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[Daerog]

Why?

I mean, yeah, their culture and ideologies are now confirmed to be 100% bullshit, but Andrastian culture has literally nothing to offer them.

You mean other than a (possible) stable home? They are currently unwanted, hostile nomads, they would at least lose that.

Alienages, yes, but they also wouldn't be so bad if the city elves also tossed aside their victim identities and encouraged their people to grow and venture out instead being isolated and staying in the alienage.

Although, the assimilated dalish could see about just joining rural towns or whatever, don't have to live in the cities.

Unless Solas does something, they will die out and at least their knowldge and memories could be recorded by Andrastian scholars if they join the dominant culture.


Just my thoughts, I think the Andrastian culture has more to offer than their current way of life.

However, their faith is opposed to this, since they would no longer be real elves, so that would be the major downside for them and I see this as the only reason not to assimilate.

[blahblahblah]

You mean other than a (possible) stable home? They are currently unwanted, hostile nomads, they would at least lose that.

Alienages, yes, but they also wouldn't be so bad if the city elves also tossed aside their victim identities and encouraged their people to grow and venture out instead being isolated and staying in the alienage.

Although, the assimilated dalish could see about just joining rural towns or whatever, don't have to live in the cities.

Unless Solas does something, they will die out and at least their knowldge and memories could be recorded by Andrastian scholars if they join the dominant culture.


Just my thoughts, I think the Andrastian culture has more to offer than their current way of life.

However, their faith is opposed to this, since they would no longer be real elves, so that would be the major downside for them and I see this as the only reason not to assimilate.

So you prefer elves to be subjugated in Andrastian culture were they were assimilated in Alienages treated like dirt and prone to pogroms. WOW that's a great idea.

[Daerog]

So you prefer elves to be subjugated in Andrastian culture were they were assimilated in Alienages treated like dirt and prone to pogroms. WOW that's a great idea.

I get the feeling you didn't fully read my post.

Anyway, elves don't have to be in alienages.

Everyone that isn't noble gets treated like dirt, dalish are not immune to this, they are just mobile alienages. At least if an alienage gets raided people hear about it, if a clan gets killed off one may only hear of it in a boast at a tavern. Besides, they can live in a village, don't have to live in an alienage. Things would have worked out better in Fereldan if they openned up and didn't isolate themselves from their neighbors.

It would be better (my opinion, not objective truth) if they connect with Andrastian culture, one already openned up to Chantry scholars. Edit: if the PnP is canon, another clan sets up an annual festival near a human town, which the town participates in, so being tolerable neighbors is not impossible.

[blahblahblah]

I get the feeling you didn't fully read my post.

Anyway, elves don't have to be in alienages.

Everyone that isn't noble gets treated like dirt, dalish are not immune to this, they are just mobile alienages. At least if an alienage gets raided people hear about it, if a clan gets killed off one may only hear of it in a boast at a tavern. Besides, they can live in a village, don't have to live in an alienage. Things would have worked out better in Fereldan if they openned up and didn't isolate themselves from their neighbors.

It would be better (my opinion, not objective truth) if they connect with Andrastian culture, one already openned up to Chantry scholars.

If the society accepts them but you know this is Dragon Age, elves are treated like dirt everywhere. The only job that is open to them is to be a servant to a human lord. Unless Leliana became a Divine or you support Briala or make her reconcile with Celine then elves are treated better .

[Daerog]

If the society accepts them but you know this is Dragon Age, elves are treated like dirt everywhere. The only job that is open to them is to be a servant to a human lord. Unless Leliana became a Divine then elves are treated better.

Zevran's father was a lumberjack.

We meet an elven healer in Redcliffe. People are rude, but she has her own place and profession, and not all treat her bad. Treat her better than they would a Chasind.

Some elves in Denerim work at the docks, but they do get harassed.

Elves can live in towns where there are no nobles.

An elf widow owns a house in the hinterlands.


They are not limited to servants. It is common, yes, but not the only option.

They aren't the only ones treated poorly, they can do better making more contacts. Staying isolated in alienages or clans keeps them easy targets for harassment.

This is off topic a bit, so to get it back on topic:

My opinions on city elves didn't change much, but I did like Sera, didn't always agree, but it was nice to get her view in Inquisition on elves needing to drop the victim identities and break out of their self imposed isolation.

[blahblahblah]

Zevran's father was a lumberjack.

We meet an elven healer in Redcliffe. People are rude, but she has her own place and profession, and not all treat her bad. Treat her better than they would a Chasind.

Some elves in Denerim work at the docks, but they do get harassed.

Elves can live in towns where there are no nobles.

An elf widow owns a house in the hinterlands.


They are not limited to servants. It is common, yes, but not the only option.

They aren't the only ones treated poorly, they can do better making more contacts. Staying isolated in alienages or clans keeps them easy targets for harassment.

This is off topic a bit, so to get it back on topic:

My opinions on city elves didn't change much, but I did like Sera, didn't always agree, but it was nice to get her view in Inquisition on elves needing to drop the victim identities and break out of their self imposed isolation.

That's the point,  they need to serve someone. They can't make businesses on their own, Alarith on Denerim Alienage is not allowed to open his shop in the Market Place so he place his shop hidden in the Alienage. They not not allowed to own businesses on cities and Sera was raised by a wealthy noblewoman. City Elves are quartered in Alienages in the cities.

[JoltDealer]

That is not a fair assumption. When a Knight-commander makes a bad decision everyone suffers, not just mages... mundanes alike. Look at Meredith for a prime example. It wasn't mages that was suffering... it was an entire city. She turned Kirkwall into a battleground for her own ambition.

 

 Knight-Commander Martel lust for power almost cost the life of the divine, and so many other grand Clerics. You thought Orsino was bad when he was harboring a psychotic apostate (Quentin) .... (coughcough) Martel and Frenic (coughcough)

 

Kirkwall turning into a battleground was just as much the Circle's fault.  If anything, it was more so caused by the actions of one mage, Anders, who made a bad decision and blew up the Kirkwall Chantry.  It may have been the final straw for both sides, but the high tensions were arguably the fault of both sides.

 

But back to the discussion of collateral damages.  Merdith's actions may have indirectly caused some to suffer, but Mages are usually more direct and lethal.  How many died at the Ferelden Circle at the hands of Uldred and his abominations?  How many were killed by various blood mages looking to destroy the Templars?  How many were killed by Anders blowing up the Chantry?  How many were killed by Orsino?  Like I said, the Templars are the lesser of two evils in this respect.  Mages have killed more people, mundane, magical, or otherwise than Templars have.

[The Baconer]

You mean other than a (possible) stable home? They are currently unwanted, hostile nomads, they would at least lose that.

 

Considering the variety of conditions that can define these stable homes, that really doesn't amount to much.

 

 

Alienages, yes, but they also wouldn't be so bad if the city elves also tossed aside their victim identities and encouraged their people to grow and venture out instead being isolated and staying in the alienage.

 

... Like the Dalish?

 

Also, come on.

 

 

things would have worked out better in Fereldan if they openned up and didn't isolate themselves from their neighbors.

 

Come on.

 

Most of this just comes across as victim-blaming. Not to mention, your suggestions amount to "they can settle for a life of menial labor while enduring varying amounts of harassment, depending on how isolated they are from larger society".

 

I mean, that is a really, really poor sale.

[blahblahblah]

Kirkwall turning into a battleground was just as much the Circle's fault.  If anything, it was more so caused by the actions of one mage, Anders, who made a bad decision and blew up the Kirkwall Chantry.  It may have been the final straw for both sides, but the high tensions were arguably the fault of both sides.

 

But back to the discussion of collateral damages.  Merdith's actions may have indirectly caused some to suffer, but Mages are usually more direct and lethal.  How many died at the Ferelden Circle at the hands of Uldred and his abominations?  How many were killed by various blood mages looking to destroy the Templars?  How many were killed by Anders blowing up the Chantry?  How many were killed by Orsino?  Like I said, the Templars are the lesser of two evils in this respect.  Mages have killed more people, mundane, magical, or otherwise than Templars have.

Templars kill, rape and pillage in the Hinterlands on their own volition. Saying that Templars are lesser evil is just moot. Meredith can execute Anders but she chose to annul the Circle instead in order to satisfy her hate towards the mages.

[Daerog]

Considering the variety of conditions that can define these stable homes, that really doesn't amount to much.



... Like the Dalish?

Also, come on.



Come on.

Most of this just comes across as victim-blaming. Not to mention, most of your suggestions amount to "they can settle for a life of menial labor while enduring varying amounts of harassment, depending on how isolated they are from larger society".

I mean, that is a really, really poor sale.

You don't agree, that's fine.

I don't think the dalish are better off as they are, I see their current state as great hardship, just like non-dalish elves deal with great hardship. I just see non-dalish elves having a better future than the dalish.

I can see I'm pretty poor with arguing my side, so... ya, can't think of any major arguments to try to change your opinion.

[Darkly Tranquil]

You don't agree, that's fine.

I don't think the dalish are better off as they are, I see their current state as great hardship, just like non-dalish elves deal with great hardship. I just see non-dalish elves having a better future than the dalish.
 

 

At least the Dalish are free and are masters of their own destiny and not the playthings of humans.

[Daerog]

At least the Dalish are free and are masters of their own destiny and not the playthings of humans.

That freedom is an illusion. A band of mercenaries could say the same. Sera looks pretty free and a master of her own destiny to me. Some dalish probably don't feel free and masters of their destiny, some do leave the dalish.

The dalish are kicked around by humans, which is why they are nomads. Their way of life is shaped by humans, not entirely, but they are not independent from the outside cultures.

Although, I'm sure most Dalish believe they are free, another reason other than their faith which keeps them on their current path in life, which is understandable.

[Cainhurst Crow]

It made me go back to previous dragon age games and re-evaluate some of my long standing outlooks. The biggest being the templars, circles, qun, and grey wardens.

 

Grey wardens are probably the biggest one of the lot, since now a lot of events from the previous game can be see as hints about the orders more negative qualities. Secrecy is made paramount to the wardens, from the sacrifice they make to the cost of their duty, everything is so damn guarded as to make them feel like a cult. Duncan shanking Jory over backing out of the ritual, the secret about being tainted, the calling, and the archdemon sacrifice, and the ability to recruit anyone no matter the crime they've done, seems less heroic now that I know how far they take their "anything goes" philosophy of combating darkspawn threats.

 

Kinda makes me re-evaluate whether I let bethany join the wardens in my DA2 games.

 

The qun seems less oppressive then I thought it was, so long as you aren't a mage or heretic. Its still one of the most oppressive systems out there, but compatible to other medieval societies around it. Badmouth someone in fereldan and you might end up imprisoned, tortured, and forced to recant your opinion assuming you aren't executed. Badmouth someone in the qun lands, and you could face a similar fate with brainwashing instead of execution. Both are a reminder that these are far from the civil times we live in today.

 

I always thought kirkwall was the outlier, not the norm for templars and mages, and it turns out I was more or less right. Vivienne made me think about the mages actions, how poorly timed they were indeed given the events surrounding their move for uprising and calls for reform, and made me think a lot less of them. The circles I feel work better then I thought they did before, and I think less reform than I previously thought is needed for them to work in society.

 

My opinion of the dalish being awful was more or less reinforced, though now this extends to the ancient elves as well. I also lost some of my love for the city elves because solas is right, they are trying to live in the past when they should live in the present, and work towards the future. Everything is backwards with the elves that it makes me feel more sorry for them then I have ever felt in all 3 of the games.

[Daerog]

I thought it was interesting that Vivienne said a mage only needed the permission of the First Enchanter to live outside a tower.

I was like, "Really? That's it? Just have to be a law abiding, model citizen or at least be on good terms with your superior?" Vivienne made the Circles sound not so bad to live in, even a great life for some if not most mages.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I thought it was interesting that Vivienne said a mage only needed the permission of the First Enchanter to live outside a tower.

I was like, "Really? That's it? Just have to be a law abiding, model citizen or at least be on good terms with your superior?" Vivienne made the Circles sound not so bad to live in, even a great life for some if not most mages.

 

I highly doubt that anything Vivienne says can be taken as representative of the experiences of the majority of mages. She seems to be very much the exception to the rule.

[Icy Magebane]

Not really... for the most part everyone behaved as expected, although the Wardens were a bit more extreme than I would have thought.  Just a bit, though.  I guess there were a few revelations about the ancient elves that I didn't see coming, but that's it.

 

edit:  Actually, I just remembered something... I had no idea that the Tevinters were so homophobic.  That actually surprised me a great deal, but I suppose it makes some sense in the context of their culture and the need to create powerful mages through arranged marriages.  In contrast to that, the Qunari are apparently a lot more accepting of such things than I thought... so I guess there were things that I didn't expect, after all.

 

Oh yeah, and I also didn't realize that magic could somehow change a person's gender?  It was mentioned briefly in a conversation with Krem and Iron Bull, but... I had no idea such things were possible.  It's Thedas though, so I probably should have expected it.

[MiyuEmi]

Forgot to add that it also changed my view on Grey Wardens.  They seem to be, for the most part, above reproach, above the law.  They can save the lives of murderers by conscripting them and no one is allowed to question it.  Granted the joining might kill them, but the power of a faction of any kind to simply say, I want this person, give them to me, no questions asked, is really scary.  Then again, they exist for one reason really, the blight, because without magic, which everyone seems to think is wholly bad, there is no way to survive the killing of the archdemon so the grey warden is a sacrificial lamb.  They did well with the politics/factions in the game, but I'll stick largely with what I said earlier.  All of the elven lore was just something you picked up off a statute or from a piece of paper, but which, up until this point, was lore of something long forgotten.  Now that it's not as forgotten as so many thought, it will be interesting to see how much more of the lore from previous games ties into the reveal we had in DAI.

[Daerog]

I highly doubt that anything Vivienne says can be taken as representative of the experiences of the majority of mages. She seems to be very much the exception to the rule.

All the mages we meet seem to be exceptions to the rule.

I believe the best representative for the average Circle mage was Finn. Yes, he had doting parents unlike most mages, but him just wanting to live and be left alone sounded quite normal to me.

[The Baconer]

I don't think the dalish are better off as they are, I see their current state as great hardship, just like non-dalish elves deal with great hardship. I just see non-dalish elves having a better future than the dalish.

 

Now, this is something that we can definitely agree on. I wasn't necessarily promoting or agreeing with the Dalish lifestyle, but I do understand why they might choose to continue on in their current state. An "assimilated" life in society, at the present, just holds nothing for them, and that's a shame.

[Virgulec]

I don't know, this game's underlying meta is "change", at least to me it is. Either you go against the grain and invoke change, or go with the flow and give the premise of change. They forced us to take a hard look at the borders of magic(Mages; All of them), intentions(Templars, Orlais), rights(Elves, Avvar) and duty(Wardens, Nobles, Politics). Now finishing a play-through with templars as allies and... it's nothing more than control, not peace, protection or safety as it is sold.

[Melyanna]

I thought it was interesting that Vivienne said a mage only needed the permission of the First Enchanter to live outside a tower.

I was like, "Really? That's it? Just have to be a law abiding, model citizen or at least be on good terms with your superior?" Vivienne made the Circles sound not so bad to live in, even a great life for some if not most mages.

 

I think it was great way for the game to show different point of views: Vivienne sees the circle as something good, because she had the best possible experience of it. She worked hard for her status, of course, but she was also lucky that she didn't end up in one of the worse circles ("worse" in the way they oppress the mages).

Compare her experience to that of Anders, or to some of the things you hear from other mages and read around, and there really is a big contrast.

 

I think it's a pretty smart way to show us the good and the bad side of the Circle, and also to let us understand how different personal experiences can shape our ideals and beliefs.

[Daerog]

I miss Finn. He was a powerful mage who was just a nerd and wanted to geek out over rare books. Even the Templars liked him and let him do whatever.

[Paladin Ryan]

Templars: Always liked what I perceived as the true templars, hated the extremists; glad the true templars can have a time to shine if you side with them and it cemented my fondness for the group as a whole.

 

Grey Wardens: We get to see their darker side. I still respect them and believe them ultimately good, but dislike how they let duty blind them to all else sometimes.

 

Orlesians: I gained a fair amount of respect. We had only seen and heard mostly negative impressions before. I loath their politics but the people as a whole, especially the soldiers, I now have more respect for.

 

Qunari: I hate them. A lot. I was okay with them before. But between Bull's situation and just how they act... I hate their "Our way is the only way" mentality.

 

Tevinter: Like them A LOT more. Dorian and Calpernia in particular earned that respect. It showed that there are well intentioned and good people despite the negative image. Their society is flawed but I don't instantly hate everything tevinter now.

 

Ferelden: No change other than perhaps disappointment at their seemingly minimal support/involvement

 

Rebel Mages: Respect their desire for freedom as before, believe they chose a horrible time to push for it and that they would have been better off pushing harder for circle reforms to ensure fair treatment of mages and more rules regarding the templars. To be fair they were sort of in a corner and many on all sides were pushing for war.

 

Tranquil: HUGE change. They seem way more alive. Like, while they lack emotions as before, they have much more free thought than was represented. I still hate the Rite in general but at least it seems like it COULD be preferable to death. Hard to say though. As I said not a fan of it.

 

Chantry: Now closely mirrors my irl views on religion. The faith is good, the organization is awful. Its leaders could rarely see beyond themselves with the exception of a few.

 

Those are the ones that most come to mind. 

[Rawgrim]

It made me ditch the lore for good. When the game designers ignores it, so will I.

[Joe_S]

I don't know, this game's underlying meta is "change", at least to me it is. Either you go against the grain and invoke change, or go with the flow and give the premise of change. They forced us to take a hard look at the borders of magic(Mages; All of them), intentions(Templars, Orlais), rights(Elves, Avvar) and duty(Wardens, Nobles, Politics). Now finishing a play-through with templars as allies and... it's nothing more than control, not peace, protection or safety as it is sold.

 

This is also my feeling after 2 play-throughs of DA:I.  What we're seeing here is a set of societies that have been set in their ways for hundreds of years, and things that might have started out well with good reasons and intentions have been manipulated/corrupted/politicized over the years into rigid structures that are doing more harm that good.  Makes Justina's idea of shaking things up with an Inquisition seem more far-seeing that it first appears.  Things needed to change, and it becomes obvious over the course of the three games (10 years) that change from within wasn't going to work.  

 

I'm now really interested to see the impact the Inquisition has on the north -- you know there are folks that are going to look to the south and say "if things can change there, why not here?"  But I do hope that once we have a story (game) or two set the in north, we get another one in the south to see  what the impact of the Inquisition has been.  Or better yet, a story or two or three that covers the whole of Thedas and brings it all together.