. The fact of the matter is we don't know what role people will play in the future but anyone you meet personally in DA has a possibility to snowball their actions into the future. If there's one thing I've learned from Bioware games: Killing characters kills options in the future.

 

Overall, this was a sidequest and it showed. If this was given the same amount of importance as a main story mission we'd have a more choices and more details to work with.

[ThreeF]

Where even their own leader Iron Bull doesn't want to keep them alive, hence hesitating on the first order of retreat.

 

Bull the person wants to keep them alive, it's Bull the Qunari that doesn't. His hesitations comes from the fact that as Qunari he is expected and should make this sacrifice, but he "The Bull" don't want to do it.  Bull's whole character is about this particular inner conflict. If you choose the Qunari you don't sacrifice only the Charges you sacrifice Bull too.

[PocketDragon]

Bull the person wants to keep them alive, it's Bull the Qunari that doesn't. His hesitations comes from the fact that as Qunari he is expected and should make this sacrifice, but he "The Bull" don't want to do it.  Bull's whole character is about this particular inner conflict. If you choose the Qunari you don't sacrifice only the Charges you sacrifice Bull too.

 

I give an order to my commander telling Iron Bull to signal the retreat, he hesistates. Instead of immediately following through, questioning that order. Giving me reasons why the Chargers would carry out this mission to the last man. It is also further explained the importance of keeping the Dreadnaught. Please play the mission. Later upon returning to Skyhold when alliegance is made Iron Bull, greatly approves, and when his own title is restored adds further approval. Afterwards he punches the wall. I am no psychiatrist, but wasn't his choice obvious to that situation, when he came to me with the quest?

 

The scenario has only one outcome unless you are prejudice, or sentimental? This mission was an intended freindship scenario. Although judging from the mission facts, it's objectives, there can only be one logical, not an emotional conclusion.

 

The Quanri aren't communists, or who ever else ignorance has compared them to.

 

The drivelled nonsense about, killer robots taking over the world through assimilating everything into their collectives, ships that don't explode from wildfire, morale boosting coming from paid mercenaries who cry about not charging at their enemies, naval trading ports which only have one merchant ship in them. Is just that, utter nonsense.

[Big I]

A question; why would people who dislike/distrust the qunari even do Demands of the Qun at all? Can't you just refuse to do the mission at all when Bull brings it up?

[Hawklyn Starblade]

No, those tell us that the alliance still helps serve the Qun's purpose for it. The moment they no longer benefit, they will break it off. 

 

No, it wasn't. A woman who wants to fight or do other male roles is seen as a man by the Qun. That's not a retcon. 

 

Point here Sten, obviously had no idea that woman could fight and were considered men by the Qun. That seems to be something the writers came up for DA:I.

 

As for the Quanati denying any knowledge of the Arishoks attack on Kirkwall, thats to be expected,its SOP for governments to dissavow any knowledge of failed  questionable military operations. Had the Arishok succeeded i doubt the Quanari would have objected. Alliance or not the quanari have not given up on conquering Thedas, they are merely bideing their time.

[ThreeF]

I give an order to my commander telling Iron Bull to signal the retreat, he hesistates, instead of immediately following through, questioning that order. Giving me reasons why the Chargers would carry out their mission to the last man. It is also further explained the importance of keeping the Dreadnaught. Please play the mission. Later upon returning to Skyhold when alliegance is made Iron Bull, greatly approves, and when his own title is restored adds further approval. later he punches the wall. I am no psychiatrist, but wasn't his choice obvious to that situation, when he came to me with the quest?

 

I did played the mission. If i'm not mistaken he will greatly approve in the other case too. He will also approve when you tell him that he doesn't need a title, he is Bull, that's what defines him, his reply is a rather enthusiastic "I can work with that" . It's basically your role to push him into either direction (kind of same thing happens with Cullen)

 

He comes to you with that quest because of the orders, because first and foremost he answers to Qun and that has nothing to do with his personal likes and dislikes. He is a man who sees the order and structure as his only salvation from madness but he hates his role in the Qun (the "don't call me liar" reaction is a great indication of that) his travels resulted in him question the Qun, in his dialogues he often seems to cling to ideas instead of being sure of them (like Sten) as if he has to convince himself too. He is at a crossroad and you have the opportunity to shape him.

 

As for the rest of your post, people are entitled to play that quest in any way they want for whatever reason they want, there is no singular right solution and logical solutions are not always the right ones either.
 

[SolNebula]

You have to be realist in this case. Bull's men were hired thugs something my Inquisitor who focused on military might barely need. However the intelligence and naval power of the Qun are worth the deal. Never had any doubt and never going to have, the Raison d'État is more important than any personal issue.

[PocketDragon]

I did played the mission. If i'm not mistaken he will greatly approve in the other case too. He will also approve when you tell him that he doesn't need a title, he is Bull, that's what defines him, his reply is a rather enthusiastic "I can work with that" . It's basically your role to push him into either direction (kind of same thing happens with Cullen)

 

He comes to you with that quest because of the orders, because first and foremost he answers to Qun and that has nothing to do with his personal likes and dislikes. He is a man who sees the order and structure as his only salvation from madness but he hates his role in the Qun (the "don't call me liar" reaction is a great indication of that) his travels resulted in him question the Qun, in his dialogues he often seems to cling to ideas instead of being sure of them (like Sten) as if he has to convince himself too. He is at a crossroad and you have the opportunity to shape him.

 

As for the rest of your post, people are entitled to play that quest in any way they want for whatever reason they want, there is no singular right solution and logical solutions are not always the right ones either.
 

 

But he doesn't greatly approve, like he does when you have earnt their alliegance? He approves when he regained his own title. He also greatly approves when you behead the mayor, and also when you choose to make an example/torture the rune trapped historian.

 

He didn't like the liar title because that implicated him, still being their agent. Which is why he brings the quest, ultimately why an alliegance was on offer.

 

I was only there to complete the objective, stopping Red lyrium getting into other nations from somewhere I had control over. Although really. I didn't want to get Varric shooting his crossbow at me, when writing about the inquisitor who sold Red Lyrium to pay for the Qun chargers.

 

I am not debating anybody's right to play the game, emotionally, lets all have a cry about it, really? Instead I would like to logically complete any situations, quests, the game with rationality. 

 

I was stating there was only a logical course to play this mission, which is to complete the mission objective, without any sentimental attachments.

 

I didn't expect there to be so much make belief fiction attempted from what was mission fact.

[berelinde]

You guys seem to act like that ship is no one on board. Just because they are not vo by Jennifer Hale and share drink with you doesn't mean they are not peoples.

True, but when you accept the mission to recruit Bull and the Chargers, they become your responsibility. They are your agents, your men. The people aboard the dreadnaught are potential allies, but they are not your employees. Some people might believe that their responsibility toward people already in their employ is more compelling than a desire to seek new (untested) allies.

[ThreeF]

But he doesn't greatly approve, like he does when you have earnt alliegance?

 

I think he still greatly approves, i have that impression because I was actually kind of surprised when I saw it. 

 

 

He didn't like the liar title because that implicated him, still being thier agent.

 

Nope, he is very upfront about being their agent even when joining you, it's the first thing he say "i'm a mercenary, you can hire me, but i work for the Qun and will continue to do so". He objects because he doesn't like that role.

 

 

And there is not that much make believe there, there are many "logics" behind any decision, depends on your understanding of the situation and your personality. You almost sound like Sera there (or Spock).

[Ieldra]

I was simply stating there is only one logical course to play this mission, which is to complete the mission objective, without any sentimental attachments.

In which you are wrong. Your cost/benefit analysis is different from those of many other people, and you put different values into the variables. Logic only comes into it after you've put those values in.

 

I say you are ignoring important dimensions of the decision by refusing to consider anything else but the mission objective. The alliance does have value, and so does the mission objective, but so do the lives of the Chargers, Bull's future, and the strategic, political and ideological ramifications of your decision. The weight you give to these elements determines what the logical decision is, but logic alone cannot determine the weights you give them.