191 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryriena]

Are you saying that Sir Otto who went into the alienage, Knight captain Evangeline, Sir Emeric, Sir Brant and his lot at lothering and Aviline's husband amongst other examples were bad Templars?

We hardly spoke to Sir Otto, I never said that their wern't good people in the order. I said that the organization is corrupted and the good Templars never did anything to the bad ones no oversite like how police officers today act.

[kathic]

It did little to change my view of the Mages or the Templars. I still think the rebellion was needed but I was disappointed at how little it seemed to accomplish. The Templars are still a useful tool for protecting both the Mages and the people but they held far too much power. They abused their charges and broke their oaths. 

My view of the Wardens only diminished slightly. I had always known that they would use any means to achieve victory. While I respect them as heroes who are needed to defeat the Blight, I understand their treatment when there isn't one. They are single minded and not trustworthy.
 

The Qun is still an evil empire but maybe they are not as invincible as I thought.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Templars: I largely feel vindicated for believing in them. Once you remove the demon, they prove worthy allies.

 

The mages: were I still holding to the belief that freeing the mages is a great idea, I would be disappointed with them.

 

Qunari: man, I really want to love these guys, but I can never fully get behind the way they do things. However, I did feel that there were some promising things we saw from the Qun here, a willingness to be flexible and reach out.

 

The Grey Wardens: as I felt before, more trouble than they're worth and should be disbanded.

 

The Chantry: up to this point. I've loved to hate them, but this game has shown that they really are one of the most reasonable groups in Thedas and capable of making necessary changes. Overall, I am okay with them.

 

Elves: I do feel they deserve better. That said, I may have some issues with whatever Solas is planning.

[SwobyJ]

Templars - I went from netural-negative to neutral-good. From 'I want you disbanded because you suck' to 'I want you disbanded, but it isn't so personal'.

 

Mages - Not much changed really. I always saw mages as potential for huge incompetence and desperation, but I side with them nonetheless. For Fiona's group, sure, I put them in as part of the Inquisition, but its with the intent at least that they do their time and maybe the experience will harden them enough to be a more responsible group into the future, set largely free.

 

Grey Wardens - I'm not a Grey Warden fanboy who believes in their default awesomeness and I haven't been once since mid-Origins. DLC and side content and reflection on Origins events already had me more neutral on them, so DAI doesn't change much there. However, I'm glad that my personal theorizing about the Grey Wardens having to reform at some point into 'The Wardens' seems to be happening! Blackwall's story seems to indicate such.

 

Regardless of what we do in Inquisition, it only determines the makeup of southern Thedas and in ways that can be easily-enough adjusted in future titles. In all three cases, all the factions suffer huge losses, but also gain the potential for brighter futures. There will still be a place for the Wardens when all this is done (in general, after even future games). There will still be a place for those who drink lyrium for anti-magic abilities. There will still be a place for the magically attuned. In this, I am personally quite glad. I would have enjoyed more in-game reflection of these choices though, so I beseech Bioware for an expansion-type DLC that varies based on these factional decisions

 

So did my mind change? Yes, but not my opinions. I've never wanted the concept of 'holy blue knight that fights demons and evil mages' to go away, and I've never wanted mages to rule or become widely Tranquil, and I've never been highly pro or anti Wardens so... yeah.

 

The only faction in Thedas that I ardently oppose is the Qunari. I even value spirits and in a sense, demons  more than the Qunari. They wanna play 'convert or die'? Fine, I'll play 'convert or die' in this case, until further storytelling by Bioware

Iron Bull did nothing to change that for me. If anything, I wanted him as deprogrammed as possible, as soon as possible. There's a reason I also redacted my Synthesis choice in Mass Effect the first time. I'm not looking for immediate 'utopia', but consistent and sometimes even rapid progress? I can get behind that.

 

 

[SwobyJ]

I'm not as pro-100% unlimited mage freedom as I used to be. I found myself more sympathetic to the Templars and I see that the Circles are needed (I still believe they should be run by mages and should be a means to an end though). The mage rebellion was not a good idea and Fiona was a terrible leader.

 

I've always disliked the Chantry and after Inquisition I dislike it even more. Things need to change, luckily they can though. God I love making hardened Leliana into the Divine....

 

The Qun appears to be going through a process of re-writing by Bioware. Now we accept women living as men and you can change your role if you want. If that's true, then the Qun is slowly but surely moving away from being The Worst Thing Ever. If it's a lie (and this information comes from a guy who's title means "Liar" in Qunlat) then the Qun still sucks.

 

The Grey Wardens seem to have become nothing but "blight blight blight" which is depressing. They are much more than that. Bioware if you can't come up with a good storyline for the Wardens then just leave them out of the story. Don't ruin them.

 

Not nearly as much is changing about the Qun as it seems. In fact, that whole gender stuff is deceiving, imo.

 

Krem cannot 'be a man' that does 'womenly things', for example. 'Man' and 'Women' are more roles and titles in the Qun, and it still strictly forbids against deviating from that. The body is purely a vessel to the Qunari, for the Qun (or the other heretical philosophies that the Qun rejects). If the body is born appearing female but is much more capable of Male things, then it is accepted for that. And the person is then called a Man.

 

This is simultaneously one of the most progressive stances in Thedas, while being done from a highly regressive position. Something to both be lauded, and condemned.

 

The Qun still does not consider a 'woman warrior' as a proper thing. Its either a (man) warrior, or a woman who engages in some martial activities for the Qun.

 

Changing your role was always possible, but it was always at the recognition of the collective. And the collective Qun typically does not allow a changing of role.

 

And on another note, Qunari may visit places for relief including sexual pleasure, but this is also at the recognition of the collective. You don't go there just because you personally decide to - you go there because your vessel demands attention or else it loses its peak usefulness. Sex is barely sex, and sexual or romantic relationships are not really a thing.

 

What is happening right now isn't the retcons that people think are happening - Bioware is just shifting the tonal description of the Qunari, and filling in details. We're to think in Origins "Yikes, how could a society work that way?" but gradually be told "Okay, it works in this and that way. Does it interest you now/make you like it even more? Or do you hate it even more/make you disinterested?"

 

The biggest pro of the Qun is that it offers the most belonging that anything in Thedas could provide, even Maker worship. But it seems to have been deliberately designed to often give players pause about that. How much would you sacrifice of yourself and your relationships to others, for the sake of this specific sort of existence? Most of us may deny this sort of thing, but we've also seen ourselves, how there are certainly those people even IRL who crave this sort of life. And especially if you are outright born into it, the vast majority of people would accept it as their truth. The Qunari want to change the world as they regard the Qun as the natural way that Thedas is headed. What I'd like to see is for that to be true, in a sense, while also having the Qunari heavily challenged and fought on what 'Qun' even means, resulting in a widespread compromise, up to even forsaking the name of 'Qun' as something for everyone to adopt.

[SwobyJ]

Nope still in favor of the Mages, as I think the Circle system is ripe for abuse by the jailers Templar Knights. They so wanted to make the Templar's out like poor victims this time around because you were working for the Chantry even if the game was telling your not working for them.


Also Look at how they retacon the kicking out mage children with the Dalish, when in DA2 and DAO children with magic were given to other clans and even taken in by them. They also let city elves into the clans, as well, but in this game they retacon this as bull crud. I still like the Dalish at least make the retacon conform to the previous games.

 

Uh, I thought they always kicked out mages once they had enough? They may have tried to make accommodations for mages to move to other clans, but only to a limited point.
 

Some clans will have not enough mages (up to the 3) and will try to get them from other clans, the city, etc.

 

Others will have too many, and will have to expel mages.

 

I didn't notice and earlier lore being retconned... I don't think DAI was going "Oh these's just this SUPER SUPER surplus of mages in clans so we expel SO MANY of them" but more "Okay, it happens sometimes, and for the good of the clan, we limit mage numbers when we think we have to.", to that individual mage's possible detriment.

[BraveVesperia]

I think finding out more about elven history and Dalish culture - what they believe about the gods, their traditions, even their vallaslin - makes them seem more tragic. It was always rather sad that they lived a harsh life in the wild, clinging to the last scraps of their heritage. Finding out that so much of it is distorted, that symbols to revere their gods were actually slave brands...

 

Sera's not wrong about these revelations making the Dalish 'look like t*ts for running around in the forest', but that just seems sad. There has to be an alternative for them that doesn't mean trying to assimilate into human society and just getting oppressed. They talk about being 'true elves', but they're no closer to their history than the city elves. It all makes me wonder what the future holds for them.

 

I don't think anything with the other factions has struck me deeply. The mage/templar conflict shows sympathetic stories (and stupid ones) on both sides. I've always favoured more freedom with mages, but with some unified centre to keep things organised and more safe. I hope this mage college provides that. I think the templars serve a useful purpose and give 'ordinary people' a better defence against bad mages, but having them in complete control of mages in Circles doesn't work. I've always thought they should be a secular force too, not part of the Chantry. They could assist responsible mages stop the ones abusing their magic, but without being in charge.

 

My opinion on the Grey Wardens hasn't really changed either. They've always been extreme and ruthless. Just look at Sophia Dryden and Avernus in DAO, look at the Wardens in The Calling. The sheer amount of horrendous things the Warden can get away with is proof enough. Slaughtered a whole Dalish clan? Need werewolves to stop the Blight. Preserve the Anvil so that more people can undergo horrible torture? Need golems to stop the Blight. Sacrifice people in a blood ritual? Need power to stop the Blight. Etc etc. I think there's a good reason why the Warden was able to make more ruthless decisions than either Hawke or the Inquisitor.

 

As for the Qun. I've never liked it. I still don't like it. What insight I gain from Iron Bull hasn't changed my perspective there. Especially when he mentions how well the other characters would do under the Qun. Cole and the mages killed? Sera and Varric mind-f*cked into oblivion?  No thanks. I like Sten. I like Iron Bull well enough. I didn't mind Tallis. But not the Qun.

[o Ventus]

He's not wrong though.

 

The taint existed long before there were arch demons, killing them won't stop the Darkspawn. The Grey Wardens need to find the source of the taint and destroy that before they can even think about fighting all the darkspawn hordes underground.

I feel that if it were as simple as "stop the source of the corruption", the Wardens may have done it by now.

[Barquiel]

I wasn't exaclty a chantry fan before...but I guess I'm pro-chantry now because Leliana is my divine.

Other than that, nothing really changed...
The grey wardens were stupid, but they are still necessary until the future blights end.
I still think that the Qunari are a clear and present danger to Thedas.
I always wanted to abolish the circles, and that's exactly what I did (well, Leliana did it).

[Adynata]

It did kind of soften my stance on templars. I'd always been pro-mage freedom before, but this game made me think they really can't be responsible for themselves. I still the think Grey Wardens did the best they could despite the fact they were lied to. Still hate the chantry, maybe moreso.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Game pretty much put me squarly in the pro-circle / templar side.

 

Always had little love for the wardens and seeing what they tried to do sealed my dislike for them.

[Lord Raijin]

Yeah I understood quite well he was using the Chantry as an excuse for his bad behaviors and his own failings in getting taken by the Chantry. The Seekers became a problem once they let their pride take control of what they were supposed to be doing watching the templars or ie Internal affairs officers. This is what happens when people get involed with things and goverments for exmaple. They become to prideful in the end and fail too understand what they had done wrong.

 

Templar's have always been used by the Chantry. The Chantry deliberately burn these peoples minds away just so that they can keep a tight leash on them, and force them to stay loyal by feeding them a highly addictive drug. Didn't you see the withdrawals of that poor templar back in Origins? Inside the dungeon of Arl Howe? Yeah Samson made all the excuse in the world for his bad behaviors, but what are the excuse for the Chantry when they're essentially a drug lord kin pin?

[Lord Raijin]

She more likely than not was manipulated into agreeing to Alexius terms, Alexius had plenty of time to find her buttons and push them. She approached the Inquisition on her own, but by the time you get to Redcliff  the timeline has already been tampered with.

Alexius had an advantage (Since he was a magister and a member of the Venatori) that she could not had rejected otherwise during a desperate situation. Perhabs she was manipulated in agreeing with the terms... but since the mages now belong to Alexius (at the time) they were more protected against the Templar's then ever. It was a security that was now secured.

 

Her mages after all weren't as powerful as one may think. These mages were once part of the Circle of magi. To prevent a riot from getting out of control they prevent mages from learning too much magic. They knew enough that could easily be dispelled by a Templar smite.

[Lord Raijin]

Of course there are Templars who abuse their power.  Knight-Commander Meredith is the most notable example.

 

Regardless of the circumstances, when mages are pushed into a corner, they make bad decisions.  What happens when Templars make bad decision?  A mage suffers.  What happens when a mage makes a bad decision?  Everyone suffers.  It's the lesser of two evils in my opinion.  Uldred's actions resulted in countless lives being lost and good mages being coerced into becoming abominations -- they too were killed eventually.  Orsino sacrificed everything he stood for and became a monster that killed god knows how many people on both sides.  Had the Inquisitor not intervened, Fiona's actions would have strengthened the Venatori, and Corypheus by proxy.

 

How did the Templars get taken over in Inquisition?  The lyrium in their blood was corrupted and their higher-ups were mind controlled by Corypheus, which lead to further corruption in the Order.  Samson was the only one that I knew of who actively volunteered for it.  Templars volunteer to ingest lyrium to protect the mages from each other, from the people, and vice versa.  There were certainly issues with the Templar Order before the Mage Rebellion, but they serve a necessary function.

 

That is not a fair assumption. When a Knight-commander makes a bad decision everyone suffers, not just mages... mundanes alike. Look at Meredith for a prime example. It wasn't mages that was suffering... it was an entire city. She turned Kirkwall into a battleground for her own ambition.

 

 Knight-Commander Martel lust for power almost cost the life of the divine, and so many other grand Clerics. You thought Orsino was bad when he was harboring a psychotic apostate (Quentin) .... (coughcough) Martel and Frenic (coughcough)

[Dabrikishaw]

No. Whatever opinions about all the factions In this franchise I had, I still have.

 

Mages: Still want freedom

 

Templars: Still neutral on

 

Chantry:  Leliana's Chantry > Old Chantry

 

Seekers: Disband I guess. I never really cared about them either way

 

Qun: Still hate.

 

Tevinter: Still hate

 

Grey Wardens: Still like

 

Orlais: Gaspard as sole ruler with Fereldan peace

 

Dalish: Still dislike

[Lebanese Dude]

Everything changed.

 

I have never loved the plot as much as I have after DAI. DAO started the questions, DA2 added more, and DAI finally saw some questions answered.

I still have questions, but I'm started to see the bigger picture.

 

That includes changed perspectives regarding the various factions.

[PorcelynDoll]

I prefer the Templars now and I sort of hate the Dalish. I also don't know what to think of the Grey Wardens anymore.

[Lebanese Dude]

I prefer the Templars now and I sort of hate the Dalish. I also don't know what to think of the Grey Wardens anymore.

 

Working as intended really.

 

Templars were humanized in DAI. Dalish were revealed to be completely clueless. Grey Wardens are in disarray.

[Daerog]

Not much changed for me, other than liking the Chantry and Templars more.

Also, while I never cared much for the dalish, I kind of pity them now given the revelations, they messed themselves up more than the humans did.

Still think they should just assimilate into Andrastian culture.

It was great being able to make Viv the Divine.

The Wardens going bonkers didn't change my opinion much, The Calling showed how vulnerable they can be to extreme thoughts. Still, a necessary faction until the darkspawn are removed, then the wardens can be removed.

[RepHope]

Templar's have always been used by the Chantry. The Chantry deliberately burn these peoples minds away just so that they can keep a tight leash on them, and force them to stay loyal by feeding them a highly addictive drug. Didn't you see the withdrawals of that poor templar back in Origins? Inside the dungeon of Arl Howe? Yeah Samson made all the excuse in the world for his bad behaviors, but what are the excuse for the Chantry when they're essentially a drug lord kin pin?

No they don't. Templars take lyrium because they need it to nullify magic. It's common knowledge that you'll probably become lyrium addled and that lyrium is addictive, nobody forces anyone to become a Templar. People become one of their own free will.

[The Baconer]

Still think they should just assimilate into Andrastian culture.

 

Why?

I mean, yeah, their culture and ideologies are now confirmed to be 100% bullshit, but Andrastian culture has literally nothing to offer them.

[IanPolaris]

No they don't. Templars take lyrium because they need it to nullify magic. It's common knowledge that you'll probably become lyrium addled and that lyrium is addictive, nobody forces anyone to become a Templar. People become one of their own free will.

 

This is another retcon

[hellbiter88]

Sadly no, I thought everyone was acting like idiots. And I didn't care for the deterioration of the Grey Warden order, either.

 

 

Idiots.

 

I'll be interested to see where this whole mess leads, though.

[ashlover mark 2]

Nah, My outlook remains the same of everyone. Nothing that happened in Inqusition shocked me when it came to the factions. My stance on Templars didn't change because I already knew there were good men and women in the order; but I still see the order as a relic that either requires reform or disbandment. My views on Mages stayed the same because I already knew they were a cornered minority constantly being pushed to the edge, and would almost always resort to extreme actions to avoid a brutal death, living as a prisoner, living as a fugitive or life as a Tranquil; but I still see mages as people who should be free just like anyone else. My outlook on Grey Wardens hasn't changed because I already knew the Wardens weren't knights in shining armour who could do no wrong. They are battle hardened soldiers fighting in an endless war, useing any means necessary, even if it means commiting atrocities to protect the world; but I still think until the last Archdemon falls they are Thedas' only hope against the Blights.

[SkyKing]

I didn't know the inquisition had anything to do with mages or templars.  In the DAI I played, you have a stupid little skirmish between generic NPC templars and mages and you kill them all in hinterlands. 

 

Then you either help templars or mages, and the other ones become possessed by red lyrium and corpheus. So they are never fighting eachother again, atleast on a mage vs templar capacity. It's a corphyeus vs everybody else.  Nobody ever talks about the future of mages/templars, the reason for their original fighting, and what currently will be going on.  

 

THen you have 90% of the time finding letters on dead bodies to deliver auntie annas vibrating banana to the oak tree at the end of the zone.  

 

If you skip that stuff then you have corypheus throwing a tantrum, you fight him, he dies, game over.  

 

What inquisition?  What templar/mage war?  The little skirmish in hinterlands?