333 réponses à ce sujet

[goishen]

See but what I'm saying is that it was withheld from the player.  Looking back on it, with 20/20 hindsight, I can say, "Oh, yah, that's what TIM was up to."   When I was going through it though, it was all a big mystery.  Hell, Cerberus was a big mystery.  I actually had to search planets out and visit them to find out more about what Cerberus was up to (in ME1). 

[Mcfly616]

 When I was going through it though, it was all a big mystery.  Hell, Cerberus was a big mystery.  I actually had to search planets out and visit them to find out more about what Cerberus was up to (in ME1). 

 That's exactly what I loved about it.

 

 

 

In some random underground base in the ass end of the galaxy fighting your way through creatures and arriving at the last door in the place and finding some uppity scientists trying to lie to you even though you know what's up because you decrypted some **** on some terminal at the other ass end of the galaxy.

 

 

Awesome.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Ehhh, I see what you're saying. Yet, I'd definitely say they were bit more singularly focused than Jack ever was. Jack was chaos in a bottle (in leather?). Cerberus might have went rogue from the Alliance, but they had direction. It might not have been revealed until 3, but it was a logical and fitting progression. Seemed natural after subsequent playthroughs atleast.

 

The part about them being an alliance rogue cell was retconned.

[Mcfly616]

The part about them being an alliance rogue cell was retconned.

 are you sure it wasn't said during ME1 that they were a former Alliance Black OP? Could've sworn that was ME1...

 

 

 

Then again, I could be wrong. Cerberus wasn't exactly my biggest interest in the series.

[Element Zero]

are you sure it wasn't said during ME1 that they were a former Alliance Black OP? Could've sworn that was ME1...

That was the story in ME1. It seemed to virtually disappear in ME2, and by ME3 Cerberus was unrecognizable.

[ImaginaryMatter]

 are you sure it wasn't said during ME1 that they were a former Alliance Black OP? Could've sworn that was ME1...

 

In ME1 you're told they were a rogue Alliance cell. That's dropped starting with ME2 where the group originates with the whole manifesto and a terrorist attack thing. The Evolution comic puts the final nail in the coffin but the various tidbits of information that's discovered about the group in the later two games doesn't mesh with them once being part of the Alliance. Nor does anyone or anything address the discrepancy.

[Mcfly616]

In ME1 you're told they were a rogue Alliance cell. That's dropped starting with ME2 where the group originates with the whole manifesto and a terrorist attack thing. The Evolution comic puts the final nail in the coffin but the various tidbits of information that's discovered about the group in the later two games doesn't mesh with them once being part of the Alliance. Nor does anyone or anything address the discrepancy.

Hmm okay, I never paid much attention to the comics. It seemed like from the origins as a rogue black op, to the facade they put on in ME2 whilst hinting their motives at the end, and then finally going all in and not trying to hide anything in ME3, Idk, seems to make sense. 

 

 

But I guess I can see where it could be a stretch for some.

[nickkcin11]

Thanks for proving my point.

 

 

I clearly stated exactly what you were originally implying. You were saying that the ending went against the themes of the trilogy and specifically the tropes of the genre because it did not have an optimistic ending. Nowhere did I ever say you thought the ending was bad because it wasn't happy. (you bolded the wrong part )

 

I literally said that an optimistic or "happy" ending is not a requirement of a space opera. Which is what you were alluding to.

 

 

 

Yes, I "flippantly" dismiss your laughable source (Wikipedia) as its contributors are nothing but regular everyday neckbeards aka fans. No better than the likes of you and I. Honestly, if "competently and sometimes beautifully written" wasn't a dead giveaway to a biased and/or unreliable illegitimate source, then Idk what is. I know what a space opera entails. You don't need to stoop to the level of Wikipedia.

 

And you bring up Star Wars? Really? Being beloved doesn't mean jack in terms of credibility. I love Star Wars. The lore is especially engrossing. But I can easily admit that A New Hope is overrated, Return of the Jedi is a joke (besides the first half hour) and Empire Strikes Back is the only legitimately "great" movie in the franchise. 

 

 

I can save Earth just fine by using my allies and treating them like dirt just so long as I get what want in the end. Is that really a strong pillar of that "unity through diversity" theme? Not the best example imo. And all those so-called themes you listed are simply what you took from the experience. Which is good. Because that just reinforces all the different ways people are influenced by the series. But none of those are the stated themes of the series. Atleast the ending did play on a few of those. (choices and consequences, leaders, camaraderie)

 

 

 

And this bit:

 

"Upon meeting a holographic space child in a hoodie, you are told that in order to stop the Reapers (beings created to kill/harvest organics so they couldn't create synthetics to kill organics), you could try controlling them (the very thing you just killed the Illusive man for trying), assimilating with them (which runs counter to everything Shepard said in Mass Effect 1 and is morally repugnant) or destroying all synthetics (but this isn't a "permanent solution" or something). Once you've made your choice, a colored explosion saves the day. This made sense to you? "

 

-if this is your argument/explaination on how it doesn't make sense, well, you look silly. And people that hate the ending would even say so. Better come with something better than that. If you don't understand the Catalysts appearance or the significance/irony of the choices and their ties to previous experiences in the series then you haven't been paying attention. Forget about whether it was well executed/implemented or rushed/anti-climactic....if you don't "get" anything of what happened there, then you're not even worth discussing Mass Effect with. 

 

Your ignorance is staggering. You don't know what the word implied means, nor do you understand how Wikipedia articles are made. It's sad really. That quote was taken from a well respected Hugo award winning literary critic who has a Phd. in literature. This isn't 1990, Wikipedia is widely accepted as a credible source. Plus, not sure how saying that the genre is "sometimes x" proves it's biased. If you have such contempt for the genre, I question the intelligence of spending time on a forum for a game that is a paradigm of a space opera.

 

Being critically/commercially/culturally beloved doesn't have any meaning to you? At all? Meh, your misplaced arrogance doesn't really surprise me anymore. I'd be pretty embarrassed if I had to say "I love the franchise, but it kinda sucks when you think about it" to try to prove my point. Just admit the genre isn't as pathetic as you're trying to maintain.

 

The ending didn't touch upon any of those themes in the slightest. It neglects to factor in any prior choices which was the parti the trilogy was based upon. I want to facepalm every time you try to bring up my lack of objectivity as if that's the least bit relevant to this form of criticism. It's just a cheap way of dismissing valid arguments because you have contempt for thought. Who cares what themes were explicitly stated by the developers, these are reoccuring, reinformed, really ****** obvious, can't-miss-them-they're-all-over-the-goddamn-place themes. Every work can be subjectively interpreted, and yes there will be diverse opinions. But if, for example, you read The Fountainhead (picked because its theme is abundantly clear) and couldn't tell it was about individualism, you've missed the point.

Yep, that's my "explaination". In my humble opinion (which I respect) it was a damn good one too. Let those people speak for themselves, I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate being represented by you. There are so many plot holes in the original ending that to pretend it makes sense is impossible. Literally impossible. Can't be done. A square circle of reasoning. The Catalyst, who's almost universally disliked? Yea, I know he's the boy whose death triggers your PTSD. It's still retarded. Perhaps even more so. Jumping into a beam of light to change everyone's genetics. Stupid. I agree, forget those things you've listed. The ending is still absolutely nonsensical.

 

My verdict.

[Daemul]

The part about them being an alliance rogue cell was retconned.

Cerberus starting as an Alliance Black Ops who went rogue is brought up by the two privates guarding the entrance to the War Room on the Normandy in ME3.

[goishen]

So, let me get this straight.  

 

If you had seen Shepard shooting Wrex, Mordin, Kaiden/Ashley getting killed, Tali killing herself, all in the last minute of the game, you would be happy?  Because that would have "represented our choices"?  So, it's not the last ten minutes of the game that you're upset with, it's the last minute?

 

I'm just trying to see if I have this correct?

[SilJeff]

Just because cerberus was able to grow exponentially through reaper tech doesn't mean their origins changed. The reapers just changed cerberus's methods via indoctrination that finally reached the final stage by 3

[pdusen]

Would you guys believe I completely missed Cerberus on my first ME1 playthrough?

 

I was understandably confused by everyone's concern about Cerberus at the beginning of ME2.

[Vazgen]

Quote from Drew Karpyshyn

 

Of course, some of you are also pinging me to find out what the “original” ending of the series was when we started planning out the trilogy. Sorry, but that’s not something I’m even going to attempt to answer. The collaborative creative process is incredibly complicated, and the story and ideas are constantly evolving as you go forward. Yes, we had a plan, but it was very vague. We knew we wanted to focus on some key themes and bring in certain key elements: organics vs synthetics; the Reapers; the Mass Relays. Beyond that, we didn’t go into detail because we knew it would change radically as the game continued to evolve.

A good example of this is Cerberus. When we wrote ME1, Cerberus was basically a throw-away group of pro-human radicals: a name we dropped for some side missions to play the role of villain. We didn’t even have a concept of who was running them, and we didn’t think they were that important. Obviously by the time of my Ascension novel and ME2, that had changed radically. The Illusive Man and Cerberus became central to the story and themes – that never would have happened if we had nailed everything down and refused to make changes to the story.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Cerberus starting as an Alliance Black Ops who went rogue is brought up by the two privates guarding the entrance to the War Room on the Normandy in ME3.

 

They must have only read the ME1 Codex then.

 

The comic plus everything we learn about the group in ME2 says differently.

[Dubozz]

What went through the wrtier's mind when they came up with this ending?

Deus Ex HR or the old one. So much for "artistic vision".

[spinachdiaper]

They were trying to trap everyone by offering up what they thought were two morally grey choices and the hard to get ultimate happy ending, but most people never had sympathy for or humanized the Geth or Edi and saw nothing wrong with destroy, while treating synthesis as a fate worst than complete galactic genocide which they added later with the done in completely poor taste ending refuse.

[NM_Che56]

Is there anything actually left of this horse? Seriously, I think the bones have actually been beaten into dust at this point.

Nope.  There's some marrow left.

[NM_Che56]

Oh...and it's been almost 3 years...

 

[Maniccc]

To answer the OP I can only say...LSD flashback?

[prosthetic soul]

Oh...and it's been almost 3 years...

 

Hold the line. 

 

And for the love of GOD, the endings WERE bad because Shepard died in all four endings!  That is a valid criticism!  I am tired of repeating myself!  Don't make me break out the copy and paste thing again! 

[goishen]

/facepalm

[I Am Robot]

Alright. The difference between him and the catalyst, Is that he didn't tell you that organics and synthetics have to kill each others for no obvious reason. He didn't force a belief on you.

 

 

To be fair why synthetics and organics fight was explained by the catalyst. He said something along the lines of " Organics wish to improve their lives through the use of technology....but the technology will at some point surpass it's creator". I'm sure you can find the exact lines on YT or something. Once the synthetics have surpassed the abilities of their creators, they probably won't wanna serve the creators anymore. Thus the conflict. 

 

Also I don't think the synthetic vs organic idea was something that was pulled out of thin air for ME3. It was set up throughout the series and in ME2. Think about the quarians and the geth, and how the council enforces strict regulations on AI research. EDI and Legion also further tied the concept to the fabric of the series. In ME2 as well as ME3 EDI attempted to understand and apply behaviors associated with organics, and legion is taking his first step towards breaking away from the collective and becoming an individual in ME2. 

[SilJeff]

Hold the line. 

 

And for the love of GOD, the endings WERE bad because Shepard died in all four endings!  That is a valid criticism!  I am tired of repeating myself!  Don't make me break out the copy and paste thing again! 

 

You say that now, but if you are still here three years later, even if it is just to whine about the ending, you will most likely own 4 once it comes out.

[Mcfly616]

 There are so many plot holes in the original ending that to pretend it makes sense is impossible. 

 You blab and blab and blab. With nothing of substance. The endings are tied to many themes of the game. Just not what you wanted. Plain and simple. 

 

 

Go ahead. List a plot hole in the Extended Cut. List a single plot hole that is unable to be explained. I'm sure you'll list some garbage quote, reference some completely unrelated form of media, and then go on with your own subjectivity and try to pass it off as some sort of fact, whilst believing you've proved some sort of point. Which you have yet to do. You type a lot, but really aren't saying jack ****.

[I Am Robot]

They were trying to trap everyone by offering up what they thought were two morally grey choices and the hard to get ultimate happy ending, but most people never had sympathy for or humanized the Geth or Edi and saw nothing wrong with destroy, while treating synthesis as a fate worst than complete galactic genocide which they added later with the done in completely poor taste ending refuse.

 

People who did not value the lives of the geth or EDI as highly as any other don't think that synthetic life can be sentient or self conscious. I respect the opinion of these people though I completely disagree with it. And trust me when I tell you that their opinion will be challenged in the coming decades.... and not only in entertainment related media.