333 réponses à ce sujet

[SilJeff]

Your job was to stop the reapers, the reapers were stopped.

 

How is that not a win?

[Mcfly616]

What a perverted usage of "win". You and I must have a canyon-wide divide between our definition of the word.

Clearly....though I take it you don't even know what the word perverted means. Or maybe you don't grasp the concept of winning. Either way....

 

 

 

Shepard saved the civilizations of the galaxy. He/she broke a cycle that was possibly a billion years old and provided the galaxy with an actual future for the first time in as many years. That's winning no matter how you slice it.

 

 

And Mass Effect being a space opera doesn't relegate it to a'happy', 'walking off into the sunset' ending as you were suggesting. You must not be too familiar with the rest of the sci fi genre, as the conclusion comes off quite peachy in comparison to most of the stuff out there these days.

[Iakus]

Clearly....though I take it you don't even know what the word perverted means. Or maybe you don't grasp the concept of winning. Either way....

 

 

 

Shepard saved the civilizations of the galaxy. He/she broke a cycle that was possibly a billion years old and provided the galaxy with an actual future for the first time in as many years. That's winning no matter how you slice it.

 

 

And Mass Effect being a space opera doesn't relegate it to a'happy', 'walking off into the sunset' ending as you were suggesting. You must not be too familiar with the rest of the sci fi genre, as the conclusion comes off quite peachy in comparison to most of the stuff out there these days.

Nor does it relegate it into angsty Machiavellian "the ends justify any means" ending either.  Space opera is a broad genre.

 

A thousand choices across three games should have had enough outcomes to accommodate happy, sad and multiple levels of "bittersweet"

 

And there certainly should have been enough planing to avoid the thematic whiplash. 

[Mcfly616]

Nor does it relegate it into angsty Machiavellian "the ends justify any means" ending either.  Space opera is a broad genre.

 

A thousand choices across three games should have had enough outcomes to accommodate happy, sad and multiple levels of "bittersweet"

 

And there certainly should have been enough planing to avoid the thematic whiplash. 

Regardless, it's winning. 

 

 

I didn't say it relegated it to anything, unlike your buddy. He seems to think space operas coincide with happy endings. They don't.

[nickkcin11]

Clearly....though I take it you don't even know what the word perverted means. Or maybe you don't grasp the concept of winning. Either way....

 

 

 

Shepard saved the civilizations of the galaxy. He/she broke a cycle that was possibly a billion years old and provided the galaxy with an actual future for the first time in as many years. That's winning no matter how you slice it.

 

 

And Mass Effect being a space opera doesn't relegate it to a'happy', 'walking off into the sunset' ending as you were suggesting. You must not be too familiar with the rest of the sci fi genre, as the conclusion comes off quite peachy in comparison to most of the stuff out there these days.

 

And I can tell from your overuse of ellipses (which you make with 4 periods) that you're just Shakespeare. Can you explain how I've misused "perverted"? Because I assure you, I haven't.

 

*Shrugs* In the technical sense you're right, the Reapers lost and we weren't totally harvested. It just never felt like a satisfying victory in any sense of the word. Shepard didn't even die in my playthrough, there was hardly any "tragedy" (which is apparently the business for you) for me. Remember though, initially the Mass Relays were destroyed, the Normandy crashes on a deserted planet and everyone's in orbit around Earth. It wasn't hard to imagine that this "victory" would quickly turn into a Donner Party-esque spiral into survival, chaos and death. Add to it that Shepard just blindly agreed to one of the three comically retarded choices that were nonsensically explained, and you can see how most of us in the community felt like puppets instead of heroes.

 

Oh god. Stop for a second. You think I didn't like the ending because it wasn't happy? You've just shown me that you have no idea why people disagree with you, which is pretty essential if you're trying to be persuasive. Your assertion that people are just pining for some uninspired, cliched happy ending is still as facepalm worthy as it was 2 years ago.

 

Let's take a look at the Wikipedia definition for space opera:

 

"a colorful, dramatic, large-scale science fiction adventure, competently and sometimes beautifully written, usually focused on a sympathetic, heroic central character and plot action, and usually set in the relatively distant future, and in space or on other worlds, characteristically optimistic in tone. It often deals with war, piracy, military virtues, and very large-scale action, large stakes."

 

Now if Mass Effect from the beginning had deconstructed the space opera and subverted genre tropes, maybe your ending would make thematic sense (though it'd still be poor story-telling). Maybe if the series hadn't prided itself on diverse choices/consequences, maybe if the series hadn't been character (not thematically) driven, "maybe if" ad nauseam. You would've had to change the direction of the entire franchise for this to be a passable ending. I could give a 20 point list on why this ending was bad. And I don't give a squirt of ****** for how dark, edgy, tragic, etc. other science fiction stories are nowadays. They could all be that way, Mass Effect still wouldn't be able to follow that trend while still maintaining thematic/tonal integrity. And clearly, Mass Effect is exceptional in some way because the other "stuff" you cite didn't receive the backlash this stinker ending did. However, I can think of another poorly thought out ending that is equally disappointing(cough HIMYM cough).

[Rittmeister64]

pretty funny, I bet most have seen this already, enjoy if it's new. cheers.

[Element Zero]

That trailer is hilarious! Two thumbs up!

[Mcfly616]

Oh god. Stop for a second. You think I didn't like the ending because it wasn't happy? You've just shown me that you have no idea why people disagree with you, which is pretty essential if you're trying to be persuasive. Your assertion that people are just pining for some uninspired, cliched happy ending is still as facepalm worthy as it was 2 years ago.

 

 

 Maybe you should stop, 'cause now you just look silly.   You wasted all your time typing this only to put words in my mouth and say that I said you didn't like it because it wasn't "happy" (which never happened). Cool story, but you can do better. Go ahead and point out where that happened. I'll wait...

 

 

Also funny, that your entire post is filled with your own subjective opinions: "never felt like a satisfying victory",  "maybe your ending would make thematic sense (though it'd still be poor story-telling)", "three comically retarded choices". 

 

 

 

My favorite part is where you referenced your source. Wikipedia. Good stuff. "competently and sometimes beautifully written". Too bad space opera is generally looked down upon by the sci fi community for the most part.

[Mcfly616]

You say things like "thematic point of the story" and such, yet there's no singular overall theme to Mass Effect. It's comprised of many underlying themes. None of which are prominently at the forefront.

 

 

You say if it "subverted genre tropes" from the beginning, it would've been okay. When that's simply false. It doesn't need to subvert anything in order for it to fit. While a space opera is a light hearted take on sci-fi, it is not required to have an upbeat or optimistic conclusion.  (which Mass Effect arguably does anyway)

[RoboticWater]

Maybe you should stop, 'cause now you just look silly  you wasted all your time typing this only to put words in my mouth and say that I said you didn't like it because it wasn't "happy" (which never happened). Cool story, but you can do better. Go ahead and point out where that happened. I'll wait...
 
Also funny, that your entire post is filled with your own subjective opinions: "never felt like a satisfying victory",  "maybe your ending would make thematic sense (though it'd still be poor story-telling)", "three comically retarded choices". 
 
My favorite part is where you referenced your source. Wikipedia. Good stuff.

While textbook definitions don't often describe artistic works perfectly, the Wikipedia generalization is correct in this case. It sums up ME1-2 almost perfectly, and seeing as Mass Effect isn't a franchise that commonly subverts such tropes, I think it's entirely reasonable to criticize ME3 for taking a sharp turn. Up until the ending, ME3 was pretty conventional Mass Effect, and that's why many of us absolutely despise the ending. There was no buildup, no proper foundation for the direction the ending took.
 
Don't dismiss feeling simply because it's subjective. Yes, much of the ending debate does center around its feasibility within the universe, but a major component to many people's arguments is how the ending felt. To me, it felt thematically non sequitur and to others, the so called victory felt uncharacteristically or unnecessarily hollow. Regardless, feelings can be valid criticism as long as they are well founded, and I think nickkcin11 did an adequate job describing why (s)he felt that the ending was bad.
 

You say things like "thematic point of the story" and such, yet there's no singular overall theme to Mass Effect.

Yet, it does. Would you not say that "Unity of diversity leads to victory" is not a (if not the) overall theme of Mass Effect? That's precisely what you do throughout the first two games and for the majority of the third. It permeates just about every conflict you encounter large and small. 
 
Even if that isn't the absolute central theme, I think it's entirely reasonable to accuse the ending of loosing the "Mass Effect feel." The pacing felt out of place for a climax, especially a Mass Effect climax. Though we're no stranger to the God-like Reapers, the Star-Child seemed much too impersonal. The previous games made an effort to keep the climax between entities who could be reasoned with (TIM and Saren). I never got the sense that I would end the game facing some inscrutable being. It doesn't matter whether or not Star-Child is actually a deus ex machina, it just seemed wrong to be dealing with it. TUN makes the same point (among others). I'd list more issues, but I'm short on time right now, just watch the video if you want the full scoop.

[Mcfly616]

 

Yet, it does. Would you not say that "Unity of diversity leads to victory" is not a (if not the) overall theme of Mass Effect? That's precisely what you do throughout the first two games and for the majority of the third. It permeates just about every conflict you encounter large and small. 
 

No, it doesn't though. And no, I wouldn't. There's no central theme to the trilogy. The devs themselves have said as much. However, there are many underlying themes. When your excuse is that it was bad because it abandoned the theme of the series, and the series never had a pronounced theme, then no, I don't see how he did an adequate job explaining why it's bad. That's neither here nor there. Because I couldn't care less who thinks it was bad and who thinks it was good. It made sense, thats all I could ask for.

 

In fact, I think it was fans who coined that "unity through diversity" bit (if I'm not mistaken). And considering you could be a xenophobic ass throughout all 3 games, well...

 

 

 

 

And in terms of the previous games having us reasoning with Saren and TIM, whereas we couldn't with the Catalyst, I don't see it as a disconnect. It's what I expected. Not necessarily the Catalyst itself. But I always expected to come face to face with the Reapers and that I wouldn't be able to reason with them. Kyle Reece's words come to mind. It's a machine. It can't be reasoned with or bargained with. They have always been extreme and absolute. Saren and TIM on the other hand, they were Reaper thralls. I'm glad they showed them wrestling with indoctrination and they allowed us to try and break that hold over them.

 

 

 

I guess, I always felt the whole set up never boded well for our hero. Ancient galactic juggernauts that have never failed in their duties, undefeated in untold millennia, suicide missions, galactic war. Something had to give. And as expected, it did. 

[Vazgen]

I agree with Mcfly616 regarding the reasons for why we can't argue with the Catalyst. It's similar to an ant trying to convince us that we can surpass the speed of light if we just hold our hands together and close our eyes (weird analogy, I know). The point is, the Catalyst is presented as a billion+ year old artificial intelligence that has observed countless cycles of extinction. It would've been very weird for it to be so easily dissuaded by a 32 (30) year old human.

As for the emotional response to the ending, while I don't disagree that the execution of the ending is quite flawed and inconsistent with what the player has observed previously, I think that a "ride into the sunset"-type ending would've received much less negativity.

And the word "win" I think clearly applies to ME3 ending (at least for high EMS Destroy). You stop the cycle of galactic annihilation. Yes, there is a cost. For some it is acceptable, for some - horrific, but it's the "ruthless calculus of war" at its finest. 

[Mcfly616]

I agree. The ending could've been executed much better. Even Bioware knows that. Developers usually don't just release extended cuts for their games, nor do they do it for free. Hopefully they've learned a thing or two without listening to and taking pointers from the most vocal of detractors (as they're usually the most obnoxious). Constructive criticism is best.

[Linkenski]

I know it's been discussed to death but I've recently finished ME3 and I'm completely in awe. What happened to the dark energy foreshadowing? everything went well until PICK A COLOR.

 

Seriously? I hope the writer got fired.

He got promoted to Creative Director for NextME. His name is Mac Walters. Casey Hudson who was mainly responsible for the concept (or at least many believe this) quit himself last year.

[goishen]

And here I go back to the Dexter analogy. 

 

How else could it have ended?  People will always find things to ****** about.   Oh, wait, I'm supposed to have two kids with Liara, not one!   GDI BioWare!!!  No, screw that.   We knew that Shepard would die in the very first game at the end of the trilogy.  It's made to be a tragedy.  Not a western. 

 

And the fact that we're still here today, discussing it, proves its validity and references its effectiveness.

 

Too many Americans are so used to seeing the hero ride off into the sunset.  Sorry, if you want that kind'a ending, go someplace else and look.   I hear Burn Notice had a happy ending.

[Element Zero]

We'll likely never hear such admitted, but I think they mismanaged their resources and had to slap this thing together at essentially the "last minute". Since the initial frustrations have cooled, it is easier to see that the problem isn't the concept of the Reaper AI and its Organics v Synthetics programming. The problem is that it was horribly implemented. The execution was horribly, shockingly bad.

Looking at BioWare's positive track record, and the many other rushed elements in Mass Effect 3, I come to the conclusion that the ending was slapped together in the final hours. Again, we are not likely to ever hear Casey say "Yeah, I let the ME3 project get away from me. My team ended up spinning their wheels on too many dead-ends, and we ran out of time, despite being granted an extension by EA". He shouldn't have to say that, either. We have Casey to thank for Mass Effect even existing, and I feel bad for the guy in terms of how things turned on him with ME3. I do believe that's what really happened, though. As the deadline approached, they'd spent too much time in the wrong ways. They never recovered.

As fans, we can take the good with the bad, and accept where we stand; or, we can stay pissed about it forever. Either course is a legitimate personal choice. I choose the former. I think BioWare learned some tough lessons, and I think they will carry those lessons forward into future projects.

[Daemul]

I know it's been discussed to death but I've recently finished ME3 and I'm completely in awe. What happened to the dark energy foreshadowing? everything went well until PICK A COLOR.

Seriously? I hope the writer got fired.

Dark energy? LOL! Bioware thankfully threw that nonsense in hole, it would have been an incredibly dumb ending.

[nickkcin11]

 Maybe you should stop, 'cause now you just look silly.   You wasted all your time typing this only to put words in my mouth and say that I said you didn't like it because it wasn't "happy" (which never happened). Cool story, but you can do better. Go ahead and point out where that happened. I'll wait...

 

1.) "And Mass Effect being a space opera doesn't relegate it to a 'happy', 'walking off into the sunset' ending as you were suggesting."

2.) "He seems to think space operas coincide with happy endings. They don't."

 

The bolded statement seems to pretty clearly imply that you believe my main problem with the ending was that it was too tragic because I'd prefer a "happier" ending. Regardless if you explicitly stated it, there was a tacit understanding that you thought was my view.

 

*To clarify, some of the most prominent reasons for why I felt disappointed with the ending were the lack closure, the inefficacy of your previous actions on the final outcome, the use of deus-ex machina, the nonsensical explanations, the contradiction of established themes, and illusory "choices" presented.

 

Also funny, that your entire post is filled with your own subjective opinions: "never felt like a satisfying victory",  "maybe your ending would make thematic sense (though it'd still be poor story-telling)", "three comically retarded choices". 

 

My favorite part is where you referenced your source. Wikipedia. Good stuff. "competently and sometimes beautifully written". Too bad space opera is looked down upon by the sci fi community for the most part.

 

My opinion of the ending is necessarily subjective. As is yours. As is any opinion. Why on earth would that matter? That doesn't mean there isn't a good reason that many fans had such a negative (though subjective) response to the ending. You can't even begin to see where I and the thousands of others who dislike the endings are coming from? That's a problem.

 

I cited it so you would know that I'm not just pulling a self-definition out of my ass. Instead of just flippantly/arrogantly dismissing the source, make an actual argument. That part you singled out as being particularly laughable was probably written to address the fact that some dismiss the genre as hopelessly romantic and annoyingly saccharine. And the fact that the sci-fi community looks down on the genre... guess what? No gives a ****. Star Wars is a space opera and the original trilogy is one of the most beloved and critically acclaimed franchises ever. Did you dislike Mass Effect 1 and 2 and 99% of 3? I doubt it. So why do you care if some elitist group looks down upon it? Christ dude.

 

No, it doesn't though. And no, I wouldn't. There's no central theme to the trilogy. The devs themselves have said as much. However, there are many underlying themes. When your excuse is that it was bad because it abandoned the theme of the series, and the series never had a pronounced theme, then no, I don't see how he did an adequate job explaining why it's bad.

 

In fact, I think it was fans who coined that "unity through diversity" bit (if I'm not mistaken). And considering you could be a xenophobic ass throughout all 3 games, well...

 

 

Being a xenophobic ass ensured that in Mass Effect 3 you were boned as any hope of saving Earth rested in having alien allies to help humanity fight the Reapers. So the unity theme was reinforced by that actually.

 

Regardless if the series had one central theme (works very rarely do), it's abundantly clear that Mass Effect repeatedly tackled a few prominent themes. The themes/motifs I will be listing are reoccurring and pertinent enough throughout the entire trilogy.

 

Unity/Power through diversity

Choices and their consequences (the series is literally based upon this principle)

The value of inspirational leaders

The importance of camaraderie

 

None of these thematic elements are substantiated by the ME3's ending. In fact, they're all contradicted. This is tremendously jarring for the player and the story definitely suffers because of it.

 

It made sense

 

Upon meeting a holographic space child in a hoodie, you are told that in order to stop the Reapers (beings created to kill/harvest organics so they couldn't create synthetics to kill organics), you could try controlling them (the very thing you just killed the Illusive man for trying), assimilating with them (which runs counter to everything Shepard said in Mass Effect 1 and is morally repugnant) or destroying all synthetics (but this isn't a "permanent solution" or something). Once you've made your choice, a colored explosion saves the day. This made sense to you? Did you happen to be experimenting with drugs at the time?

 

And in terms of the previous games having us reasoning with Saren and TIM, whereas we couldn't with the Catalyst, I don't see it as a disconnect. It's what I expected. Not necessarily the Catalyst itself. But I always expected to come face to face with the Reapers and that I wouldn't be able to reason with them. Kyle Reece's words come to mind. It's a machine. It can't be reasoned with or bargained with. They have always been extreme and absolute. Saren and TIM on the other hand, they were Reaper thralls. I'm glad they showed them wrestling with indoctrination and they allowed us to try and break that hold over them.

 

 

I guess, I always felt the whole set up never boded well for our hero. Ancient galactic juggernauts that have never failed in their duties, undefeated in untold millennia, suicide missions, galactic war. Something had to give. And as expected, it did. 

 

I can agree with that. Being able to speech check persuade the Catalyst would've been fairly dumb, this is true. But the fact you couldn't disagree with it on your own terms was where the frustration stemmed from.

 

I too suspected Shepard would die (Mass Effect 2's opening and potential ending proved that it was very possible that Shepard meet a grisly demise), especially since Mass Effect has a lot of messianic symbolism. But nothing could've prepared me for the inane ways he can die. I expected to be overwhelmed by feels the same way I did when Mordin, Legion and Anderson died (all deaths that were handled fantastically). I was prepared to see Joker be shot down by Harbinger trying to buy Shepard time, I was prepared to see squadmates overrun and killed, I was prepared for quite a bit of sadness come the conclusion. But the emotions never came. Instead I watched in hurt incredulity as a barrage of confusing **** occurred before culminating in some Adam and Eve ****.

 

 

Nonetheless, I'm sure Bioware learned a lot from the ending debacle, hopefully they will be better because of it. I still loved Mass Effect 3 and the trilogy will always have a special place in my heart.

[Mcfly616]

1.) "And Mass Effect being a space opera doesn't relegate it to a 'happy', 'walking off into the sunset' ending as you were suggesting."

2.) "He seems to think space operas coincide with happy endings. They don't."

 

 

Thanks for proving my point.

 

 

I clearly stated exactly what you were originally implying. You were saying that the ending went against the themes of the trilogy and specifically the tropes of the genre because it did not have an optimistic ending. Nowhere did I ever say you thought the ending was bad because it wasn't happy. (you bolded the wrong part )

 

I literally said that an optimistic or "happy" ending is not a requirement of a space opera. Which is what you were alluding to.

 

 

 

Yes, I "flippantly" dismiss your laughable source (Wikipedia) as its contributors are nothing but regular everyday neckbeards aka fans. No better than the likes of you and I. Honestly, if "competently and sometimes beautifully written" wasn't a dead giveaway to a biased and/or unreliable illegitimate source, then Idk what is. I know what a space opera entails. You don't need to stoop to the level of Wikipedia.

 

And you bring up Star Wars? Really? Being beloved doesn't mean jack in terms of credibility. I love Star Wars. The lore is especially engrossing. But I can easily admit that A New Hope is overrated, Return of the Jedi is a joke (besides the first half hour) and Empire Strikes Back is the only legitimately "great" movie in the franchise. 

 

 

I can save Earth just fine by using my allies and treating them like dirt just so long as I get what want in the end. Is that really a strong pillar of that "unity through diversity" theme? Not the best example imo. And all those so-called themes you listed are simply what you took from the experience. Which is good. Because that just reinforces all the different ways people are influenced by the series. But none of those are the stated themes of the series. Atleast the ending did play on a few of those. (choices and consequences, leaders, camaraderie)

 

 

 

And this bit:

 

"Upon meeting a holographic space child in a hoodie, you are told that in order to stop the Reapers (beings created to kill/harvest organics so they couldn't create synthetics to kill organics), you could try controlling them (the very thing you just killed the Illusive man for trying), assimilating with them (which runs counter to everything Shepard said in Mass Effect 1 and is morally repugnant) or destroying all synthetics (but this isn't a "permanent solution" or something). Once you've made your choice, a colored explosion saves the day. This made sense to you? "

 

-if this is your argument/explaination on how it doesn't make sense, well, you look silly. And people that hate the ending would even say so. Better come with something better than that. If you don't understand the Catalysts appearance or the significance/irony of the choices and their ties to previous experiences in the series then you haven't been paying attention. Forget about whether it was well executed/implemented or rushed/anti-climactic....if you don't "get" anything of what happened there, then you're not even worth discussing Mass Effect with. 

[God]

Either 'pass the fatty' or 'oh crap, EA deadlines are going to get us fired'.

 

Lazy writing, mixed with corporate deadlines, mixed with a lack of central planned writing tend to do that to video games.

[goishen]

1.   ME1 --  Destroy --  Here, you are introduced to the reapers through the stepping stones of the geth and Saren.  The reapers are only known as big bad guys who need a bullet between the eyes.
2.   ME2 --  Synthesize --  Here, EDI is introduced and is an integral, yet non-killable, member of your crew.  As long as your Shepard survives, so will EDI.  Also of note, the collectors are building a reaper that looks human.  This indicates some synthesizing on their part, as well.
3.   ME3 --  Control  --  TIM's finest hour.  All throughout the game you are constantly bombarded with messages about how he would like to control the reapers.

 

Huh, never thought about it like that before, but there ya go.

[Mcfly616]

Cerberus has been about Control since the very beginning. Ofcourse it's represented more prominently in some games than others. But they've been experimenting on thorian creepers, rachni and Geth for a long time. As a means to control. ME3 was simply a culmination.

[goishen]

Right, but you never knew what they were all about until ME3.   ME2 didn't fully explain it, and you were led to believe it was just a rogue group of scientists who went off on their own, a la Jack.  I mean, Miranda didn't even know and she was the closest person to TIM that we had met up until that point.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Right, but you never knew what they were all about until ME3.   ME2 didn't fully explain it, and you were led to believe it was just a rogue group of scientists who went off on their own, a la Jack.

 

Well... each game changes what the group is about. The only thing that really remains consistent is their loyalty to the chaotic stupid life style.

[Mcfly616]

Right, but you never knew what they were all about until ME3.   ME2 didn't fully explain it, and you were led to believe it was just a rogue group of scientists who went off on their own, a la Jack.

Ehhh, I see what you're saying. Yet, I'd definitely say they were bit more singularly focused than Jack ever was. Jack was chaos in a bottle (in leather?). Cerberus might have went rogue from the Alliance, but they had direction. It might not have been revealed until 3, but it was a logical and fitting progression. Seemed natural after subsequent playthroughs atleast.