I suppose you could say the ending was....THEMATICALLY REVOLTING.
Now where did that thread go? That was an awesome thread.
EDIT: I think I actually know where it went, the guys made their own page at some point. Still, it was a great thread back in the day.
Bolded for truth.
ANd that's why DAO did it right, and ME3 did it all wrong
Disagree completely.
Not at all true. You have a happy ending. 3 of them if you choose. You beat the Reapers, the Galaxy lives, and Shepard even lives in one of them.
This statement is false.
Yes. Yes it is.
Because, at the core of the franchise, you're facing an opponent for which the light/dark side morality meter doesn't apply.
You're trying to apply that morality to the Reapers, and coming up wanting when it doesn't work.
The core antagonist of the franchise (and thus, the conflict), really does boil down to a setting that is in line with GoT. Or BSG.
But it does apply. It applied when they put the Reapers in a game with a Paragon/Renegade meter. Rather than a BSG or GoT setting. The setting should affect the characters, not the other way around.
In the same way that beating someone over the head with a hammer is different in a Three Stooges sketch as from a Stephen King novel.
Yes. Yes it is.
Because, at the core of the franchise, you're facing an opponent for which the light/dark side morality meter doesn't apply.
You're trying to apply that morality to the Reapers, and coming up wanting when it doesn't work.
The core antagonist of the franchise (and thus, the conflict), really does boil down to a setting that is in line with GoT. Or BSG.
I think that's Iakus' point. Since originally (before Leviathan) whether or not the reapers conformed to the light/dark side morality was not discussed until the very end, where it was discovered that they do not, despite the fact that the entire series was based around this morality. It's a decision that is honestly not objectively open to criticism simply based on the concept, some will like it, some won't. It's execution can be more objectively discussed from a story telling perspective.
Disagree completely.
Not at all true. You have a happy ending. 3 of them if you choose. You beat the Reapers, the Galaxy lives, and Shepard even lives in one of them.
This statement is false.
I suppose if one thinks John Carpenter's The Thing was a happy ending, I could see how one could think that.
But as I've said before, merely surviving isn't enough for a "happy" outcome. Something Bioware fogot about somewhere between ME2 and ME3.
I suppose if one thinks John Carpenter's The Thing was a happy ending, I could see how one could think that.
But as I've said before, merely surviving isn't enough for a "happy" outcome. Something Bioware fogot about somewhere between ME2 and ME3.
They didn't forget it. They just didn't choose to indulge in the idea that there is some abstract, intangible higher ideal that is inherently superior to the observable, measurable, cold, hard reality.
But it does apply. It applied when they put the Reapers in a game with a Paragon/Renegade meter. Rather than a BSG or GoT setting. The setting should affect the characters, not the other way around.
In the same way that beating someone over the head with a hammer is different in a Three Stooges sketch as from a Stephen King novel.
Read my edit to the post.
They didn't forget it. They just didn't choose to indulge in the idea that there is some abstract, intangible higher ideal that is inherently superior to the observable, measurable, cold, hard reality.
Yet they did choose to indulge it in the first 95% of the game. You could, of course choose between two different ideals. But those ideals were there.
They didn't forget it. They just didn't choose to indulge in the idea that there is some abstract, intangible higher ideal that is inherently superior to the observable, measurable, cold, hard reality.
I might buy that they did that with the original cut. Yet, they felt compelled to give us the EC after the fact, which does considerable change the tone of the endings into happy ones, where all the more dire aspects of the choice you have to make outside of a conventional morality system are swept under the rug and are replaced by the classic "...and they lived happily ever after" slides. So, no matter what we choose, we seem to always satisfy the standard earthly morals nonetheless.
Somewhere in there, there is a writing inconsistency, not some genius masterstroke that tried to contrast the paragon/renegade system versus reaper/star kid morals.
Read my edit to the post.
Read it. doesn't change my point.
Sure they made the Reapers operate on some BLue/Orange morality. But that doesn't change that Shepard operated on the Paragon/Renegade system for the entirety of the trilogy. With "Play by the rules" being Paragon and 'Do whatever it takes" as Renegade. Whether you approve of this system or not is entirely up to you. But that it existed is not disputable. And how Shepard approached it was a driving force behind his/her character developement and problem solving options.
This is patently untrue. Also, can you please explain how an ending in which everybody lives and the bad guys are vanquished and good conquers all doesn't work and shouldn't? Please tell me how that would NEVER work. EVER. This should be hilarious for you try and explain. I am all ears on this one.
Endings that are supper realistic and/or depressing aren't necessarily good. Just as saccharine endings aren't necessarily bad. Or Vice versa or anything in between. Cut it out with the arbitrary narrative rules.
It's not untrue. You have several endings. You have High EMS Destroy, You have 2 High EMS Controls, You have Synthesis, You have the middle EMS endings (same options here sans synthesis), You have the low EMS destroy, and you have Refuse.
Depending on your stance, but still on their own technicality, the High EMS endings are all happy.
Why wouldn't it work? Because it's cheap. Because the Reapers are too powerful and alien for everyone to live or be considered evil respectively.
And you're putting the second statement into my mouth. I never stated this. You did. If you're saying I said it, you're wrong.
That is a true statement. But that isn't my argument. This is an irrelevant position and non sequitur argument here. I'm not making any arbitrary rules to writing. By advocating a position of saying that there 'must' be a happy ending that suits your sensibilities, you are. Your point is discarded as irrelevant.
Read it. doesn't change my point.
Sure they made the Reapers operate on some BLue/Orange morality. But that doesn't change that Shepard operated on the Paragon/Renegade system for the entirety of the trilogy. With "Play by the rules" being Paragon and 'Do whatever it takes" as Renegade. Whether you approve of this system or not is entirely up to you. But that it existed is not disputable. And how Shepard approached it was a driving force behind his/her character developement and problem solving options.
This is a non-sequitur argument.
What Shepard operates by is not what the universe operates by. Thus, beyond a personal scale, this system of morality is not relevant. There is no force or higher abstract ideal that is affected by Shepard's goodness or badness.
I'm not doubting the existence of this morality system. I'm doubting its relevance. And in the end, when you're faced with the system that the Reapers operate by, you're not able to revert to your basic ideology to solve the problem. You can't play by the rules and win, since your ideology is incompatible with the Reapers ideology. That I can, according to my own philosophy, is not actually relevant here either. I'm not going to proselytize my philosophy here now. You know my stance on it. If anyone wants to know about it, I'll mention it.
As it is, I do approve of the system on a personal level. It's practical. That said, it's not applicable to everything, nor should it be. That's the argument you're trying to make.
I might buy that they did that with the original cut. Yet, they felt compelled to give us the EC after the fact, which does considerable change the tone of the endings into happy ones, where all the more dire aspects of the choice you have to make outside of a conventional morality system are swept under the rug and are replaced by the classic "...and they lived happily ever after" slides. So, no matter what we choose, we seem to always satisfy the standard earthly morals nonetheless.
Somewhere in there, there is a writing inconsistency, not some genius masterstroke that tried to contrast the paragon/renegade system versus reaper/star kid morals.
Indeed. I'm not going to dispute that. Hell, there's another poster, osbourneshep that pointed that out as well on another thread.
That said, on a philosophical level, I'm able to reconcile my philosophy with the philosophy of the Catalyst and the Reapers and with the endings presented.
That is indeed an issue though, with how the EC dropped the process for the ending while sweeping the implications of the choices under the rug.
HYR 2.0 put it well in a sentiment on that aspect as well, with how BW went for realism and faced the criticism that they didn't stick to the black/white power fantasy. While a bit frank and blunt, I generally agree with the sentiment.
This is a non-sequitur argument.
What Shepard operates by is not what the universe operates by. Thus, beyond a personal scale, this system of morality is not relevant. There is no force or higher abstract ideal that is affected by Shepard's goodness or badness.
I'm not doubting the existence of this morality system. I'm doubting its relevance. And in the end, when you're faced with the system that the Reapers operate by, you're not able to revert to your basic ideology to solve the problem. You can't play by the rules and win, since your ideology is incompatible with the Reapers ideology. That I can, according to my own philosophy, is not actually relevant here either. I'm not going to proselytize my philosophy here now. You know my stance on it. If anyone wants to know about it, I'll mention it.
As it is, I do approve of the system on a personal level. It's practical. That said, it's not applicable to everything, nor should it be. That's the argument you're trying to make.
Except it is what the universe operates by. You can't hug Tali unless the Paragon symbol is flashing. You can't kick the Eclipse merc out the window unless the Renegade symbol flashes. You can't take the Illusive Man into shooting himself without the proper blue/red dialogue unlocked. And of course, certain words or actions give you blue or red points. Even SHepard's appearance can change based on BLue/Red standing.
Yes, it's not how RL operates. But it's certainly how the Mass Effect universe operates. Or did until the last five minutes. It exists, and it has relevence.
Shepard can't "play by the rules and win" not because of how the Reapers operate, but because the developers suddenly decided to change games out of the blue (or red)
That said, on a philosophical level, I'm able to reconcile my philosophy with the philosophy of the Catalyst and the Reapers and with the endings presented.
And that's the fundamental difference: You can reconcile it with your philosophy. While I and others cannot. This problem did not, presumably happen with ME1 or ME2's endings. At least, I assume you were happy (or at least, content) with how they turned out. I admit to having some problems with ME2's storytelling, but was able to end it in a more or less satisfactory way.
Except it is what the universe operates by. You can't hug Tali unless the Paragon symbol is flashing. You can't kick the Eclipse merc out the window unless the Renegade symbol flashes. You can't take the Illusive Man into shooting himself without the proper blue/red dialogue unlocked. And of course, certain words or actions give you blue or red points. Even SHepard's appearance can change based on BLue/Red standing.
Yes, it's not how RL operates. But it's certainly how the Mass Effect universe operates. Or did until the last five minutes. It exists, and it has relevence.
Shepard can't "play by the rules and win" not because of how the Reapers operate, but because the developers suddenly decided to change games out of the blue (or red)
No it isn't. As I said, that might be how Shepard can function morally, but on a macro-galactic or universal scale? It's the same ambiguity and universe as real life.
As I said, there is no metaphysical counter that records how many good actions Shepard did. All of what you mentioned is limited to one person alone: Shepard.
On a meta level, you may be correct (though I hesitate with the sudden part, and certainly with the implication that it's a bad thing) on the developers changing the games presentation of morality from Shepard's own definition to the Reapers definition. Your Shepard may operate on the paragon or renegade system, but the universe itself is inherently amoral, and the Reapers have their own alien system. That's the way the games were made from the beginning. It's implicit, because it shouldn't have to be explicit. It should be self-evident that your own value system and morality pertains only to your Shepard and his own actions themselves.
But in-universe (which is how I suspect we're presenting this argument), quite simply put, you can't play by the rules and win. The Reapers operate on a fundamentally incompatible level with that ideology. Which to me is acceptable and fine for the game to have, even in universe. And back to the developers, I don't believe that they presented the universe as some black and white moral setting that has some abstract rulemaker that tally's the good and the bad and gives the outcome a final judgement as you seem to believe.
Guest_AugmentedAssassin_*
Not sure. I personally don't think the explanation was wacky or not deliberate. It clearly elaborated on the purpose of the reapers and their creation, especially if you include leviathan and the extended cut. The fact that DLCs were required to adequately explain key components of the story can be referenced as a major flaw, however as long as we're discussing the story conceptually whether the content was part of a DLC or not is irrelevant.
Further, embracing the dark energy approach as the motivating factor of the reapers would imply that astronomical events and eras occur on the scale of tens of thousands of years.... a severe shortcoming if you tend to view things scientifically like me. Explaining it through the interactions of organic and synthetic life allows for the short explanation of the short time scale, relatively speaking.
I've addressed this before, I've stated that the problem with the catalyst is that he's basically telling you to deal with it, That his observation is right no matter what while the evidence shows otherwise. This is weak narrative, To leave things this open to player's interpretation. His idea of Organics' progress and synthetics crossed my mind years before i played mass effect, But that particular concept can not be used in a storyline like that because it's an over-simplification and a more poetic take on the story rather than the thorough, detailed and plot-heavy approach they originally intended to take. Mass effect has always been about thorough explanations. For example, If Organics' needs require them to create Synthetics that surpass them, Both organics and synthetics may end up creating a hybrid DNA that serves both sides. "Synthesis". End of conflict. And yes, It also crossed my mind years before i even saw it in mass effect, And i had in mind a similar concept to the reapers.
I don't see why the big scale bothers you, It's scientific, And It's more scientifically well-explained that the short explanation. You don't have to see everything in front of you to make sense of it, Sometimes you have to use your intuition and imagination to understand large-scale concepts.
I don't see why the big scale bothers you, It's scientific, And It's more scientifically well-explained that the short explanation. You don't have to see everything in front of you to make sense of it, Sometimes you have to use your intuition and imagination to understand large-scale concepts.
Sorry, I didn't see this before but I want to comment on this because it touches on another area where I think the endings failed terribly.
One big problem I have with the reapers in the endings is that they are deprived of the incredible power and scale, they represented throughout the trilogy. First of all, they are leashed by the catalyst, who somehow at the same time is supposed to represent their combined intelligence (how that is supposed to work, I don't know but let's move on). Even worse, the revealed motivations of the reapers show that for all their age and all their grand perspective, their thinking process seems to be severely limited (later, in the Leviathan DLC, it was explained why that is but that doesn't make the intellectual castration of the reapers any better). As their purpose, they project a problem that they never actually observed, predict it as being the truth and then the only "solution," they can come up with is stagnation (the cycles). They seem to severely lack in both imagination and foresight and they seem to concentrate on a really small picture, given their sheer power. Again, Leviathan tells us why that is but still, I am bothered by the fact that it is.
What happened to "we are beyond your comprehension"? What happened to "you are fumbling in ignorance"? The problem they are trying to "solve" in a pretty stupid way is not that complicated in the end and furthermore, their premise is flawed and they seem to be too stupid to even see it. Before the catalyst conversation, I was awed by the reapers. After it, I kind of pity them. That's an anticlimax right there.
Say what you will about the dark energy concept. Yes it was unfinished, yes it needed a lot of work but at least it had the potential to create a plot that would have lived up to Sovereign's smack-talk from back in ME1. The way things are now, which essentially boils down to the fact that the reapers are afraid of the future, that does not live up to the expectations I had.
I've addressed this before, I've stated that the problem with the catalyst is that he's basically telling you to deal with it, That his observation is right no matter what while the evidence shows otherwise. This is weak narrative, To leave things this open to player's interpretation. His idea of Organics' progress and synthetics crossed my mind years before i played mass effect, But that particular concept can not be used in a storyline like that because it's an over-simplification and a more poetic take on the story rather than the thorough, detailed and plot-heavy approach they originally intended to take. Mass effect has always been about thorough explanations. For example, If Organics' needs require them to create Synthetics that surpass them, Both organics and synthetics may end up creating a hybrid DNA that serves both sides. "Synthesis". End of conflict. And yes, It also crossed my mind years before i even saw it in mass effect, And i had in mind a similar concept to the reapers.
I don't see why the big scale bothers you, It's scientific, And It's more scientifically well-explained that the short explanation. You don't have to see everything in front of you to make sense of it, Sometimes you have to use your intuition and imagination to understand large-scale concepts.
Yes that's a valid criticism. Synthesis is clearly the ultimate solution (just talking about the ME universe here not gonna discuss my own or anyone else's ideas about the future of organic and synthetic life in the real world), yet it was not applied because the Leviathan were not "ready" with no explanation as to what ready means. Does it simply entail accepting the change? Also what makes the current civilization ready? What's the variable? This leads to very sensitive themes such as transhumanism which I hesitate to discuss but if someone were to spark the debate I'd gladly join in.
Regarding your second point, the big scale does not bother me, nor am I concerned with precise hard science explanations behind everything that happens in ME. There's a reason it's called science-fiction. What would be problematic if Bioware was to go down the dark energy path, is that through a scientific and a story telling lens, cosmological events do not operate on the time scale of tens of thousands of years (which is the time scale of the 'cycle') but rather millions and billions of years, save the infancy years of the universe.
Guest_AugmentedAssassin_*
Sorry, I didn't see this before but I want to comment on this because it touches on another area where I think the endings failed terribly.
One big problem I have with the reapers in the endings is that they are deprived of the incredible power and scale, they represented throughout the trilogy. First of all, they are leashed by the catalyst, who somehow at the same time is supposed to represent their combined intelligence (how that is supposed to work, I don't know but let's move on). Even worse, the revealed motivations of the reapers show that for all their age and all their grand perspective, their thinking process seems to be severely limited (later, in the Leviathan DLC, it was explained why that is but that doesn't make the intellectual castration of the reapers any better). As their purpose, they project a problem that they never actually observed, predict it as being the truth and then the only "solution," they can come up with is stagnation (the cycles). They seem to severely lack in both imagination and foresight and they seem to concentrate on a really small picture, given their sheer power. Again, Leviathan tells us why that is but still, I am bothered by the fact that it is.
What happened to "we are beyond your comprehension"? What happened to "you are fumbling in ignorance"? The problem they are trying to "solve" in a pretty stupid way is not that complicated in the end and furthermore, their premise is flawed and they seem to be too stupid to even see it. Before the catalyst conversation, I was awed by the reapers. After it, I kind of pity them. That's a anticlimax right there.
Say what you will about the dark energy concept. Yes it was unfinished, yes it needed a lot of work but at least it had the potential to created a plot that would have lived up to Sovereign's smack-talk from back in ME1. The way things are now, which s essentially that the reapers are afraid of the future, that does not live up to the expectations I had.
Well, I can not allow myself to talk about the project for much for two reasons: 1) You guys need to see it as a whole to get surprised and to bring back the hype for mass effect. 2) My project was nearly shut down more than 6 times as the scale is too big both technically and story-wisely. I personally believe in my abilities that i can deliver this story, I'm just not sure if now is the best time to do so. My personal problems aside, I intend to bring together all the loose ends in a one, Big, Gigantic plot-twist. Missions like Thessia, Earth and The Prologue will get heavy modifications, Also, Most of ME2 squad will be back in action with Shepard except of a few. I know that it's almost technically impossible, But I'm willing to give it a try. So, Yes, I am trying to create a plot that lives up to the awe of Sovereign and mystery of the collectors and to deliver one final blow to the brilliant mass effect story.
P.S: I'm still recruiting for my project, Though I may have put the recruitment movement on hold since the project went to stasis mode a couple of months ago. I'm requiring a good writer, Good programmers and Animators and a sound effects expert.
Guest_AugmentedAssassin_*
Yes that's a valid criticism. Synthesis is clearly the ultimate solution (just talking about the ME universe here not gonna discuss my own or anyone else's ideas about the future of organic and synthetic life in the real world), yet it was not applied because the Leviathan were not "ready" with no explanation as to what ready means. Does it simply entail accepting the change? Also what makes the current civilization ready? What's the variable? This leads to very sensitive themes such as transhumanism which I hesitate to discuss but if someone were to spark the debate I'd gladly join in.
Regarding your second point, the big scale does not bother me, nor am I concerned with precise hard science explanations behind everything that happens in ME. There's a reason it's called science-fiction. What would be problematic if Bioware was to go down the dark energy path, is that through a scientific and a story telling lens, cosmological events do not operate on the time scale of tens of thousands of years (which is the time scale of the 'cycle') but rather millions and billions of years, save the infancy years of the universe.
I have a fix for that. 
Regarding your second point, the big scale does not bother me, nor am I concerned with precise hard science explanations behind everything that happens in ME. There's a reason it's called science-fiction. What would be problematic if Bioware was to go down the dark energy path, is that through a scientific and a story telling lens, cosmological events do not operate on the time scale of tens of thousands of years (which is the time scale of the 'cycle') but rather millions and billions of years, save the infancy years of the universe.
And that IMO was the beauty of it. That is what could have really captured the "beyond your comprehension" angle. The reapers would think on this scale, orders of magnitude above what we could even fathom. The fact that the cycles are relatively short doesn't interefere with that. It all depends on how exactly the reaper cycles interact with the larger issue. The may be slowly working towards something with them or whatever.
The fact that the premise is so far out there would also have given the writers more freedom in a way. Much more than the limited issue they are onto now.
Guest_AugmentedAssassin_*
I may have misunderstood your statement there, guywiththebatcostume. Sorry about that, A bit busy right now. I completely agree with Mr. Fob, The sense of mystery is the best aspect of the reapers story-arch. Also, About the cycles, The whole idea of how and why do the reapers pick 50,000 years in specific and why did they invent the mass relays and how does it help the process of the cycles will be very thoroughly explained in my project.
And that IMO was the beauty of it. That is what could have really captured the "beyond your comprehension" angle. The reapers would think on this scale, orders of magnitude above what we could even fathom. The fact that the cycles are relatively short doesn't interefere with that. It all depends on how exactly the reaper cycles interact with the larger issue. The may be slowly working towards something with them or whatever.
The fact that the premise is so far out there would also have given the writers more freedom in a way. Much more than the limited issue they are onto now.
The dark energy theme would've definitely been a valid option, so is the synthetic vs organic theme. IMO the synthetic vs organic option fits in better with the timeline and with how the reapers operate.
Although I suppose we don't really know what time scale we're dealing with and I think it might be clarified with the next ME. The galactic civilization that we have in ME (the one that includes humans, geth, salarians. turians etc.) is a type II civilization while what little was said about the Leviathans hints at a civilization approaching type III status, which is still vulnerable to events that disrupt functions within its home galaxy. But then again we can't assume that the Leviathans would have responded to this threat the same way as they did to the synthetic vs organic conflicts, by creating an AI. And would this AI go rogue as well????
SO MANY UNKNOWNS....CANNOT COMPUTE.... BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP.....SYSTEM OVERHEAT.........MANUAL OVERRIDE REQUIRED
The dark energy theme would've definitely been a valid option, so is the synthetic vs organic theme. IMO the synthetic vs organic option fits in better with the timeline and with how the reapers operate.
Yea well, as I said above, my main gripe with the synthetics vs. organics plot is that it essentially shows off how limited the reaper's perspective really is, while something like dark energy would have shown how vast it is.
For me, from ME1 onwards, there was no doubt in my mind that the cycles were just a small symptom of a larger purpose the reapers had going. Unfortunately, it turned out that the cycles were the entirety of the reapers' purpose. That was really disappointing to me.
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