96 réponses à ce sujet

[wolfhowwl]

Money.

 

ME3 had the largest word budget of all the games but it had to be stretched across various scenarios like Wrex/Wreav, Mordin/Padok, Legion/Geth VI, and so on.

[Vazgen]

ME2's dialogue wheel was completely balanced? Really?

Instead of Paragon vs Renegade in ME3 you get less Paragon/Renegade vs more Paragon/Renegade. I wouldn't call it balanced. Not to mention paraphrases not correlating to Shepard's words.

Meeting Jacob

Paraphrase "Who are you?" 

Dialogue "Are you with Miranda?"

 

Autodialogue is a bad thing to have in role playing game, period. But let's not bring ME2 as shining example of everything done right in dialogue system or we might get something similar in ME:Next *shudders*

[Vazgen]

yeah the reputation system was bad in both ME1( why didn't you mention that one) and ME2

but apart from that ME2 definitely had a good dialouge system a lot better than 3

 

and also better than ME1 because Shepard didn't say the exact same thing no matter what dialouge option

I think reputation system was at its worst in ME2 because it basically forced you to choose Paragon or Renegade options to be able to pass dialogue checks later on. ME1 had Charm/Intimidate points that you could fill and know that you'll be able to succeed at all checks. And ME3 has a Reputation bar that serves the same purpose. ME2 has some background calculations that not everyone will be able to figure out on their first playthrough, to say the least. 

 

As dialogue wheel itself, I think ME1 has the best one. It has all three options and almost no autodialogue. It would've been great if Shepard didn't say the same thing regardless of what you pick in certain instances but even considering it, ME1 dialogue wheel is the best.

[Maniccc]

Really?  That was the "most disappointing part"?

[Linkenski]

like seriously what were they thinking? I would be ok with it if ME3 was a standalone game (like in Deus Ex Hr. Adam Jensen also has a pre defined personality) but as a sequel to ME1+2 it fails horribly

 

 

Shepard no longer feels like my Shep he is somehow loyal to the alliance (isn't pissed at all with what they did in ME2 and after that Arrival) he has this default personality and just keeps talking and talking almost without any input from me

 

 

some Auto-Dialouge is ok so conversations feel more natural but they went too far with it in ME3 and why on earth did they drop ME2's dialouge wheel? it was perfectly balanced

Its just like the ending along the way Mac and Casey seem to have forgot that ME is a roleplaying series and instead they wanted to tell their story with their default Shepard -.-

Ruined the game for me, for sure. Sometimes I wonder if all my lashing out at its bad writing could've been fixed if only my Shepard had the opportunity to stay consistent to his ME1 and ME2 personality type. (because ME2 is a GOAT for me -- I never felt it was a step down or anything) So many lines that made me furrow my brow in dislike.

 

"I'll sleep when I'm dead!" -- just shut up Shepard. Don't talk unless I order you to, dammit!

[Linkenski]

Money.

 

ME3 had the largest word budget of all the games but it had to be stretched across various scenarios like Wrex/Wreav, Mordin/Padok, Legion/Geth VI, and so on.

Exactly or "resources" as Bioware usually calls them.

 

It was because animation work couldn't keep up with the amount of voiced dialogue I think, which also explained why Shepard had so many non-cinematic auto-conversations on the Normandy with his squad.

 

You can even see in some of them that the lip-movements are completely basic and not properly animated. So in the end, maybe there was just no way around it. EA was probably the sinners here for giving too short time and perhaps not a big enough budget (although I know ME3 was the most expensive game from Bioware at the time. It needed to be exponentially more expensive to make than ME2 to capture what they originally envisioned with their trilogy though).

[CronoDragoon]

I think auto-dialogue is less of the problem here than bad dialogue lines. The rampant praise for Lair of the Shadow Broker demonstrates that the fanbase doesn't actually mind auto-dialogue if the lines themselves are smartly written.

 

Auto-dialogue certainly has its benefits as well as drawbacks. There are some scenes in ME3 that I think work much better with auto-dialogue. Doing Rannoch with a Tali romance is a good example, because the "I love you" - "Keelah se'lai" exchange has a certain rhythm and rising tension to the boss fight that would have been lost with a dialogue wheel.

 

In general, the Dragon Age team has done much better work with the dialogue wheel than the Mass Effect team. Even DA2 was much better than any ME game in terms of RP opportunities. I'm afraid that at this point Mass Effect can never get rid of the Paragon/Renegade system as its too iconic, but if it ever managed to incorporate the intricate dialogue wheels that DA boasts I'd be very happy.

[wolfhowwl]

Yeah, the DA team had the advantage of iterating on someone else's work as well never having that KOTOR baggage with a morality system.

[wright1978]

I wouldn't describe auto-dialogue as the most disappointing part. That podium place goes well and truly to the utter trainwreck of an ending.

 

However i do agree the characterising auto-dialogue was a big problem. Very disappointing that in the final game of a trilogy, likely to try to appeal to new players they decided to instil a fixed characterisation on what had previous been a player characterised protagonist. Spent all game trying to stay immersed in my character, despite the constant attempts by the ME3 team to rip my character from my hands. Lots of headcanon and memory wiping required if your Shep deviated from their new auto idiot shep character.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Money.

 

ME3 had the largest word budget of all the games but it had to be stretched across various scenarios like Wrex/Wreav, Mordin/Padok, Legion/Geth VI, and so on.

Actually it had nothing to do with money. Mac Walters said that they went with that direction after he played Uncharted and liked the way the scenes were fluid since they weren't in player control. Of course thats when someone in Bioware should have reminded him that it's an RPG, but I'm sure that employee speculated he may have been fired for saying so.

 

Furthermore DAI managed to have a very large game dialogue wise and include probably more dialogue options for the protagonist than in the entire ME trilogy combined. At minimum 3 dialogue options at a time, 99% input in what your character says, and the investigate options have investigate options. Sometime the entire wheel was maxed out. And don't even get me started on the massive amount of characteristic/player permutations you can have just through the dialogue options alone in that game. I'm glad one Bioware team understands the biggest factor in player ownership and series replayability.

[NM_Che56]

THAT was the most disappointing part of the game for ya...?

[pdusen]

As dialogue wheel itself, I think ME1 has the best one. It has all three options and almost no autodialogue. 

 

I'm sorry, but I just freshly played through the trilogy, and all three games have plenty of autodialogue. Granted, ME3 had the most (as a percentage), but saying ME1 had "almost none" is just wrong.

[NM_Che56]

I want to have the ability to ask Garrus if he's allergic to peanut butter because IMMERSION!!!

[Wulfram]

I'm sorry, but I just freshly played through the trilogy, and all three games have plenty of autodialogue. Granted, ME3 had the most (as a percentage), but saying ME1 had "almost none" is just wrong.

"You're just a machine and machines can be broken"

Sometimes I think they have auto-dialogue just so we can't escape the cheesy one-liners

[Vazgen]

I'm sorry, but I just freshly played through the trilogy, and all three games have plenty of autodialogue. Granted, ME3 had the most (as a percentage), but saying ME1 had "almost none" is just wrong.

Perhaps I remember it wrong. I have to replay it to say for certain. I do remember that there were some instances where I actually thought that player input is not really required. 

[wright1978]

I'm sorry, but I just freshly played through the trilogy, and all three games have plenty of autodialogue. Granted, ME3 had the most (as a percentage), but saying ME1 had "almost none" is just wrong.

Well it's characterising auto-dialogue that is the problem in me3, rather than bland neutral variety.

[Iakus]

 

exactly thats the main problem Mac& Casey just made their own version of Shepard and forced it on the players

my Shepard from ME1+ME2 was barely in ME3

 

 

 

 

Ding ding ding!

 

We have a winner!

[Drone223]

 

exactly thats the main problem Mac& Casey just made their own version of Shepard and forced it on the players

my Shepard from ME1+ME2 was barely in ME3

 

 

Actually Patrick Weeks said the main goal was to improve the flow of dialogue, its just it wasn't well executed. There was no sinister conspiracy set up by Mac & Casey.

[Drone223]

very silly of them to think that players would like their Shepard taken away from them and turned into some boring MacShep for the sake of the flow of dialogue

Except Bioware clearly had no intention on taking away control of Shepard when it comes to dialogue it just needed to be better excited.

[MrFob]

I agree that the auto dialogue, together with the consistent lack of a middle option on the wheel was one of the worst irritations in ME3.

While of course, in ME1, often the middle option would result in the same line as one of the other options, it still had two effects, whihc are very important IMO:

1. As Vazgen said, at least for the first playthrough it does disguise the fact that there is a lack of options. And the first playthrough is the one that for me leaves the most important impression.

2. Even more importantly, for me, choosing an option, even if the lone is ultimately the same, changes it's context. It can give me a different perspective on the dialogue and the decision that I made. An example is the council decision in ME1. I don't remember now if renegade and neutral actually had the same line (they may not have) but let's just assume they did and Shepard just says something like "Don't go after the Destiny Ascension, concentrate only on Sovereign".

Now, it does make a difference for me if on the wheel, I choose the option "Let the council die!!!" or "We cannot afford to help the Destiny Ascension".

I am glad, I get the opportunity to roleplay this, even if there were no paragon/renegade points attached to it. And no, it is not a fake coice because it matters to my own idea of who my Shepard is.

 

Mind you, I don't want to defend multiple options that all lead to the same dialogue line. I do hope that they improve on this in ME4 but I do think that it was a mistake to remove the middle option in almost all dialogue in ME3.