206 réponses à ce sujet

[Amaldur1]

I think this discussion has moved a bit sideways and away from the original point. The problem is not that Bioware showed something that later didn't make it into the game. The problem is that the game they released is just so much less interesting and engaging than what they showed.

 

The response, "all games change, you shouldn't have believe pre-alpha video" is a perfectly good response if someone is complaining merely that they made changes. It is not, however, a good response to the fact that the game moved in the wrong direction. The choices Bioware made after that video made the game dumber, made choices matter less, made the gameplay more static. Those are bad choices.

 

That's the problem here. It's remarkable how much less dynamic and interesting the game is now than it appears to be in that video.

[pdusen]

And...you don't realize that you just said the same thing I did, do you?

 

Who says I was arguing with you?

[pdusen]

I think this discussion has moved a bit sideways and away from the original point. The problem is not that Bioware showed something that later didn't make it into the game. The problem is that the game they released is just so much less interesting and engaging than what they showed.

 

The response, "all games change, you shouldn't have believe pre-alpha video" is a perfectly good response if someone is complaining merely that they made changes. It is not, however, a good response to the fact that the game moved in the wrong direction. The choices Bioware made after that video made the game dumber, made choices matter less, made the gameplay more static. Those are bad choices.

 

That's the problem here. It's remarkable how much less dynamic and interesting the game is now than it appears to be in that video.

 

That argument presupposes that a lot of the game was like that. More likely that, beyond what we were shown, a lot of the game just wasn't finished, and they just went in another direction as development continued.

 

You can't say that the whole game is less dynamic and interesting than it was then, based solely on the half-hour or so of gameplay in that video.

[Amaldur1]

That argument presupposes that a lot of the game was like that. More likely that, beyond what we were shown, a lot of the game just wasn't finished, and they just went in another direction as development continued.

 

You can't say that the whole game is less dynamic and interesting than it was then, based solely on the half-hour or so of gameplay in that video.

 

Well, if the game wasn't like that and they were just showing us the one area that had that sort of dynamic content, then that raises another issue, doesn't it? The idea should be that when a game company is showing you game play footage it is representative of what the game experience will be like. Saying that the entire game might not have been like that doesn't really address the fundamental issue that they showed us much more exciting game play than we got.

[Heimdall]

Well, if the game wasn't like that and they were just showing us the one area that had that sort of dynamic content, then that raises another issue, doesn't it? The idea should be that when a game company is showing you game play footage it is representative of what the game experience will be like. Saying that the entire game might not have been like that doesn't really address the fundamental issue that they showed us much more exciting game play than we got.

Yes, it does, because the devs certainly intended to implement those features throughout the game at the time. They showed a demo that was representative of the game plan AT THE TIME.

[Amaldur1]

Yes, it does, because the devs certainly intended to implement those features throughout the game at the time. They showed a demo that was representative of the game plan AT THE TIME.

 

Right, that's what I would say as well. And then the point is that they made changes to that game plan that made the game less dynamic, less meaningful, less interesting. That's what I think that video shows and that's what is so disappointing.

[Maniccc]

Who says I was arguing with you?

Sorry, my mistake.

[Reguire]

I hate the Witcher games, can't even play them.  I just hate the combat so very much.  Clunky, stupid, tedious, boring....  I just can't play it, I start to fall asleep.

what a noob.

[Heimdall]

Right, that's what I would say as well. And then the point is that they made changes to that game plan that made the game less dynamic, less meaningful, less interesting. That's what I think that video shows and that's what is so disappointing.

Except you have no way of knowing what the cost-benefit of those decisions was. They certainly didn't do it to spite you.

[SkyKing]

Yes, it does, because the devs certainly intended to implement those features throughout the game at the time. They showed a demo that was representative of the game plan AT THE TIME.

 

Where is the subsequent news, release, or demo where they explain they decided NOT to use any of that? hmm??? 

[panamakira]

This is the reason most developers don't allow fans such an inside look to the making of process. And I'm pretty sure Bioware will never do it again.

Yep I was about to post this. Yes I agree the pre-Alpha game seemed more engaging to the mission we got in Crestwood but I almost wish Bioware wouldn't show pre-Alpha video to fans. I understand things get cut and I wouldn't trade the races for anything really. We finally got female Qunari for the Maker's sake. 

 

It starts this type of conversation that is frankly uncalled for. We're not there during their development process so we don't know the exact reason it got cut (Mind you it looked fantastic) but I bet BW will not show us this again. They're going to become even more tight lipped about dev time.

 

Main reason I think they're staying quiet about DLC.

[outlaw1109]

*Could* they add in similar changes via DLC?

 

I have no idea how a game is made, but the differences between the current game and the opportunities discussed in the Crestwood video seem quite significant. 

I *assume* they could.  I'm guessing that it wasn't IMPOSSIBLE to include the content that's missing, but just costly.  So, to circumvent publishing demands, they cut it and will be working on ways to implement cut content back into the game.  The timed missions are likely not mechanically impossible, they were just costly to debug and script correctly.  Just my take.  If it already was a part of the game, it seem logical that it would fit back into it after debugging and scripting.  The thing is, they PROBABLY just decided that there was a lot of extra work involved and would only be able to contribute resources to said work if packaged separate from the game.

 

While I don't entirely disagree, I should point out that The ME3 Ending was not the only Free DLC which Bioware put out for the game. Don't forget that new maps and character classes were added to ME3 multiplayer for like a year after release. For free.

No multiplayer DLC was ever charged for.

We've also already had done free DAI multiplayer content. And that will continue. And there were the freebies for ME2, if you registered your game.

Sure it's not like a full expansion of anything, but it's hardly unprecedented.

See...IMO, multiplayer content is a little less work than the DLC I pay for.  (story dlc).  Armor DLC, weapon DLC, or any cosmetic DLC is relatively easy to develop.  Heck, IIRC, some of the multiplayer DLC releases were just map packs...maps are, generally speaking, easier (by far) to make.

So, I guess in my own head, I didn't consider them.  Your argument is valid, but I remain skeptical about any substantial content being free.

 

I also blame consoles on this. I bet they cut a TON of stuff also because the files would be too large and maybe they couldn't fit enough on the disk for it to be acceptable for a console game whereas PC can be as big as anything.  And they should have released the game full version with PC and consoles w/ the dumbed down cut stuff.  If console gamers want a bigger better game, they can pay for the gear needed to support it.  But PC gamers shouldn't have their stuff cut or stupified so console gamers aren't jealous because their system can't handle any more. 

 

Some of this is innaccurate.  Disc space allocations are an issue for PC as much as they are for consoles.  Last time I checked, PC games still use DVD formatting, which holds less informating than discs formatted for use by consoles.

 

Show me a single PC game that became a console priority on subsequent releases and continuation that actually improved the game.  

Origins...oh, wait...that was a console port too...this entire series has been console ports.  Given the wide "success" of DAO, I'd say we can stop blaming consoles.

[holdenagincourt]

A lot of the Skyhold/keep stuff was either definitely cut or feels as if it had been planned to be bigger, then shrunk down on the final pass.

 

Skhold has a lot of interesting rooms with no apparent purpose (a sort of barracks-type keep about equidistant between the Inquisitor's tower and Cullen's room, an underground dining room/hall with zero furniture, a subterranean library with more bookshelves than the actual library).

 

Skyhold improvements are lackluster, especially compared to how richly decorated and improved upon the liberated keeps become compared to their appearance when first encountered.

 

Keeps don't really evolve or play any role in future missions, which is a huge waste and one of my major disappointments, as I loved the Keep concept. The feeling when Griffon Wing Keep is first captured and filled with merchants, soldiers and decorations everywhere was just magical.

 

There seem to be several places in the world that were intended to be keeps at one point in development, but then were scrapped when the Keep mechanic was pared back. Hargrave Keep flies Inquisition banners and is a great counterweight in the southern, most difficult to access part of an already forbidding map with only two Inquisition outposts. There are also bits of lore that imply its former prosperity, and you can dispatch and ally with the Avvar who would have claim to its vicinity. A similar situation obtains with Grand Forest Villa, which is a golden opportunity for a Keep conversion in a remote part of the Hinterlands, basically the Inquisition's backyard. And post-civil war, why not have the reigning Orlesian monarch grant the Inquisition Citadelle du Corbeau or Fort Revesan? In all of these cases, I honestly thought I was about to capture my first keep of the game, only to be disappointed.

 

All of the above are areas that I hope BioWare will implement in added content/paid DLC. Skyhold/Keep stuff is priority number one for me personally, as I love the "bringing order" and "helping the population" parts of Inquisition. To me, this is what gives the Inquisition and the Inquisitor legitimacy and a true legacy, not the Mark, which could have happened to any oaf.

[davepissedatending]

I wonder if the game was dumbed down due to time or they made the demo look better on purpose so they made better hype for it.

Anyway it is a damn shame so many features were cut.

you can get that armor in game heres a vid of where to find it

[SkyKing]

 

 

 

Origins...oh, wait...that was a console port too...this entire series has been console ports.  Given the wide "success" of DAO, I'd say we can stop blaming consoles.

 

WRONG.  Origins was made for PC, it was a PC port for consoles.  DAI was made for consoles.  

[Nefla]

A depressing reminder  . I wonder if the reason that whole, seemingly complete segment was cut is because people would go "why is this the only interesting regional quest in the entire game?" The keeps as they are don't even have a purpose beyond an extra shop and a quick travel point.

[SkyKing]

A lot of the Skyhold/keep stuff was either definitely cut or feels as if it had been planned to be bigger, then shrunk down on the final pass.

 

Skhold has a lot of interesting rooms with no apparent purpose (a sort of barracks-type keep about equidistant between the Inquisitor's tower and Cullen's room, an underground dining room/hall with zero furniture, a subterranean library with more bookshelves than the actual library).

 

Skyhold improvements are lackluster, especially compared to how richly decorated and improved upon the liberated keeps become compared to their appearance when first encountered.

 

Keeps don't really evolve or play any role in future missions, which is a huge waste and one of my major disappointments, as I loved the Keep concept. The feeling when Griffon Wing Keep is first captured and filled with merchants, soldiers and decorations everywhere was just magical.

 

There seem to be several places in the world that were intended to be keeps at one point in development, but then were scrapped when the Keep mechanic was pared back. Hargrave Keep flies Inquisition banners and is a great counterweight in the southern, most difficult to access part of an already forbidding map with only two Inquisition outposts. There are also bits of lore that imply its former prosperity, and you can dispatch and ally with the Avvar who would have claim to its vicinity. A similar situation obtains with Grand Forest Villa, which is a golden opportunity for a Keep conversion in a remote part of the Hinterlands, basically the Inquisition's backyard. And post-civil war, why not have the reigning Orlesian monarch grant the Inquisition Citadelle du Corbeau or Fort Revesan? In all of these cases, I honestly thought I was about to capture my first keep of the game, only to be disappointed.

 

All of the above are areas that I hope BioWare will implement in added content/paid DLC. Skyhold/Keep stuff is priority number one for me personally, as I love the "bringing order" and "helping the population" parts of Inquisition. To me, this is what gives the Inquisition and the Inquisitor legitimacy and a true legacy, not the Mark, which could have happened to any oaf.

 

 

Yup good points.  Also even in hinterlands that big keep, very detailed, where you just kill a generic boss bandit and it's never used again, definitely had a higher purpose originally.  The purpose for these keeps is shown in that demo video with what you could do with them. All these zones were developed and the keeps there for those reasons then all of that stuff was cut.  That's why the game is 80% filler quests, because 80% of the game was cut and they had all this empty space so they dumped dead bodies everywhere with stupid notes to drop the note to a tree across the zone and all the fanboys singing how great this game is.  EA and Bioware are stroking it to the thought of everybody eating and enjoying what they shat out instead of what was originally planned and promised.  

[SkyKing]

A depressing reminder  . I wonder if the reason that whole, seemingly complete segment was cut is because people would go "why is this the only interesting regional quest in the entire game?" The keeps as they are don't even have a purpose beyond an extra shop and a quick travel point.

Because all those keeps purposes were similar to that one.  

[Nefla]

Yup good points.  Also even in hinterlands that big keep, very detailed, where you just kill a generic boss bandit and it's never used again, definitely had a higher purpose originally.  The purpose for these keeps is shown in that demo video with what you could do with them. All these zones were developed and the keeps there for those reasons then all of that stuff was cut.  That's why the game is 80% filler quests, because 80% of the game was cut and they had all this empty space so they dumped dead bodies everywhere with stupid notes to drop the note to a tree across the zone and all the fanboys singing how great this game is.  EA and Bioware are stroking it to the thought of everybody eating and enjoying what they shat out instead of what was originally planned and promised.  

It seems like they made the right decision then, based on how many people will jump to the defense of the fetch quests and call notes along the lines of "the inquisition killed Sister Blah, she always was a weakling, I will be at this spot I shall conveniently mark on your map" great storytelling, and if we don't agree then we're just a bunch of illiterate idiots who "don't get it" I guess we're just not "deep" enough  .

[outlaw1109]

WRONG.  Origins was made for PC, it was a PC port for consoles.  DAI was made for consoles.  

Your definition of "console port" is obviously different, then.  Origins was released across all platforms simultaneously.  So...for it to be a PC port to console, that would require it to be released on PC first and then ported to console.  This was not the case.

[Lord of Mu]

Yup good points.  Also even in hinterlands that big keep, very detailed, where you just kill a generic boss bandit and it's never used again, definitely had a higher purpose originally.  The purpose for these keeps is shown in that demo video with what you could do with them. All these zones were developed and the keeps there for those reasons then all of that stuff was cut.  That's why the game is 80% filler quests, because 80% of the game was cut and they had all this empty space so they dumped dead bodies everywhere with stupid notes to drop the note to a tree across the zone and all the fanboys singing how great this game is.  EA and Bioware are stroking it to the thought of everybody eating and enjoying what they shat out instead of what was originally planned and promised.  

 

I at least felt that way with a lot of the keeps, fortresses, and ruins I ran past. I certainly felt that I could have a lot of the structures repaired and rebuild to be used for the Inquisition. I'm remaining hopeful that we'll see some DLC content that will add all of the cut content back in.

[SkyKing]

I wonder how great the game was originally going to be.  All the generic fetch quests are definitely to cover up cut stuff.  That crestwood scene was very indepth.  Invading boats, choosing what to defend, not only attacking the enemy but the boats.  Then what the keep is being used for.  And all these other zones would be getting period attacks by the enemy, etc.  

 

So every time you see one of the 500 dead bodies with a note, "er I died, deliver my porn stash to the twisted oak in zone A",  etc, there was originally more meaningful content. 

[SkyKing]

I at least felt that way with a lot of the keeps, fortresses, and ruins I ran past. I certainly felt that I could have a lot of the structures repaired and rebuild to be used for the Inquisition. I'm remaining hopeful that we'll see some DLC content that will add all of the cut content back in.

 

I had been expecting that in my first play.  Especially when one of the keeps in the entire game had an option to repair water pipes for spies, etc, I was just waiting for when the game would take off with attacks or more upgrades and building them up. Then the game ended.  

[SkyKing]

Your definition of "console port" is obviously different, then.  Origins was released across all platforms simultaneously.  So...for it to be a PC port to console, that would require it to be released on PC first and then ported to console.  This was not the case.

 

The game was designed for PC, PC was the target and priority then they adapted it for consoles.  For DAI it was designed for consoles then adapted to pc hence the major dumbing down of it. 

[outlaw1109]

The game was designed for PC, PC was the target and priority then they adapted it for consoles.  For DAI it was designed for consoles then adapted to pc hence the major dumbing down of it. 

so, Bioware told you this?  Or you were there, man?  Seriously, they say things in advertising that isn't true.  Like "this game was designed for PC".  Or that "this is the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate".  I had more bugs on the PC version of it than I did for the Xbox360, so...

Edit:  Also, DAI had similar advertising:  "For PC by PC gamers" or some such nonsense.
 

 

I at least felt that way with a lot of the keeps, fortresses, and ruins I ran past. I certainly felt that I could have a lot of the structures repaired and rebuild to be used for the Inquisition. I'm remaining hopeful that we'll see some DLC content that will add all of the cut content back in.

 

I also remain hopeful.  I'll gladly pay for DLC that will flesh out the areas a little better.