191 réponses à ce sujet

[Melyanna]

I don't know, this game's underlying meta is "change", at least to me it is. Either you go against the grain and invoke change, or go with the flow and give the premise of change. They forced us to take a hard look at the borders of magic(Mages; All of them), intentions(Templars, Orlais), rights(Elves, Avvar) and duty(Wardens, Nobles, Politics). Now finishing a play-through with templars as allies and... it's nothing more than control, not peace, protection or safety as it is sold.

 

 

This is also my feeling after 2 play-throughs of DA:I.  What we're seeing here is a set of societies that have been set in their ways for hundreds of years, and things that might have started out well with good reasons and intentions have been manipulated/corrupted/politicized over the years into rigid structures that are doing more harm that good.  Makes Justina's idea of shaking things up with an Inquisition seem more far-seeing that it first appears.  Things needed to change, and it becomes obvious over the course of the three games (10 years) that change from within wasn't going to work.  

 

I'm now really interested to see the impact the Inquisition has on the north -- you know there are folks that are going to look to the south and say "if things can change there, why not here?"  But I do hope that once we have a story (game) or two set the in north, we get another one in the south to see  what the impact of the Inquisition has been.  Or better yet, a story or two or three that covers the whole of Thedas and brings it all together.

 

These are very good points. And I like the idea of some kind of "zoom out" approach where we see the impact of Inquisition on the North and rest of Thedas, and then a "zoom in" again to where it all began.

[RepHope]

If the society accepts them but you know this is Dragon Age, elves are treated like dirt everywhere. The only job that is open to them is to be a servant to a human lord. Unless Leliana became a Divine or you support Briala or make her reconcile with Celine then elves are treated better .

The only way I see the elves getting their own home again is if such a state accepts Andrastian presence. I could see Andrastian City Elves and Dalish Elves co-existing in such a state, but any attempts by the elves to recreate the Dales (I.e. No chantrys allowed) will only end in everyone steamrolling them again.

[JoltDealer]

Templars kill, rape and pillage in the Hinterlands on their own volition. Saying that Templars are lesser evil is just moot. Meredith can execute Anders but she chose to annul the Circle instead in order to satisfy her hate towards the mages.

 

I'm not saying Templars are innocent, but they are the lesser of the two evils in my opinion.  Blood Mages kill and sacrifice on a regular basis.  As far as major events go, mages have wracked up the higher body count.  As for Meredith, she had been corrupted and driven insane by the red lyrium idol.  Ordering the Circle be annulled was not the decision of a rational person.  Also, who else stood against her?  Reasonable and dedicated Templars like Cullen.

[LobselVith8]

I'm not saying Templars are innocent, but they are the lesser of the two evils in my opinion.  Blood Mages kill and sacrifice on a regular basis.  As far as major events go, mages have wracked up the higher body count.

 

We have had mages and templars both committing horrible deeds over the centuries, and I don't think it's possible to quantify which group has done worse, nor do I think it really matters in the context of this current crisis. The horrors committed by a Magister like Danarius doesn't change that we have Merrill as a good blood mage who helps people in need, nor does the heinous acts Alrik and his cohorts committed against mages reflect on Thrask or Keran who both cared about the people who were hurt by Meredith's dictatorship, and wanted mages and templars to work together.

 

As for Meredith, she had been corrupted and driven insane by the red lyrium idol.  Ordering the Circle be annulled was not the decision of a rational person.  Also, who else stood against her?  Reasonable and dedicated Templars like Cullen.

 

Only when the Champion's life is specifically threatened, not when Meredith ordered the executions of an entire population of men, women, and children for the actions of a single person who was standing right in front of her.

[JoltDealer]

We have had mages and templars both committing horrible deeds over the centuries, and I don't think it's possible to quantify which group has done worse, nor do I think it really matters in the context of this current crisis. The horrors committed by a Magister like Danarius doesn't change that we have Merrill as a good blood mage who helps people in need, nor does the heinous acts Alrik and his cohorts committed against mages reflect on Thrask or Keran who both cared about the people who were hurt by Meredith's dictatorship, and wanted mages and templars to work together.

 

How is it not quantifiable?  There are far more examples of a mage causing a disaster than a Templar.  Uldred, Quentin, Anders, Orsino, Fiona, Alexius, Erimond, Calpernia, and Corypheus are all names of mages who caused suffering, death, disaster, or all of the above.  As for Templars, I can think of two names -- Meredith and Samson.  Even Merrill, your example of a good blood mage, inadvertently caused the possession and death of Keeper Marethari, which in turn can (possibly) lead to the death of her entire clan as well.  Templars rarely outright kill a non-mage.  In fact, they typically only kill mages who are either blood mages or apostates.  Usually, most are made tranquil.

 

Only when the Champion's life is specifically threatened, not when Meredith ordered the executions of an entire population of men, women, and children for the actions of a single person who was standing right in front of her.

 

That is a valid point and I will concede on this point.  That being said, he questions whether or not the Kirkwall Circle should be annulled should you side with the Templars in DA2.  He points out that what happened in Ferelden was far worse and (potentially) some mages were saved.

[LobselVith8]

I get the feeling you didn't fully read my post.

Anyway, elves don't have to be in alienages.

Everyone that isn't noble gets treated like dirt, dalish are not immune to this, they are just mobile alienages. At least if an alienage gets raided people hear about it, if a clan gets killed off one may only hear of it in a boast at a tavern. Besides, they can live in a village, don't have to live in an alienage. Things would have worked out better in Fereldan if they openned up and didn't isolate themselves from their neighbors.

It would be better (my opinion, not objective truth) if they connect with Andrastian culture, one already openned up to Chantry scholars. Edit: if the PnP is canon, another clan sets up an annual festival near a human town, which the town participates in, so being tolerable neighbors is not impossible.

 

Well, the Dalish are nomadic as a matter of survival, considering their religion was outlawed by the Chantry, templars pursue the clans for their mages, and they are threatened with violence to convert or run off when they stay too long in one region by human lords or lynch mobs (which is why Clan Lavellan traveled between the territorial boundaries in the Free Marches, since human lords were less inclined to attack them in fear of provoking one of the neighboring city-states). As the codex reads, Lavellan's clan "travel along the borders of each city-state's territory, where Free March rulers will be less inclined to attack them, for fear of accidentally provoking neighboring cities."

 

As for the Andrastian elves, we hear about what happens to the elves who try to live with humans, or even outside the Alienage, as hahren Sarethia notes: "But don't be so anxious to start tearing down the walls and picking fights with the guards. They keep out more than they keep in. We don't have to live here, you know. Sometimes a family gets a good break, and they buy a house in the docks, or the outskirts of town. If they're lucky, they come back to the alienage after the looters have burned their house down. The unlucky ones just go to the paupers' field."

[Hawklyn Starblade]

He's not wrong though.

 

The taint existed long before there were arch demons, killing them won't stop the Darkspawn. The Grey Wardens need to find the source of the taint and destroy that before they can even think about fighting all the darkspawn hordes underground.

 

Wouldn't the source of the taint be the unacounted for magisters of Corpheus' lil happy go lucky crew?. Wouldn't suprise me somewhere in the deep the others were still alive....

[Aramintai]

How is it not quantifiable?  There are far more examples of a mage causing a disaster than a Templar.  Uldred, Quentin, Anders, Orsino, Fiona, Alexius, Erimond, Calpernia, and Corypheus are all names of mages who caused suffering, death, disaster, or all of the above.  As for Templars, I can think of two names -- Meredith and Samson.  Even Merrill, your example of a good blood mage, inadvertently caused the possession and death of Keeper Marethari, which in turn can (possibly) lead to the death of her entire clan as well.  Templars rarely outright kill a non-mage.  In fact, they typically only kill mages who are either blood mages or apostates.  Usually, most are made tranquil.

What about all those nameless templars who abused their power by torturing and abusing innocent mages like the real Cole? No one talks about them, because it was all swept under the rug. How many mages were mistreated on daily basis as part of the norm by templars standards? I think there were enough of them for mages to reach a boiling point that warranted a rebellion. Also, nowhere in the lore or games have I seen a magical destruction big enough as even one war between common non-mage people. Recent example - look at the war between Celene and Gaspard in the Dales.

[JoltDealer]

What about all those nameless templars who abused their power by torturing and abusing innocent mages like the real Cole? No one talks about them, because it was all swept under the rug. How many mages were mistreated on daily basis as part of the norm by templars standards? I think there were enough of them for mages to reach a boiling point that warranted a rebellion. Also, nowhere in the lore or games have I seen a magical destruction big enough as even one war between common non-mage people. Recent example - look at the war between Celene and Gaspard in the Dales.

 

I'm not saying those Templars don't exist.  Insofar as pure destruction is concerned, the mages have caused more damage and death over the course of the Dragon Age series when held in comparison to the Templar Order.  Not all Templars mistreat mages, just like how not all mages are blood mages.  The Rebellion was the fault of both sides.

 

As for mundane people causing more destruction, you're right, but that's not what I'm discussing here.  This thread is asking if Inquisition changed your opinion on any of the factions.  I said it did, regarding the Templars vs. Mages debate.  As valid as your point may be, it has no impact on the casualties caused by either of the two factions.

[LobselVith8]

How is it not quantifiable?  There are far more examples of a mage causing a disaster than a Templar.  Uldred, Quentin, Anders, Orsino, Fiona, Alexius, Erimond, Calpernia, and Corypheus are all names of mages who caused suffering, death, disaster, or all of the above.  As for Templars, I can think of two names -- Meredith and Samson.

 

While we have centuries of history we aren't privy to, and we have Seekers and templars who have crossed the line. And there are a number of templars who crossed the line who we are privy to: Alrik and his cohorts, who were using the Rite of Tranquility to rape women, and even using it against mages who already passed their Harrowing, like Karl; we have Karras, who raped at least one mage by using the threat of the Rite of Tranquility, and even makes a thinly veiled rape threat against female Hawke; we have a historical Rivaini templar, Ser Mhemet, who participated in the Exalted March because he simply wanted to kill elves; we have Meredith's templars who tortured a child of the clan with fire because they wanted to gather information about Feynriel, and use racist language when they confront the hunters of the Sabrae Clan; we have Meredith's death squad, who were willing to kill a civilian because she fed her tortured mage cousin. We also have the templars who sided with Corypheus.

 

It's hardly as though there are simply two bad apples in the whole bunch.

 

Even Merrill, your example of a good blood mage, inadvertently caused the possession and death of Keeper Marethari, which in turn can (possibly) lead to the death of her entire clan as well.

 

Merrill didn't force Marethari to free Audacity from the totem; the Keeper did that, and she alone is responsible for her own actions. I'm not going to blame Merrill for the actions of other grown adults.

 

Templars rarely outright kill a non-mage.  In fact, they typically only kill mages who are either blood mages or apostates.  Usually, most are made tranquil.

 

It's never stated anywhere that templars rarely kill non-mages. We know that templars participated in the Exalted March of the Dales, and at least one only joined simply because he wanted to kill elves - "Ser Mhemet, a Rivaini templar, fought in the Exalted March on the Dales for one reason: his love of killing elves, which pushed him to so many victories, the Chantry elevated him to Anointed after his death. To this day, Halamshiral elves consider his name a curse."

 

In fact, we ran into a few examples where templars cross the line, like the templars who tried to kill a child named Aneirin because they claimed he was maleficar, even though this was completely bogus. There is also the story about the Magnificent D'Sims; he was "was an elven 'healer' who 'cured' hayseeds of nonexistent ailments. Even though it was all a scam, the templars declared him apostate and took off his head. Oddly, his staff turned out to be genuinely enchanted." D'Sims is the example of a charlatan who was killed by the templars because he was pretending to heal people.

 

That is a valid point and I will concede on this point.  That being said, he questions whether or not the Kirkwall Circle should be annulled should you side with the Templars in DA2.  He points out that what happened in Ferelden was far worse and (potentially) some mages were saved.

 

Questioning it doesn't really help all the people who are innocent of Anders' actions and being killed because the templars are following orders.

[Draining Dragon]

No not really.  There is never any justification to curb someone else freedom out of fear.
 
I don't care for groupthink that supports that fear.  Its about personal responsability that few people are willing to take.  Hiding behind groupthink is easyer and thus popular.  Goverments / psychopaths and power craving personalities thrive of groupthink so they can proclaim to protect.  This "policing" nonsence is also so long going on it is hard too see through, most people are accustumed to it that policing themselves or put in a different way taking responsability, seems absurd.

You seem to be making the mistake of comparing real-world groups to mages. There really isn't much of a parallel.

[RepHope]

You seem to be making the mistake of comparing real-world groups to mages. There really isn't much of a parallel.

This. Fear of mages is not unjustified. Even non-possesed, non-blood magic using mages wield terrible power. One Mage could set a city on fire in a burst of anger, Anders in fact did just that and he didn't use blood magic or Justices power to do it. Wynne set a kids hair on fire. These people do pose a threat to others, and their emotions can drive them to seek power, riches, whatever they want, and it's doubtful most mundanes can stand up to them.

[Ryzaki]

I've always been pro circle.

 

DAI didn't change that.

 

Did make me lmao at the dalish though.\

 

Though on the rape and abuse tangents. If you think mages didn't rape as well I've got a bridge to sell you...

[IanPolaris]

This. Fear of mages is not unjustified. Even non-possesed, non-blood magic using mages wield terrible power. One Mage could set a city on fire in a burst of anger, Anders in fact did just that and he didn't use blood magic or Justices power to do it. Wynne set a kids hair on fire. These people do pose a threat to others, and their emotions can drive them to seek power, riches, whatever they want, and it's doubtful most mundanes can stand up to them.

 

Someone that would trade their liberty for their security deserve neither.

[RepHope]

Someone that would trade their liberty for their security deserve neither.

The average mundane isn't trading any of their liberties at all. The mages are but how many Mage kids do you think would survive the superstitious peasant mobs? What of the mundanes who would be powerless against any Mage no matter the degree of training such a Mage might posses?

[FiveThreeTen]

The Templars and Mages had a more balanced portrayal, I guess.

 

I mean, the only noteworthy example of a Templar I remember in Origin was Cullen trapped in his violet prison, and his suggestion of "wiping out the remaining mages". I mean, man, I got that you are traumatized, but you're clearly not in full capacity of making a decision.

In DA2, you have Meredith.

 

I feel mages portrayal have been more nuanced througout the serie. You have extremists (Anders, Adrian, Fiona if we count the books), loyalists (Wynne, Vivienne), the conflicted (Bethany), well meaning but fools and dangerous (Orsino).

 

So yep, more balanced portrayal between mages and templars. It's how I felt playing Inquisition anyway and I prefer both sides to be conscripted.

[IanPolaris]

The average mundane isn't trading any of their liberties at all. The mages are but how many Mage kids do you think would survive the superstitious peasant mobs? What of the mundanes who would be powerless against any Mage no matter the degree of training such a Mage might posses?

 

If you deny one group their human rights, you deny them to everyone in the end. 

[RepHope]

If you deny one group their human rights, you deny them to everyone in the end.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Aren]

 No. I have never had preconceptions.

Many have hated the templars before, just because they were so   focalized to admire the mages,  their magic and their  prestigious games instead of  consider the single person.

Place judgement over a person for preconception is stupid

[Aren]

At least the Dalish are free and are masters of their own destiny and not the playthings of humans.

I'm still amused that a people who, in theory, refuse to bend a knee put permanent slave brands all over their faces.  Slaves to a past that never even existed, I guess.

[guntar74]

Nah. My look on lore and groups is pretty much the same, good and bad, smart and stupid in every faction.

Lore wise I think they just need to start answering questions and being more clear. They have all this lore and back story set up but then u have every other character going nah, wrong, wrong, wrong, kinda right, wrong.

[blahblahblah]

I'm still amused that a people who, in theory, refuse to bend a knee put permanent slave brands all over their faces.  Slaves to a past that never even existed, I guess.

So you prefer the dalish to  surrender themselves to the humans being oppressed like their city elf counterparts.

[Daerog]

No, clearly he meant that the Dalish should conquer the Qunari, turn all the qunari into Harvesters, slay all the dwarves, humans, and darkspawn, and then rule Thedas like Tevinter blood magisters.

 

Then seek to summon spirits to turn them into slaves.

[Aren]

So you prefer the dalish to  surrender themselves to the humans being oppressed like their city elf counterparts.

When did i say something like that?

however they should stop to idealize about how wonderful and beautiful their culture was, and instead of trying to emulate a past that isn't never been as they thought it to be, they should look for another future, and open their mind to the other cultures of thedas.

Traditions is something,  Progress is everything.

[blahblahblah]

 

When did i say something like that?

however they should stop to idealize about how wonderful and beautiful their culture was, and instead of trying to emulate a past that isn't never been as they thought it to be, they should look for another future, and open their mind to the other cultures of thedas.

Traditions is something,  Progress is everything.

 

What culture do they need to accept then? Qunari? It's no different from any cultures in Thedas.